proving evolution as just a "theory"

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rjs330

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And yet when trying to get creationists to provide a proper model on which to work from the original "created kinds", it's like pulling teeth and they ultimately come up empty. Every. Single. Time.

Then you haven't been reading all my posts because I gave it.

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. - Genesis 1:20-25 Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1:20-25 - King James Version

God said, “Let the waters swarm with living things, and let birds fly above the earth up in the dome of the sky.”God created the great sea animals and all the tiny living things that swarm in the waters, each according to its kind, and all the winged birds, each according to its kind. God saw how good it was.Then God blessed them: “Be fertile and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let the birds multiply on the earth.”There was evening and there was morning: the fifth day.God said, “Let the earth produce every kind of living thing: livestock, crawling things, and wildlife.” And that’s what happened.God made every kind of wildlife, every kind of livestock, and every kind of creature that crawls on the ground. God saw how good it was. - Genesis 1:20-25 Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1:20-25 - Common English Bible

I don't understand what you need to know. Do you need a specific fish? Do you need a specific bird? What do you need that is not covered in those words?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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That might be an interesting challenge if you could frame it intelligibly. What do you mean by "group?" The same thing as you meant by "order" when you were using it incoprrectly? Or "completely different?" Or are you just being intentionally vague as a rhetorical device?
I think you understand what he means just fine. But being as you understand it would be a challenge, you simply then profess to suddenly not understand any longer....
 
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Speedwell

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I think you understand what he means just fine. But being as you understand it would be a challenge, you simply then profess to suddenly not understand any longer....
No, I don't understand. He is proposing some kind of barrier to evolution and is challenging us to produce evidence of evolution crossing it, but he is extemely vague about where that barrier is supposed to be.
 
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rjs330

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But there is no biblical evidence that "kinds" were meant to describe a divine immutable taxonomy.
Once again you use man made definitions. There IS biblical evidence that kinds are meant to describe a myriad of creatures created at the same time and they are all different from each other. Fish and birds were created distinctly different from each other and were created at the same time. Sea creatures were all created at the same time and were different from each other. Taxonomy is a man made definition to try and categorize creatures on this planet. But it does not mean we are correct in our decisions. In fact we are not because the Bible does indicate how things came into being and how long it took and what kinds if things came into being and when.
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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So in other words you have no evidence. I understand...

That is exactly it. Science has presented you with endless proof. some of it even finds its way into these threads. So what would be the purpose of anyone repeating what you have rejected time and again.
If you want to learn about Evolution, sign up to a university course on the subject, and gain a little knowledge. If you then still don't understand or believe what you have learnt, you would at least be in a better position to argue your case.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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uh, huh, and flowering plants ran faster than reptiles? Why are no flowering plants and pollen at the bottom?

And how can the flood explain buried sand dunes in the mix?

And how can the flood explain volcanic rock flows in the mix?
Well if I ignored that pollen floated....

Well if I ignored that the fountains of the deep erupted....

Well if I ignored that mountains fell and valleys rose......

If I ignored the water receding was more violent than the flood itself..... psalms 104:7

If I ignored mountains sank and valleys rose.... psalms 104:8

I’d have those same questions.....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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That is exactly it. Science has presented you with endless proof. some of it even finds its way into these threads. So what would be the purpose of anyone repeating what you have rejected time and again.
If you want to learn about Evolution, sign up to a university course on the subject, and gain a little knowledge. If you then still don't understand or believe what you have learnt, you would at least be in a better position to argue your case.
What proof? That every fossil found always remains the same? That not a single common ancestor can be found for any evolutionary split on any tree?

Just what proof are you referring to? I see lots of claims of proof, but not a single solitary fact to back it up.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Jesus as a man did not exist until then. But he existed before becoming a man and he was intimately involved in creation.
Amen. He was the only thing directly created by God, His only begotten, who then created all other things by the Power of God.
 
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Speedwell

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Jesus as a man did not exist until then. But he existed before becoming a man and he was intimately involved in creation.
OK. It's just that the way I was taught "Jesus" is the name of of the incarnate Word, not appropriately used for the second person of the Trinity as such.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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No, I don't understand. He is proposing some kind of barrier to evolution and is challenging us to produce evidence of evolution crossing it, but he is extemely vague about where that barrier is supposed to be.

Then show us a single common ancestor for any split where this barrier occurred on any single evolutionary tree. I mean surely you have some remains of some common ancestor that split to become two different paths of evolution?

Or is this where we are to take the claims of evolution on faith?
 
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rjs330

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Does it? I thought it said

"Let the land bought forth the creatures according to their kinds"

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."

That doesn't sound like it rules out evolution, where we would expect to see an offspring to be of the same "kind" as it's parent. I suppose it's vague enough to mean what you like though. Does it specify somewhere that they were separately created?

Let's take a closer look.
God said, “Let the waters swarm with living things, and let birds fly above the earth up in the dome of the sky.”God created the great sea animals and all the tiny living things that swarm in the waters, each according to its kind, and all the winged birds, each according to its kind. God saw how good it was.Then God blessed them: “Be fertile and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let the birds multiply on the earth.”There was evening and there was morning: the fifth day.God said, “Let the earth produce every kind of living thing: livestock, crawling things, and wildlife.” And that’s what happened.God made every kind of wildlife, every kind of livestock, and every kind of creature that crawls on the ground. God saw how good it was. - Genesis 1:20-25 Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1:20-25 - Common English Bible

So we see that God created the sea creatures. Let the water swarm talks about lots of creatures. He created large ones and small ones each according to it's kind. He didn't start with one thing. Nothing evolved into something else from one ancestor. All large and small were created at the same time. The other thing here is that birds were all created at the same time. Birds is plural not singular. They according to their kind indicates a plurality if creatures all created at the same time and were of differing kinds. Birds were created at the same time as the sea creatures. Which fly's in the face (oun intended) of evolution. So yes the Bible does rule out evolution from a common ancestor.
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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What proof? That every fossil found always remains the same? That not a single common ancestor can be found for any evolutionary split on any tree?

Just what proof are you referring to? I see lots of claims of proof, but not a single solitary fact to back it up.

I do not propose to check up.. but how many time have you repeated those claims in this thread?

If you really wanted answers you would make the effort to learn some relevant science.
up to now you are just repeating the dumb questions to be found on any creationist site, that have been both answered and explored numerous times here and elsewhere.
 
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BradB

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uh, huh, and flowering plants ran faster than reptiles? Why are no flowering plants and pollen at the bottom?

And how can the flood explain buried sand dunes in the mix?

And how can the flood explain volcanic rock flows in the mix?

Why are there no coconut trees in the forests of the Colorado mountains or for that matter the foothills of Missouri? Just looking at todays biology we find that across areas such as the Sierra Nevada of California, or the South Rim of the Grand Canyon down to the Colorado River, there are distinct plant and animal communities in different life or ecology zones that are characteristic of those climates. If there were a flood today that wiped out all life some future skeptic might wonder why no lions were found as high as bears in the strata if they lived at the same time. As for the dunes of sand dunes and volcanic rock flows... did you read the account of the flood in the Bible? It wasn't just some rain and rising water. It said the "fountains" of the deep burst forth as well as the "windows" of heaven. So the Bible explicitly mentions some sort of catastrophic volcanic activity that released soil on a continental scale.
 
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rjs330

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That might be an interesting challenge if you could frame it intelligibly. What do you mean by "group?" The same thing as you meant by "order" when you were using it incoprrectly? Or "completely different?" Or are you just being intentionally vague as a rhetorical device?

I understand that man made definitions to describe stuff. I generally mean order when I talk about groups etc. Such as the order lizards or birds etc. A large group of creatures that have the same traits. It's really not that difficult. It is when you start arguing minutia. Let's stay within the broad thoughts of orders referring to the larger group. Such as lizards. God made all kinds of lizards. Those lizards may have done some evolving such as a digestive system or coloring or even types of skin but they remain lizards.
 
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pitabread

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So you don't have any evidence of a common ancestor. I didn't think so.

Your hypothesis idea is just not really testable. The hypothesis is always based upon a false premise and subject to false interpretation. It's all over the place in evolutionary theory.

Show me one test please, just one that shows a group can evolve into a separate group.

You completely ignore that there is nothing. There are no fossils that show a group evolving into another group. You ignore that you have no evidence of a group evolving into another group. You always start with a false hypothesis without evidence that your hypothesis is actually true to begin with. Because you have no evidence of any if it actually occurring. And you can't make it occur or observe it occurring.

You're still doing it. Just in this reply, you've already invoked hand-waving dismissals of anything you might potentially be given. That coupled with a clear conceptual gap in understanding of the ToE (common among creationists) allows you to remain in a perfect state of perpetual denialism.

It's quite amazing.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I do not propose to check up.. but how many time have you repeated those claims in this thread?

If you really wanted answers you would make the effort to learn some relevant science.
up to now you are just repeating the dumb questions to be found on any creationist site, that have been both answered and explored numerous times here and elsewhere.
And yet no one can refute those claims. Your inability to provide evidence against them simply confirms them.

Had you real evidence you would present it now. In all other threads they too remain unanswered and unchallenged. And in all other threads all claims by evolutionists have been refuted by direct observational data, the data you are unable to refute.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You're still doing it. Just in this reply, you've already invoked hand-waving dismissals of anything you might potentially be given. That coupled with a clear conceptual gap in understanding of the ToE (common among creationists) allows you to remain in a perfect state of perpetual denialism.

It's quite amazing.
Why not, you all offer only hand waving dismissal in return.

Coupled with claims of not understanding without being able to show this lack of understanding and how it applies. As if only you can understand the theory.

Ahh, that’s only valid for those who believe as you do, right?

I understand it just fine. As I understand the Husky or Mastiff do not evolve into the Chinook, and yet variation occurred regardless of your claims of mutation and millions of years...
 
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pitabread

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Then you haven't been reading all my posts because I gave it.

Quoting scripture is not the same thing as providing a biologically viable and testable quantification and/or qualification of "kinds" that we can apply to modern organisms.

I don't understand what you need to know. Do you need a specific fish? Do you need a specific bird? What do you need that is not covered in those words?

You need to provide a specific biological definition that can be applied to any group of two or more species to explicitly determine whether or not they are the same "kind". Furthermore, as creationists often assert that there is some sort of biological barrier preventing evolutionary change beyond a certain threshold, you would also need to provide a biological definition of that barrier and ideally provide conditions under which its viability could be scientifically tested.

If the best you have to offer is scripture quotes, then you don't have anything scientifically useful.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Quoting scripture is not the same thing as providing a biologically viable and testable quantification and/or qualification of "kinds" that we can apply to modern biological species.
So what viable and testable quantification would you like? Mating and producing fertile offspring? Or perhaps you prefer shared ecological niches today? But maybe tomorrow you might prefer anotomical similarities. And maybe the day after we will use geographical local instead..... need I say more?

You need to provide a specific biological definition that can be applied to any group of two or more species to explicitly determine whether or not they are the same "kind". Furthermore, as creationists often assert that there is some sort of biological barrier preventing evolutionary change beyond a certain threshold, you would also need to provide a biological definition of that barrier and ideally provide conditions under which its viability could be scientifically tested.

If the best you have to offer is scripture quotes, then you don't have anything scientifically useful.
And yet you can’t provide the very same thing you demand when it comes to species....

As a matter of fact evolutionists tend to ignore mating right in front of their eyes when it comes to Darwin’s Finches.

So which precise claim of species would you like to use today so we can test if they are really the same Kind, I mean species?

You all keep ignoring the most comprehensive and longest lasting experiment to date to test evolution. Dogs, because it falsifies your theory.
 
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