Why I dislike Calvinism

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
This is so true. I'm neither and almost every Calvinist has called me an Arminian.

Thanks for restating this. Maybe if they read it more than once it'll stick. The 'Arminian' is not the 'other' bucket for everyone not a Calvinist.

You're welcome.

[Staff edit].

DeaconDean · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Couldn’t have been anything about the lives they lived and their relationship to God, huh?

Scripture said this was in place before either was even born, before either had done good or bad. God loved one and hated the other. (Rom. 9:11)

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Nov 22, 2017

Doug Melven said:
I am curious why you keep bringing up Acts 2:23?

The same Greek word is used there and in 1 Pet. 1:2.

That's why.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Nov 22, 2017

Doug Melven said:
But, this is clearly not the same as predetermining who gets elected to salvation.
God doesn't choose some to go to hell. That would be against His will.
He said He wants all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The LORD .... is not willing that any should perish.

And yet they do.

And again, God does not "predetermine" who gets elect to salvation. And even if He did, what's that to you? As Sovereign Lord over everything, is it not His right?

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?" -Rom. 9:21 (KJV)

And here's something you haven't even considered.

You absolutely cannot have "election" without "reprobation".

This bears out in Jacob and Esau.

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

" -Rom. 9:11 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Nov 22, 2017

Doug Melven said:
God knows in advance who will reject Him.

In my opinion I just think Calvinists don't think God was able to figure out who could be saved, how one person getting saved would influence others and that would influence others and so on.
To many permutations. So God had to take a hand in determining who gets saved.
I just think God is wise enough to figure all this out.

And there is you whole argument in a nutshell.

The person who rejects God is not elected for that very reason.

On the other hand, God knows "in advance" that John X, will accept and believe, therefore he is elected.

God shows respect for one person because He knows "in advance" what he will do, and likewise God has no respect for the other because He knows "in advance" he will reject.

Your God is a respecter of persons.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Nov 22, 2017

Doug Melven said:
God knows in advance who will reject Him.

This quote proves what I said earlier, you cannot have "election" without "reprobation".

You just quoted James Arminius!

"IV. To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere."

Source

Which makes God a respecter of persons.

God, using His divine "foreknowledge": " individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere,".

Likewise: "knew those who would not believe and persevere."

Whether you like it or not, mans salvation, or damnation is based upon what he will or will not do, as seen in the eyes of God's "foreknowledge".

God has respect or one, while no respect for the other.

Sorry

God Bless

Till all are one.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2017

DeaconDean said:
And yet they do.

And again, God does not "predetermine" who gets elect to salvation.

What hasn't been shown from Scripture is that election is to salvation. So why believe what isn't found in Scripture?

Election is to service, not salvation.

Mountainmanbob · Nov 22, 2017

God sovereignly elected His people because He is rich in mercy and chose to display it for His glory

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Mountainmanbob said:
God sovereignly elected His people because He is rich in mercy and chose to display it for His glory

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Non Calvinists know God is rich in mercy.

So what is the proof here?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2017

Mountainmanbob said:
God sovereignly elected His people because He is rich in mercy and chose to display it for His glory

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Please review the OP of another thread here: The purpose of Election

It is a myth that election is about being chosen for salvation. The purpose of election is being chosen for service.

Mountainmanbob · Nov 22, 2017

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16 - So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 - For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. (Read More...)

Romans 10:5-13 - For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (Read More...)

Romans 9:13-14 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Read More...)

Romans 10:17 - So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Read More...)

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)

Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ezekiel 18:20-21 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Read More...)

Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Doug Melven · Nov 22, 2017

DeaconDean said:
he person who rejects God is not elected for that very reason.

On the other hand, God knows "in advance" that John X, will accept and believe, therefore he is elected.

God shows respect for one person because He knows "in advance" what he will do, and likewise God has no respect for the other because He knows "in advance" he will reject.

Finally, the truth. This is what I have been saying all along.

DeaconDean said:
"IV. To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere."

Source

Which makes God a respecter of persons.

How does that make Him a respecter of persons.

Something that has not even been considered as far as I can see.
Why did God give the law. It was to show man his sinful state.
Without the law people would not have known that they sinned against a Holy God.
But in Calvinism there is no no need for the law. No need for a person to know that if he continues on his path he is going to die.
God is going to save him regardless or let him go to hell.
And why did God tell us to preach the Gospel. If God is going to do what He is going to do.
With Calvinism the law and preaching the gospel are pointless.

Whether or not Arminius believes as I do or not makes no difference to me.
I don't even know the rest of what he believes and don't really care to.
I believe what I believe because God has revealed it to me.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Mountainmanbob said:
John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16 - So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 - For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. (Read More...)

Romans 10:5-13 - For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (Read More...)

Romans 9:13-14 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Read More...)

Romans 10:17 - So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Read More...)

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)

Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ezekiel 18:20-21 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Read More...)

Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

You have a lot of different topics referrenced in all these verses. Why not take one concept and we can diuscuss it.

Doug Melven · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
You have a lot of different topics referrenced in all these verses. Why not take one concept and we can diuscuss it.

Good idea, let's do that.

Mountainmanbob said:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Titus 2:11 The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. So He extended salvation to everybody.

Mountainmanbob said:
Romans 9:16 - So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens. This whole passage is talking about Israel as a nation and how He chose them.

Mountainmanbob said:
Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

And it is clearly according to His will. He knows who will accept or reject and made plans accordingly.

Mountainmanbob said:
Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This foreknow is the Greek word proginosko G4267 to know beforehand, to foresee

Mountainmanbob said:
Deuteronomy 30:11-20 - For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. (Read More...)

These verse clearly show man has a freewill to choose life or death, good or evil, so He says to choose life.
Are you sure about Calvinism?

Mountainmanbob said:
Romans 10:5-13 - For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (Read More...)

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Are you sure about Calvinism?

Mountainmanbob said:
Romans 9:13-14 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Read More...)

See Malachi 1:2-4 It is talking about Jacob being the nation of Israel and Esau being the nation of Edom, not individuals.

Mountainmanbob said:
Romans 10:17 - So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So people hear the Word of God, then they get faith.
Are you sure about Calvinism?

Mountainmanbob said:
Romans 8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Read More...)

You quoted this twice, just adding verse 30, it was based on foreknowledge in 29, it still is.

Mountainmanbob said:
Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The children that He already foreknew would be blessed and would be holy an
d without blame.

Mountainmanbob said:
Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God has a plan that cannot be stopped. He planned for Jesus to die a brutal death, to be buried in a rich mans tomb and He would rise again, and He is coming back soon.

Mountainmanbob said:
John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Are you sure about Calvinism?

Mountainmanbob said:
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)

When we hear the Word and accept it, He gives us faith.

Mountainmanbob said:
Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So we have a choice whether to be converted or not?

Mountainmanbob said:
Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

If Pharoah had done as Moses had asked to let the people go, I believe God would have gotten great glory. This man who was steeped in his own false gods, if he would have set them aside and done what was right, all these false gods would have been dethroned by Pharoah. But He didn't do what was right, God had to show everybody the worthlessness of these false Gods, and God got glory. God was going to get glory either way. So yes God raised him up so He could get glory.

Mountainmanbob · Nov 22, 2017

DeaconDean said:
Scripture said this was in place before either was even born, before either had done good or bad. God loved one and hated the other. (Rom. 9:11)

God Bless

Till all are one.

That upholds in a strong way the calvinist view point.
M-Bob

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2017

Mountainmanbob said:
John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What happened to the very next verse, which explains v.44??

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

You see, everyone will be taught by God. But only those who listened and learned will come to Jesus. A positive response from the teaching. But there are also negative responses to teaching. Just observe any classroom. Not everyone under teaching learns. Many do not because they paid no attention. Speaking of which, learn from these verses:

2 Chron 33:10 - The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention.
Neh 9:30 - For many years you were patient with them. By your Spirit you warned them through your prophets. Yet they paid no attention, so you gave them into the hands of the neighboring peoples.
Isa 42:20 - You have seen many things, but you pay no attention; your ears are open, but you do not listen.”

So, you see, people just aren't paying attention to the Lord. Mankind has free will.

Romans 9:16 - So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Let's consider the very next verse, which is in the context of the purpose of election (v.11):
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Sounds like service to me here.

Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

How about the previous verse:
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

What's the purpose of being chosen in this verse? "to be holy and blameless in His sight". That's what. That is service.

We find the same appeal in 1 Pet 3:11 - you ought to live holy and godly lives, or v.14 - make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with Him.

Or 1 Cor 1:2 - to the church...called to be holy. Or 1 Thess 3:13 - may He strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy. Or 1 Thess 4:7 - For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Nothing here about election, but about predestination. Which is NOT about salvation, but being conformed to the image of His Son. Only believers are predestinated.

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 - For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. (Read More...)

A very clear passage about free will. To choose either death or life. God gives choices.

Romans 10:5-13 - For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (Read More...)

v.9 "IF you confess and believe". A choice. v.13 "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved". No limitations or restrictions on who may call on His name.

Romans 9:13-14 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Read More...)

A direct quote from Mal 1:2,3, written about 400 years after the twins were born. Regarding the nations that came out of the twins.

Romans 10:17 - So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Amen. Nothing about eleciton to salvation.

Romans 8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Read More...)

See comment above.

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

See comment above about this verse.

Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Where is salvation noted as the purpose?

John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Yep. Unlimited atonement. Also note John 3:15,16, Heb 2:9, 2 Cor 5:14,15 and 1 Pet 3:18 - Christ died once for all; the righteous for the unrighteous. Every human being is unrighteous.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)

In v.5 Paul equates "being made alive" with "have been saved". They are synonymnous. Can't have one without the other. And v.8 confirms that faith precedes salvation; ye are saved through faith. If being saved, or being made alive (regeneration) came first, Paul would have said: ye have faith because of your salvation. But he didn't.

Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What does this have to do with election? No one gets into heaven unless they are saved, converted, born again.

Ezekiel 18:20-21 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Read More...)

The context here is about physical death, or capital punishment.

Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

See my previous comment above.

Now, please return the courtesy and address all my points in the OP of the thread "the purpose of election" here: The purpose of Election

Thanks.

Doug Melven · Nov 22, 2017

DeaconDean said: ↑
Scripture said this was in place before either was even born, beforeeither had done good or bad. God loved one and hated the other. (Rom. 9:11)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Mountainmanbob said:
That upholds in a strong way the calvinist view point.
M-Bob

It upholds the Calvinist viewpoint right up till you look at the Scripture in context. It is a quote from Malach1 1
When we look there we see it is talking about 2 nations. Israel and Edom.

Mountainmanbob · Nov 22, 2017

What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism | Desiring God

lismore · Nov 22, 2017

Hidden In Him said:
I do likewise view OSAS as an evil and deceptive doctrine, given the number of souls that may end up in Hell because of it.

Hello Hidden!

In my humble opinion, those who argue against OSAS or 'eternal security' as I prefer to refer to it are making one mistake. They attack the always saved part when they should be bringing up the once saved part.

Judging others is a mistake, but I have met many church members I would not describe as ever having been saved, judgement not required, it's obvious in conversation. As indeed the Lord Jesus mentions in once place saying to some 'I never knew you'.

I believe in eternal security but also believe the greatest need for the gospel is in the church.

God's Blessing to you.

DeaconDean · Nov 22, 2017

Doug Melven said:
Finally, the truth. This is what I have been saying all along.

And there is my proof, my "bone-fide".

It's all about what you will or will not do at some point in time.

God, the respecter of persons.

That's not the God of the scriptures, I can tell you that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Why I dislike Calvinism

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