The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

ClementofA

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Examples from current times are irrelevant.

The examples i gave (which you didn't refute but dismissed & diverted onto a different issue) proved wrong the logic of your opposites theory in the following statement:

"If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” means “forever and forever.” "

The words "no rest day or night" do not equal 'forever and ever', so your point & theory re Rev.14:11 fails.

As i said:

If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not necessarily forever.

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Chapter Five
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
 
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Major1

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I do not agree with you, sir, or your limited atonement dogma wherein God loves some but hates most whom He sadistically torments for eternity. That characterization may make Him appear even worse than Allah of Islam.

There is no such thing in the Bible as Love Omnipotent sadistically burning or tormenting His created offspring in fire for endless ages. Though that is much like the god of Islam. I am happy that my Lord & God as Scripture reveals Him is Love, righteous, just, good, merciful and fair.

If you want to pretend the Scriptures make God like the Allah of Islam so you can be in agreement with the Tradition of the church division, er denomination, that you belong to, not lose all your friends, not be persecuted for Christ's sake, or to make yourself feel superior to others, you'll regret it later & miss out on the blessings of the truth that sets people free.

"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

I am LOL! You do not agree with me so your answer is to try and make me to be a MUSLIM?????

I guess I could respond to your comment by saying that those who teah Falsely of there NOT being an eternal place or torment are Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, Herbert W. Armstrong/plain truth magazine and the list goes on and on. Are YOU one of those denominations???

God bless you my friend!

You just said..............
"There is no such thing in the Bible as Love Omnipotent sadistically burning or tormenting His created offspring in fire for endless ages."

BUT the Bible says in..........
Matt. 18:8...............
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,"

Matt. 25:46...........
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

2 Thess. 1:9...........
"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 7........
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire".

Jude 12-13...........
"These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever,".

Rev. 19:3...........
"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever".

Rev. 20:10........
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,".

Matt. 3:12 says........
"And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Mark 9:43 says.........
"And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire."

The word "unquenchable" is asbestos in the Greek------- According to the Enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned

Luke 16:25..............
"So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

The following citations are from Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is asbestos in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end............
YOU are free to believe as you wish and you are free to think that I am a Muslim (Now that is really funny) but I am going to believe the Word of God my friend as found in the Bible.

Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes they are!!!
 
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Major1

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The examples i gave (which you didn't refute but dismissed & diverted onto a different issue) proved wrong the logic of your opposites theory in the following statement:

"If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” means “forever and forever.” "

The words "no rest day or night" do not equal 'forever and ever', so your point & theory re Rev.14:11 fails.

As i said:

If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not necessarily forever.

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Chapter Five
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

forever and ever

foreverGK.gif

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"

Eternal - without end
Eternal Damnation
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great harlot of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal, and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

Is Hell Eternal? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
 
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Der Alte

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I did read it. What would make anyone think otherwise?
Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":
..
I wonder if when Paul wrote "for a moment" he was thinking aion "can be an 'age' of a 'finite period.'" Or did he know that αἰώνιος is synonymous with ἀΐ́διος as he used it in Rom 1:20? I think the Universalist argument just bit the dust.
Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 
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eleos1954

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In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.

"Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture"

If "eternal torture" means burning in hell for ever and ever ... not so.

Couple of reasons:

God says the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. 2nd Rerserrection -

God promises eternal immortality to the saved. If it is believed "eternal torture" then these folks (the wicked lost) would have immortality as well ... not a very enjoyable, but immortality just the same.
 
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Major1

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I wonder if when Paul wrote "for a moment" he was thinking aion "can be an 'age' of a 'finite period.'" Or did he know that αἰώνιος is synonymous with ἀΐ́διος as he used it in Rom 1:20? I think the Universalist argument just bit the dust.
Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Personally.......I never gave it any serious thought to begin with.

There are more false and unbiblical teachings in the world today than anyone can comprehend.
Universalism is one of those teachings. It says and so do our friends here on this particular thread,
that all people will eventually be saved through the atonement of Christ. It says that all mankind, regardless of their seriousness of their sin or their rejection of Christ will be in heaven.

Those that believe this will argue with out end the meaning of a "comma or a single word" if they think it promotes their cause but will ignore or rationalize away the actual words of "FOREVER, FIRE, TORMENTS".

The real danger in this false teaching is that it tends to do away with accountability. It also removes the fear of judgment and it does not ask for any repentance at all. What that means is that the person who accepts this teaching can do anything he wants to do because in the end, ALL will be saved.

I am not saying that the Universalist believer will go out sin all that he wants to do, however it does in fact open the door for those who are confused and unscrupulous to do exactly what they want to do without any fear of having to be judged for those actions.

Eternity is a really long time and hell is a really hot and terrible place to be in forever and forever and forever..................... and I for one would never place a bet on the teaching of Universalism!

Now, there is another side to this story. The Devil has one goal in mind and only one. He wants to take as many to hell with him as he can and the best tool he has is religion and particularly false teaching.

It maybe that Universalism is going to be one of those tools Satan uses in the last days as it weakens
the need to trust in Christ Jesus and ONLY Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 4:1........
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons."

2 Thessalonians 2:11..........
"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie".

Those who are believers in Universalism will always say that they do not deny the Trinity or the Godhood of the Lord Jesus Christ but in their theology, it just does not matter what they say they believe.

You see, they believe that in the end, in the after life, all people will come to an actual knowledge of God, repent and be saved. So, even if they are wrong now they will be right in the end.
In their mind, it is....."How can we loose"?

But what is it that Satan has always said......
"don't worry about getting saved today, you can do it tomarrow".
 
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Major1

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"Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture"

If "eternal torture" means burning in hell for ever and ever ... not so.

Couple of reasons:

God says the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. 2nd Rerserrection -

God promises eternal immortality to the saved. If it is believed "eternal torture" then these folks (the wicked lost) would have immortality as well ... not a very enjoyable, but immortality just the same.

No disrespect to you my brother but,
Is that actually Biblically true or is it what YOU want to believe.

2nd Thess. 1:8-9 says.........
“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

Actually you are correct. The saved people will live ETERNALLY in the presence of God in heaven according to the Scriptures.

Then according to those same Scriptures, the wicked lost people will also live ETERNALLY in the presence of Satan in the lake of fire.
 
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eleos1954

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It is amazing to me, the more I study God's word seeing that for every teaching in the Bible Satan has a lie. Satan has and is always trying to make God out to be a liar. From the Fall of 1/3 of the angels and Lucifer himself from heaven to the fall of mankind on earth .... with his lies continuing here on earth are the direct result of lies about God being promoted by Lucifer/Satan. Lucifer/Satan ... the father of lies.

"don't worry about getting saved today, you can do it tomorrow".

Today is the day of salvation. Right now.

God Bless
 
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Der Alte

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Twelve points opposing the opinion that AION is not used of finite time in the Scriptures. The same 12 points showing that even the phrase "into the ages of the ages" is used of finite time in the Bible:...
My list of eight just grew to 21, about 10 minutes ago, and my most recent addition is irrefutable.
Twenty one verses which define/describe αἰώνιος and αἰώνιος: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26. In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described as in the following verses.

[1] 1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” “aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[3]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than th earthly house. Ythuse the aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[4]Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever.[αἰών/aion] hath an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever, .[αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aion” is paired with “incorruptible.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
[6]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.[aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality”. If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[7]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap life aionios, i.e. not “corruption.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting.”
[8]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “death” If “aionios” is only a finite period, it is not opposite of “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[9]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with not “snatch them out of my hand” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s)” that is not the opposite of “not ‘snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[10]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus by definition “aionios” here means “eternal.”
[12]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
[13]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal.
[14]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[15]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
[16]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
[17]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
[18]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.”
[19]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios” by definition here means ‘eternal.”
[20]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul uses “aidios” to refer to the Godhead. “Aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending. In Rom 16:26 Paul uses “aionios” to refer to God therefore Paul considers the two words to be synonymous.
=======

• A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)

Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.
 
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eleos1954

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No disrespect to you my brother but,
Is that actually Biblically true or is it what YOU want to believe.

2nd Thess. 1:8-9 says.........
“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

Actually you are correct. The saved people will live ETERNALLY in the presence of God in heaven according to the Scriptures.

Then according to those same Scriptures, the wicked lost people will also live ETERNALLY in the presence of Satan in the lake of fire.

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

Punished - not continual punishing
Everlasting destruction - not torture - will be totally destroyed, totally consumed by the fire and will be no more. The 2nd death

Romans 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Psalm 37:20

20But the wicked will perish;
the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures;
they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Revelation 20:14

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.

The loving God I know, would not and will not torture for eternity, even Satan himself will be totally consumed along with the earth and will be no more.
Agree to disagree .... guess we'll find out when it happens. :amen:
No disrespect to you my brother but,
Is that actually Biblically true or is it what YOU want to believe.

2nd Thess. 1:8-9 says.........
“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

Actually you are correct. The saved people will live ETERNALLY in the presence of God in heaven according to the Scriptures.

Then according to those same Scriptures, the wicked lost people will also live ETERNALLY in the presence of Satan in the lake of fire.
 
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Major1

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"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

Punished - not continual punishing
Everlasting destruction - not torture - will be totally destroyed, totally consumed by the fire and will be no more. The 2nd death

Romans 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Psalm 37:20

20But the wicked will perish;
the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures;
they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Revelation 20:14

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.

The loving God I know, would not and will not torture for eternity, even Satan himself will be totally consumed along with the earth and will be no more.
Agree to disagree .... guess we'll find out when it happens. :amen:

Yes, we are in disagreement.
Yes, the God you are referring to is not found in the Bible.

Honestly, you are making clear, simple words mean what YOU want them to mean instead of accepting them as they are written in the Word of God.

For the God you are talking about to exist, more Scriptures in the Bible will have to be removed than there is room to list here. If you are comfortable with that, then may the Lord bless you my friend.

Luke 16:23-24........
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Revelation 20:10....
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Rev. 21:8.....
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Matt. 25:46.........
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

2 Thess. 1:9............
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might ".


2 Peter 2:4 ..................
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment".

Rev. 14:11.................
" And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”




 
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Major1

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It is amazing to me, the more I study God's word seeing that for every teaching in the Bible Satan has a lie. Satan has and is always trying to make God out to be a liar. From the Fall of 1/3 of the angels and Lucifer himself from heaven to the fall of mankind on earth .... with his lies continuing here on earth are the direct result of lies about God being promoted by Lucifer/Satan. Lucifer/Satan ... the father of lies.

"don't worry about getting saved today, you can do it tomorrow".

Today is the day of salvation. Right now.

God Bless

I agree completely!

IMO, Satan wants you to be saved. He wants all men to be saved..............he just wants you to do it tomarrow!
 
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razzelflabben

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I agree completely!

IMO, Satan wants you to be saved. He wants all men to be saved..............he just wants you to do it tomarrow!
well that idea certainly isn't biblical....ah well, I guess the bible doesn't have to inform our opinions, right? As long as we can manipulate it into what we want then dismiss anyone who presents scripture to the contrary? (Passages about Satan and his plan for mankind What Does the Bible Say About Satan?) notice the first one says he wants to devour mankind not persuade him to wait till tomorrow to come to the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
 
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eleos1954

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"No disrespect to you my brother but,
"Is that actually Biblically true or is it what YOU want to believe."


Actually I am your sister. No disrespect to you either.

I ask you the same question

"Is that actually Biblically true or is it what YOU want to believe."

Eternal life in hell being tortured, eternal life in heaven. 2nd death? Mortality verses immortality? Being eternally immortal in hell as well as eternally immortal in heaven?

The wages of sin is death (eternal death) not burning forever and ever. Totally consumed by fire ... ashes under His feet .... smoke of His torment....
Yes, Biblically true.

Agree to disagree.

God Bless
 
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Major1

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"No disrespect to you my brother but,
"Is that actually Biblically true or is it what YOU want to believe."


Actually I am your sister. No disrespect to you either.

I ask you the same question

"Is that actually Biblically true or is it what YOU want to believe."

Eternal life in hell being tortured, eternal life in heaven. 2nd death? Mortality verses immortality? Being eternally immortal in hell as well as eternally immortal in heaven?

The wages of sin is death (eternal death) not burning forever and ever. Totally consumed by fire ... ashes under His feet .... smoke of His torment....
Yes, Biblically true.

Agree to disagree.

God Bless
It seems to me that you said................"Yes, Biblically true".

Agreed. May the Lord bless you.
 
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eleos1954

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It seems to me that you said................"Yes, Biblically true".

Agreed. May the Lord bless you.

Clarification: Believing NOT burning in hell forever and ever being Yes, Biblically true.

May the Lord Bless you as well.
 
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ClementofA

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While the Greek words αἰών and αἰώνιος sometimes refers to something that is not eternal, in nineteen verses in the NT it is literally defined or described as eternal.

Your theory that aion & aionios are always defined as 'eternal' everywhere in the Scriptures and never defined as finite duration does not have the support of a single lexicon, Church Father, commentator or dictionary. You've been unable to give one source in the past 2000 years that agrees with your definition.


This never occurs when αἰώνιος and αἰώνιος refer to something which is eternal.

This appears to contradict what you said above. And why repeat the word αἰώνιος twice?


Nineteen verses which define/describe αἰών and αἰώνιος: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24,

[1] 1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” “aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Young's Literal Translation
and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Tim.1:17)

The information that God is "King of the ages" is different info (not redundant info) from God being "immortal" & "invisible" & the "only wise God".

Nothing in this verse says "the ages" referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase "to the ages of the ages" means endless. If you are doing something up "to" a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.

Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11;Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.

1."God exists today"
2. Today "is finite"
3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
4. God is also immortal.
5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
6. Both are true at the same time.

Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].

Thus your argument is refuted.


[2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below.


Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

Thesaurus results for MOMENT
Gegenteil-von.com
104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3
http://en.konjugator.com/aeon/

Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/vocabulary-lesson-opposites2.php



[3]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aionios” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”


First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.


[4]Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever.[αἰών/aion] hath an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time.
Thus “aion” means “eternal.”


Hebrews 7:24 Interlinear: and he, because of his remaining -- to the age, hath the priesthood not transient,

"hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version." Hebrews 7:24 Commentaries: but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

"This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent @ Hebrews 7:24 Commentaries: but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration. After God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).



[5]1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever, .[αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “incorruptible.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”


"The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

1 Peter 1:23 Commentaries: for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:

http://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-23.htm

and also this:

Greek-English Interlinear:
Index of /interlinear/1_peter


[6]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.[aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is in apposition with “immortality”. If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”


Actually God can be (and is) both immortal & existing "for a finite period at the same time". For God lives both "today" and is "immortal". Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely "today". Additionally, God is "immortal". So when the finite time period "today" ends, He does not end, but lives on.

That God will be living "today" and also at the same time be "immortal" are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing.

Likewise the fact God is both aionian (eonian) & immortal in 1 Tim.6:16 do not require they be redundant or that eonian mean eternal or endless time.

Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)
Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)
Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)
but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

Similarly if the eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26).

Young's Literal Translation (1 Tim.6:16)
who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.
Concordant Literal Translation
Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!
Rotherham's Emphasized Version
Who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable,—Whom no man hath seen—nor can see: unto whom, be honour and might age-abiding. Amen.
Emphatic Diaglott NT
the only one having deathlessness, light dwelling in inaccessible, whom saw no one of men, nor to see is able; to whom honor and might age-lasting; so be it.
Emphatic Diaglott (margin)
...to whom be Honor and Might aionian. Amen

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/AKR1767.0001.001/686?rgn=main;view=image
http://studybible.info/CLV/1 Timothy 6
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti6.pdf

Regarding Greek scholar Deissman:

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html

The Greek text is on p.275ff. The English translation follows.

"I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

"The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf



[7]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap life aionios, i.e. not “corruption.” Thus “aionios” means
“eternal/everlasting.”

The "corruption" is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the life or eonian or life eonian must be endless.

Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g. the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). And Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by "olam and beyond", thereby making olam life in this context finite.



[8]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “death” If “aionios” is only a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “death.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[9]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are contrasted with not “snatch them out of my hand” In a finite period they could be snatched out, “Aionios” means “eternal.”
[10]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).
In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV)
and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).


[11]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you
and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”


Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a "little while". See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & "moment".


[12]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can
seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

Those who "in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality" will be given "aionios life". Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life.

Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).


[13]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” means eternal.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-33.htm
http://studybible.info/ACVI/Luke
http://studybible.info/IGNT/Luke

Darby Bible Translation
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

This is what it actually literally says:

Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."

Here is the full verse with context:

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25). So His reign "for the eons" over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase "for the eons" in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation "forever" is wrong, misleading & deceptive.



[14]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” means
“forever and forever.”


If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


[15]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” means eternal.
[16]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” means eternal.
[17]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” means eternal.

And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

This may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish "for the eon". In the millennium:

Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn't say they perish "without end" or "endlessly". They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).


[18]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period” it means “eternal.”

For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

Believers have life eonian, as long as they don't lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.


[19]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is.

Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23) to those who believe. Eventually all will receive life (verses 18-19 of the same chapter).



= = = = =
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.
III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular. Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων
John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη
among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου
Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων
the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49
=======
• A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly
unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20,
exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.

None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying
expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

https://books.google.ca/books?id=oD... everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://tentmaker.org/blog1/universalism/

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/


"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"
 
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Der Alte

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Your theory that aion & aionios are always defined as 'eternal' everywhere in the Scriptures and never defined as finite duration does not have the support of a single lexicon, Church Father, commentator or dictionary. You've been unable to give one source in the past 2000 years that agrees with your definition.
This appears to contradict what you said above. And why repeat the word αἰώνιος twice?
Typo which has now been corrected it now reads αἰών and αἰώνιος. Please show me any verse where aion/aionios is defined/described as less than eternal.eternity as I have done with scripture. The words are used to refer to something less than eternal/eternity but never defined with other adjectives or nouns as anything but "eternal"/"eternity."
.....And your argument is a logical fallacy, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. For hundreds of years Bible opponents argued that the Hittites never existed, so the Bible is false, that is until archaeological evidence was found in the early 20th century.

The information that God is "King of the ages" is different info (not redundant info) from God being "immortal" & "invisible" & the "only wise God".
Making an argument does not mean you are correct. This is just “I’m right and you’re wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!”
Nothing in this verse says "the ages" referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase "to the ages of the ages" means endless. If you are doing something up "to" a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.
More of same “I’m right and you’re wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!”
Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11;Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.
1."God exists today"
2. Today "is finite"
3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
4. God is also immortal.
5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
6. Both are true at the same time
.
Your argument is invalid. The quoted scripture does not say “God exists during a finite period” If you change the actual words willy-nilly you can make it say almost anything. The verse says “εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionon, The word εις/eis means “unto” not “during.”
Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].
Thus your argument is refuted
.
Nothing is refuted. More “I’m right and you’re wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!” God is immortal not limited to an age or ages. None of the verses say that God exists "during" an age(s). The verses all read "unto the aion of aions." If God only exists unto a finite period then He cannot be immortal.
Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":
If you wish to refute my argument do so from the Greek not the English translation.
First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.
Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal
.
Twisting scripture, 2 Cor 5:1 does not say “heavens,” plural, it says “in heaven” singular. In Uni land does the abode of God pass away? So your argument is Paul was talking nonsense in 2 Cor 5:1. There is no difference, both houses are destroyed just at different times? This argument ignores the previous verse where Paul contrasts αἰώνιος with “temporary.” Are you arguing that αἰώνιος in 2 Cor 5:1 means something different than it does in 2 Cor 4:18?
"hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version."
No thank you.
NIV Heb 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
NET Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently since he lives forever.[Sr, editor Dr Daniel Wallace who has taught graduate level Greek for 30+ years]
Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:
Repeating “I’m right and you’re wrong, Am too! Nuh huh! Over and over does not make it so.
If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.
Similarly if the eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26)
.
None of this repetitious argumentation addresses or disproves that Paul used “aidios” and “aionios” interchangeably in Rom 1:20 and Rom 16:26.
Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul uses “aidios” to refer to the Godhead. “Aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending. In Rom 16:26 Paul uses “aionios” to refer to God therefore Paul considers the two words to be synonymous.
....."Aion and aionios are defined in scripture as eternal, etc. Both words are used to refer to something which is not eternal etc, but are never defined as such. How do we explain the use of aion/aionios to refer to something not eternal etc? Figurative or hyperbolically as the word "world " is used to refer to only a part of the world. The faith of the Roman Christians was not literally reported over the entire earth. The entire earth was not literally under the control of the evil one. The devil or satan did not literally lead the entire earth astray.

Romans1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
 
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ClementofA

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Typo which has now been corrected it now reads αἰών and αἰώνιος. Please show me any verse where aion/aionios is defined/described as less than eternal.eternity as I have done with scripture.

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)

I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old[owlam-im], the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
 
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I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old[owlam-im], the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Relevance? I have been discussing the Greek words "aion" and "aionios" in the NT not Hebrew words in the OT.
 
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