What about those who haven’t heard?

Emmy

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Dear Mark Corbett. God is Love, and God sees our hearts. The Bible is G0d'S wORD TO US. iN mATTHEW 22: 35-40: jESUS TELLS US: the first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with all thy minds. The second is like it, love thy neighbour as thyself." On these two Commandments, hang all the Law and the Prophets. God wants our love, freely given and from the heart. In Matthew 7:7-10: we are told: Ask and you shall receive. We ask God for Love, then thank God and share all love and joy and compassion with all around us. God sees our love and caring, and God will Bless us greatly. Love is VERY CATCHING, and love will overcome all wrongs and evil. Satan and his followers will run away from all love and compassion. God is Love, and God wants loving men and women. Let us always remember that. GOD IS LOVE, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Jesus will lead us all the way, Jesus IS THE WAY. Why not give it all a try, Mark. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Serving Zion

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Hi Anastasia,

Thank you for this information. My purpose for enquiring of this doctrine is that I do not read the scriptures to say what some versions of The Apostle's Creed say, that He descended into hell (you have said the place of the dead).

As I have shown, there is robust scriptural support for the view that we become spiritually dead through sin and we remain dead until such time as The Word breathes new life into us and we are born again. So it shows that this world is full of those who sleep although they walk (Ephesians 2:3) - they are held captive by their propensity to sin that prevents their receiving of The Word of Life (1 John 1:5-7, John 3:20-21) and it cuts them off from the life that is in Christ (eg: John 15:6, Jeremiah 8:1-3).

I see that all the scriptures you have provided are easily read to support this view, except for 1 Peter 3:19-20. In it, St. Peter is talking about Jesus making proclamation to the spirits that disobeyed in Noah's time. It doesn't immediately fit with the theology I have described seeing it has been presented within the context that you have provided it, because I have not yet provided an explanation of how it can be reconciled with my judgement of righteousness and truth (that Jesus did not descend to Hell/the common grave after death).

I am viewing these spirits as being the same who are described in Jude 1:6, Genesis 6:2 and Luke 4:34.
Sure.
1 Peter 3:19-20
Thus, he also descended* and preached to the spirits in prison, to those who in the past had been disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In this [ark], a few (that is eight souls) were saved through water.
So my question to you that follows is supported by what I have found to be quite a good description on gotquestions.org: Who were the spirits in prison?, that the following quoted part makes a pretty accurate statement:

https://www.gotquestions.org/spirits-in-prison.html said:
While the Bible makes it clear that human beings possess spirits (Hebrews 4:12), the Bible never refers to human beings as simply “spirits.” In contrast, God the Holy Spirit, angels, and demons are never said to possess spirits; they are spirits. So the standard meaning of the word spirits in the phrase spirits in prison argues for the spirits’ being something other than human beings.

The spirits in prison cannot be the holy angels, because they have not sinned and are not imprisoned. And, if the spirits in prison are not the spirits of deceased human beings, that leaves us with one option—the spirits in prison are demons.

My question is, what do you know about the origins of the doctrine that Jesus descended into the place of the dead after His crucifixion and before being raised to glory at God's right hand? Can you name the earliest church founders that expressed this view and perhaps link to or quote their words to that effect?

I am grateful that you can patiently provide this information and not get drawn into an argument over it :) - I recognise that there is no good in trying to force anyone to agree with my views, just, I have learned to be really sceptical of things that are taught. I have had to ask these sorts of questions of the Penalty Substitution Atonement doctrine in the past, as I found that the doctrine originated not with those taught by Jesus Christ Himself, but subsequent theologians - some with no direct contact to the original twelve - and as a result, it did not reflect the authentic knowledge of the original faith. (As a result of that, I have always found that I share your views of atonement when you describe it).
 
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Mark Corbett

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Emmy,

I deeply agree with your comments about God being love and the importance of receiving God's love, loving God in return, and loving our neighbors. I write about God's love often. One of my earliest threads on CF was this one:

Love in Romans

So, this part of what you write resonates with me:

Dear Mark Corbett. God is Love, and God sees our hearts. The Bible is G0d'S wORD TO US. iN mATTHEW 22: 35-40: jESUS TELLS US: the first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with all thy minds. The second is like it, love thy neighbour as thyself." On these two Commandments, hang all the Law and the Prophets.

I also agree with this:
God wants our love, freely given and from the heart.

In fact, I wrote a thread on the importance of love and free will in God's plan.

What is confusing to me is why, after writing a little more about love, you write this:
GOD IS LOVE, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Jesus will lead us all the way, Jesus IS THE WAY. Why not give it all a try, Mark. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Your words imply that I have not tried, or am not trying, the way of Jesus, the way of love.

Now, God knows that I fall short of the example of the love of Christ in a million ways. But falling short while seeking God's grace to grow is not the same as not trying.

I'm wondering why you think I am not already trying to live by God's love?

Is it because you disagree with part of one of my views? In general if someone disagrees with an interpretation of Scripture you hold do you assume they don't love Jesus and others? Or is it something specific about me?

I have no problem with people arguing against my views. This is a discussion forum, I expect that. Because it is a CHRISTIAN discussion forum, I hope such arguments will be carried out with grace and mutual respect. I hope to not have my motives judged when someone interprets the Bible differently from me. In general, I hope people will interact with both Grace and Truth.

To be honest, your final words quoted above feel neither graceful nor loving.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hi Anastasia,

Thank you for this information. My purpose for enquiring of this doctrine is that I do not read the scriptures to say what some versions of The Apostle's Creed say, that He descended into hell (you have said the place of the dead).

As I have shown, there is robust scriptural support for the view that we become spiritually dead through sin and we remain dead until such time as The Word breathes new life into us and we are born again. So it shows that this world is full of those who sleep although they walk (Ephesians 2:3) - they are held captive by their propensity to sin that prevents their receiving of The Word of Life (1 John 1:5-7, John 3:20-21) and it cuts them off from the life that is in Christ (eg: John 15:6, Jeremiah 8:1-3).

I see that all the scriptures you have provided are easily read to support this view, except for 1 Peter 3:19-20. In it, St. Peter is talking about Jesus making proclamation to the spirits that disobeyed in Noah's time. It doesn't immediately fit with the theology I have described seeing it has been presented within the context that you have provided it, because I have not yet provided an explanation of how it can be reconciled with my judgement of righteousness and truth (that Jesus did not descend to Hell/the common grave after death).

I am viewing these spirits as being the same who are described in Jude 1:6, Genesis 6:2 and Luke 4:34.

So my question to you that follows is supported by what I have found to be quite a good description on gotquestions.org: Who were the spirits in prison?, that the following quoted part makes a pretty accurate statement:



My question is, what do you know about the origins of the doctrine that Jesus descended into the place of the dead after His crucifixion and before being raised to glory at God's right hand? Can you name the earliest church founders that expressed this view and perhaps link to or quote their words to that effect?

I am grateful that you can patiently provide this information and not get drawn into an argument over it :) - I recognise that there is no good in trying to force anyone to agree with my views, just, I have learned to be really sceptical of things that are taught. I have had to ask these sorts of questions of the Penalty Substitution Atonement doctrine in the past, as I found that the doctrine originated not with those taught by Jesus Christ Himself, but subsequent theologians - some with no direct contact to the original twelve - and as a result, it did not reflect the authentic knowledge of the original faith. (As a result of that, I have always found that I share your views of atonement when you describe it).

I can aappreciate your point of view. It was the same approach I grew up with, so the way I had to investigate everything myself.

I'm afraid I wouldn't be the best person to give you the earliest information as that would take a very, very broad knowledge of Patristics, which I haven't acquired yet. (And may not live long enough to do, lol, but fortunately I don't have to reinvent the wheel.)

Would you possibly be willing to drop by TAW - The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox - and ask? We have members who may already know the answer or be able to quickly figure it out. I should also say that if you'd care to debate any topic, we have St. Justin Martyr's subforum where that is allowed. Just thought I'd mention that since most congregational subforums don't allow anything other than asking questions.

That would be the easiest way to get your answer, if you don't mind. Meanwhile, I'm going to ask too if there's a more concise topical resource I might be able to get hold of. :) And if you don't want to ask yourself, I will ask for you, or else ask among my priest friends on FB.

(Just as a point of interest, btw, we don't include the Apostles' Creed as a typical part of our own profession. But I am not sure how or if it relates to this particular topic anywhere in the history of the Church.)
 
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Francis Drake

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Knowledge vs humility.

I see many arguments here as to who has the right theological benchmark for those striving for heaven.
ie.
Praying the so called "sinner's prayer".
Knowing the right theology.
Repenting of our sins.
Getting baptised.
Believing the right scriptures.
Joining to the right church.
Obeying the commandments.

I believe that the benchmark for eternal life is simply humility before our creator.

Matt18v1In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?”

2And having summoned a child, He set it in their midst, 3and said, “Truly I say to you, if you are not converted and become as the little children, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heavens. 4Therefore whoever will humble himself as this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens. 5And whoever shall receive one such little child in My name, receives Me.

Jesus clearly says we must become like little children. The church effectively says little children must become like adults before they can understand what Jesus did on the cross.

I knew the Lord as a child, long before anyone taught me about what Jesus did on the cross. I had revelations in my spirit which I much later learned were scripturally correct.

My wife had encounters with Jesus when she was 3 years old. When she was 18, she was given a bible, which she read from cover to cover. She then recognised what the Lord had showed her at the age of three.

I'm sorry if this seems a little long winded, but please plod through to the end.
John1v1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came forth through Him, and without Him not even one thing came forth that has come forth. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
The "Word of God" is not the bible as some seem to think, but God himself.
All things were created by him.
The Word of God is Light and Life, shining in the darkness, and has been doing so from everlasting to everlasting, not just since Jesus came!

6There came a man having been sent from God. His name was John. 7He came as a witness, that he might testify concerning the Light, that all might believe through him. 8He was not the Light, but came that he might witness concerning the Light.
God sent a messenger before him to witness the arrival on earth of the physical version of the Word of God, the Light of the world.

9The true Light who enlightens every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
The world was created by the Word of God, Light of the world. The whole world could always have known him by the Spirit, just as the Patriarchs did, but the majority were hard hearted.
Although he came as a man 2000 years ago, believing in and knowing our creator God has always been necessary for spiritual life ever since Adam, not just since Jesus was born.

11He came to the own, and the own did not receive Him.


12But as many as received Him, He gave to them power to be children of God—to those believing in His name,

"Believing in his name," doesn't just mean believing in the Jesus who came 2000 years ago. It means believing in the character of the one who created us, just like Rahab did, just like Cornelius did long before Peter arrived.
So what's in His name? Strong's online concordance tells us-
Strong's
3686 ónomaname; (figuratively) the manifestation or revelation of someone's character, i.e. as distinguishing them from all others. Thus "praying in the name of Christ" means to pray as directed (authorized) by Him, bringing revelation that flows out of being in His presence. "Praying in Jesus' name" therefore is not a "religious formula" just to end prayers (or get what we want)!

Thus the Patriarchs "believed in his name" whenever they turned to the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel, who of course was the eternal son Jesus before his incarnation.
Enoch walked with God, the same God as Abraham. But note that at the time of Enoch, the same God could not be called the God of Abraham because Abraham had not yet been born!

13who not of blood, nor of will of flesh, nor of will of man, but were born of God.

From Adam onwards, those who believed on the name of their creator God, Light of the World, Rock of Salvation, Yahweh God, were all empowered to be born again of God, which is the message that Jesus told Nicodemus 3 years before the crucifixion, before anyone understood what his death meant.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The Bible teaches that a person is saved when they hear the gospel and respond with repentance and true belief in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:13). It also teaches that belief in Jesus is the only way to salvation (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). Those who have been saved long to see others also saved. This often results in wrestling with a difficult question:

What happens to those who haven’t heard the Good News about Jesus?

Sometimes people try to use this question as a type of rhetorical weapon to demonstrate that Jesus can’t possibly be the only way of salvation. Oprah, echoing the thoughts of many before her, once asked the question in this way, as you can see in this 2 minute video clip (sorry, the picture is somewhat fuzzy, but the sound is clear):


So, what about those who haven’t heard? This is one of those questions which the Bible does not answer in an explicit, direct way. But that doesn’t mean the Bible does not address this question. Let’s consider what may be the most important passage on this issue. I encourage you to slow down and thoughtfully read this, even if you are already familiar with it:

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

It’s as if God says, “You should be worried about those people who haven’t heard. Here’s My solution: YOU go tell them. If you can’t go, then give and pray so that someone else can go.”

Admittedly, that’s not the type of answer people are looking for. But it is the type of answer God gives in His Word, which means it is the best type of answer and the most important type of answer. It’s a practical answer, so let’s stop and think a little about some practical applications of the truth that is declared in the verses above.

Practical Application #1: People Who are Asking about those Who Haven’t Heard are People who Have Heard

If a non-Christian is asking about people who have never heard as an objection to the truth of the Bible (and I’ve heard it asked that way), it may help to gently remind them that they are not in that category. If God makes any special provisions for those who haven’t heard, these provisions would NOT apply to the person who is asking about them, since they obviously have heard the gospel. If they reject the gospel now, the Bible offers NO guarantee that they will have another chance tomorrow (Hebrews 3:15, Proverbs 27:1, Isaiah 55:6). Not only are they not in the category of people who have not had a chance to hear the gospel, most people who are asking about those who haven’t had a chance to hear have never met anyone in this category. Very likely all their friends, family members, coworkers, and neighbors have had and do have many chances to hear the Good News. It’s urgent that they accept God’s gracious offer of forgiveness and eternal life in Christ Jesus (Acts 2:40).

Practical Application #2: We Should Have a Passion to Spread the Gospel Where Christ is not yet Known

Paul certainly practiced what he preached. He himself had a burning passion to continually go to new areas where Christ is not yet known. A little later in Romans he writes:

NIV Romans 15:20a It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known,

We’re not all called to go to unreached people groups, but we should each do what we can to support such work. This includes:

* Learning about the unreached.
* Training up Christians to go to the unreached.
* Financially supporting those who go.
* Praying for those who go (this is really important)
* Being open to go​

Practical Application #3: Working to Overcome Language Barriers in Difficult Areas

Today, the main barrier to people hearing the gospel is not geographic distance. The main barrier to hearing the gospel languages where the Bible is not available and where few, in any, who speak that language are sharing the gospel. By God’s grace there are now at least some Christians in every political nation in the world. But when the Jesus spoke of “all nations” in the Great Commission He was referring to all ethnic people groups, not merely all political nations. Some political nations have many different ethnic people groups living in them and these ethnic people groups often speak different languages. For example, we lived in Indonesia for fourteen years. Just on the island we lived on (Sulawesi) there are estimated to be over 100 different languages spoken. These are truly different languages, not merely different dialects (there are often multiple dialects of each of the languages!). Many of those over 100 local languages include many speakers who have not heard the gospel, and have very little or no opportunity to hear it in their language.

We’ve come a long way in completing the Great Commission, but there is still a long ways to go. The cost of completing our task is high. Most of the unreached live in areas where there is intense opposition to the gospel. There is a great need for more people willing to go long term because it takes years to learn a new language and culture and win people and disciple them.

I feel that these “practical applications” related to the Great Commission and its urgency are the most important thing we should get out of the Bible’s teaching about those who have not heard. But because so many people struggle with the theological implications of this teaching, I will go on to share a few more thoughts.

Dangerous Speculation

Some people speculate that perhaps people who live in remote areas and who die without a chance to hear the gospel will be given a chance to accept Jesus after they die. While the Bible does not explicitly rule this possibility out, we need to consider how this speculative solutions fits, or doesn’t fit, with the logic of Romans 10:9-15. When Paul asks, “how can they believe in Him whom they have not heard”, his solution is NOT that those people will get a chance after they die. In fact, the logic of needing to go and preach would be undermined if there were chances to believe after death.

An Analogy

Here’s my own version of an analogy I’ve heard elsewhere (but I don’t remember where or from whom):

Imagine there is a man in an apartment building. He lives on the 5th floor. His building catches on fire. By the time he wakes up the four floors below him are on fire and the floor above him is on fire and the fire is burning outside his apartment in the hallway. He’s trapped. Thankfully, a fire truck with a long ladder shows up. A fireman appears outside his window and calls him to come and escape.

The trapped man says, “I think there might be a hidden fireproof escape under the rug somewhere. I’ll look for that.”

The fireman yells, “How do you know it’s there? Did the builder of the apartments tell you it was there?”

The trapped man replies, “No, but it makes sense to me that there would be a fire escape under a trap door under the carpet.”

Should the man look for the fire escape just because it makes sense in his mind that there should be one? Shouldn’t he instead focus on the one way out (the fireman with the ladder)? Does it make sense for people to speculate on a chance for salvation after death? The Bible says nothing about that. The “builder” hasn’t told us such a thing exists. Shouldn’t we just focus on the means of salvation which God has made available? Namely, going and telling people now, in this life, the Good News.

How this Might All Harmonize with God’s Justice, Goodness, and Foreknowledge

Still, people are understandably concerned about those who died without hearing. But it is wrong to assume that the only way God can be fair and good to those people is if He gives them a chance to believe and be saved after death.

God has not revealed in detail how He is fair to those who die without hearing, but we should have no doubt that God is entirely just in all He does. “Will not the judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25).

We should remember that it is not unjust for God to judge people for their sins and destroy their bodies and souls in hell (Matthew 10:28). That is what ALL people deserve based on our sins (Romans 3:23, 6:23). But there might be more to it. For example, it is possible that God has used his foreknowledge to arrange the world in such a way that everyone who would benefit by hearing the gospel does indeed hear the gospel. The Bible does teach that God determines when and where people will live (Acts 17:26). He may place those who would not have believed even if they heard the gospel in times and locations where the gospel has not been available. It is a possibility. God might not explicitly tell us this because we might be tempted to wrongly interpret it as meaning our Great Commission is less urgent. I share this possibility not because I know this is how it works, but to counter the type of thinking I hear from some universalists and others that God essentially MUST give unsaved people a chance to repent after death or else God is not really just, good, and loving.

Conclusion

It is not wrong for us to be concerned about those who have not heard. In fact, it is right and Biblical to care about them. It is a sign of the Holy Spirit working in our hearts to move us to complete the Great Commission which Christ gave us. Nor do I think it is wrong to think about the theological and philosophical implications of this issue. But God’s main response is an urgently practical one. Our concern about this issue should first and foremost inspire us to make every effort and great sacrifices to go and share the gospel with the unreached. Jesus will be with us as we go (Matthew 28:20).

about%2Bthose%2Bwho%2Bhaven%25E2%2580%2599t%2Bheard.jpg


This was initially a post on my blog.
God is merciful. You must actively turn from God to go to hell. So if someone doesn't know God, it will not be held against him. It might be held against someone who could have told him but didn't.
 
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ClementofA

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You repeated that their blessing came after death and I stated I do not believe that and said in the post you answer here, that they would have not been lost while living and would go to heaven because of not being able to choose between good and evil. That had nothing to do with an after dead blessing. Those are your words not mine. I stated mine, no salvation after death is ever offered.

Indeed, i say babies who die as such were not saved before they died & shall experience after death salvation. You deny this. Why is that?

However, Jesus said one must be born again of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-8). He said that being only born of the flesh, as babies are, no one can enter. For babies are not born again, i.e. saved, in this life. Therefore their salvation must be after death.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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True and we both fully agreed to that, what we don't fully agree with is whether any that are lost when they died will have another chance to be saved, I say scripture says no salvation chance after the first part of that verse you posted. Heb 9:27 for it is appointed unto all men once to die and and after this the judgment. :scratch:
 
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The Bible teaches that a person is saved when they hear the gospel and respond with repentance and true belief in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:13). It also teaches that belief in Jesus is the only way to salvation (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). Those who have been saved long to see others also saved. This often results in wrestling with a difficult question:

What happens to those who haven’t heard the Good News about Jesus?

Sometimes people try to use this question as a type of rhetorical weapon to demonstrate that Jesus can’t possibly be the only way of salvation. Oprah, echoing the thoughts of many before her, once asked the question in this way, as you can see in this 2 minute video clip (sorry, the picture is somewhat fuzzy, but the sound is clear):


So, what about those who haven’t heard? This is one of those questions which the Bible does not answer in an explicit, direct way. But that doesn’t mean the Bible does not address this question. Let’s consider what may be the most important passage on this issue. I encourage you to slow down and thoughtfully read this, even if you are already familiar with it:

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

It’s as if God says, “You should be worried about those people who haven’t heard. Here’s My solution: YOU go tell them. If you can’t go, then give and pray so that someone else can go.”

Admittedly, that’s not the type of answer people are looking for. But it is the type of answer God gives in His Word, which means it is the best type of answer and the most important type of answer. It’s a practical answer, so let’s stop and think a little about some practical applications of the truth that is declared in the verses above.

Practical Application #1: People Who are Asking about those Who Haven’t Heard are People who Have Heard

If a non-Christian is asking about people who have never heard as an objection to the truth of the Bible (and I’ve heard it asked that way), it may help to gently remind them that they are not in that category. If God makes any special provisions for those who haven’t heard, these provisions would NOT apply to the person who is asking about them, since they obviously have heard the gospel. If they reject the gospel now, the Bible offers NO guarantee that they will have another chance tomorrow (Hebrews 3:15, Proverbs 27:1, Isaiah 55:6). Not only are they not in the category of people who have not had a chance to hear the gospel, most people who are asking about those who haven’t had a chance to hear have never met anyone in this category. Very likely all their friends, family members, coworkers, and neighbors have had and do have many chances to hear the Good News. It’s urgent that they accept God’s gracious offer of forgiveness and eternal life in Christ Jesus (Acts 2:40).

Practical Application #2: We Should Have a Passion to Spread the Gospel Where Christ is not yet Known

Paul certainly practiced what he preached. He himself had a burning passion to continually go to new areas where Christ is not yet known. A little later in Romans he writes:

NIV Romans 15:20a It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known,

We’re not all called to go to unreached people groups, but we should each do what we can to support such work. This includes:

* Learning about the unreached.
* Training up Christians to go to the unreached.
* Financially supporting those who go.
* Praying for those who go (this is really important)
* Being open to go​

Practical Application #3: Working to Overcome Language Barriers in Difficult Areas

Today, the main barrier to people hearing the gospel is not geographic distance. The main barrier to hearing the gospel languages where the Bible is not available and where few, in any, who speak that language are sharing the gospel. By God’s grace there are now at least some Christians in every political nation in the world. But when the Jesus spoke of “all nations” in the Great Commission He was referring to all ethnic people groups, not merely all political nations. Some political nations have many different ethnic people groups living in them and these ethnic people groups often speak different languages. For example, we lived in Indonesia for fourteen years. Just on the island we lived on (Sulawesi) there are estimated to be over 100 different languages spoken. These are truly different languages, not merely different dialects (there are often multiple dialects of each of the languages!). Many of those over 100 local languages include many speakers who have not heard the gospel, and have very little or no opportunity to hear it in their language.

We’ve come a long way in completing the Great Commission, but there is still a long ways to go. The cost of completing our task is high. Most of the unreached live in areas where there is intense opposition to the gospel. There is a great need for more people willing to go long term because it takes years to learn a new language and culture and win people and disciple them.

I feel that these “practical applications” related to the Great Commission and its urgency are the most important thing we should get out of the Bible’s teaching about those who have not heard. But because so many people struggle with the theological implications of this teaching, I will go on to share a few more thoughts.

Dangerous Speculation

Some people speculate that perhaps people who live in remote areas and who die without a chance to hear the gospel will be given a chance to accept Jesus after they die. While the Bible does not explicitly rule this possibility out, we need to consider how this speculative solutions fits, or doesn’t fit, with the logic of Romans 10:9-15. When Paul asks, “how can they believe in Him whom they have not heard”, his solution is NOT that those people will get a chance after they die. In fact, the logic of needing to go and preach would be undermined if there were chances to believe after death.

An Analogy

Here’s my own version of an analogy I’ve heard elsewhere (but I don’t remember where or from whom):

Imagine there is a man in an apartment building. He lives on the 5th floor. His building catches on fire. By the time he wakes up the four floors below him are on fire and the floor above him is on fire and the fire is burning outside his apartment in the hallway. He’s trapped. Thankfully, a fire truck with a long ladder shows up. A fireman appears outside his window and calls him to come and escape.

The trapped man says, “I think there might be a hidden fireproof escape under the rug somewhere. I’ll look for that.”

The fireman yells, “How do you know it’s there? Did the builder of the apartments tell you it was there?”

The trapped man replies, “No, but it makes sense to me that there would be a fire escape under a trap door under the carpet.”

Should the man look for the fire escape just because it makes sense in his mind that there should be one? Shouldn’t he instead focus on the one way out (the fireman with the ladder)? Does it make sense for people to speculate on a chance for salvation after death? The Bible says nothing about that. The “builder” hasn’t told us such a thing exists. Shouldn’t we just focus on the means of salvation which God has made available? Namely, going and telling people now, in this life, the Good News.

How this Might All Harmonize with God’s Justice, Goodness, and Foreknowledge

Still, people are understandably concerned about those who died without hearing. But it is wrong to assume that the only way God can be fair and good to those people is if He gives them a chance to believe and be saved after death.

God has not revealed in detail how He is fair to those who die without hearing, but we should have no doubt that God is entirely just in all He does. “Will not the judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25).

We should remember that it is not unjust for God to judge people for their sins and destroy their bodies and souls in hell (Matthew 10:28). That is what ALL people deserve based on our sins (Romans 3:23, 6:23). But there might be more to it. For example, it is possible that God has used his foreknowledge to arrange the world in such a way that everyone who would benefit by hearing the gospel does indeed hear the gospel. The Bible does teach that God determines when and where people will live (Acts 17:26). He may place those who would not have believed even if they heard the gospel in times and locations where the gospel has not been available. It is a possibility. God might not explicitly tell us this because we might be tempted to wrongly interpret it as meaning our Great Commission is less urgent. I share this possibility not because I know this is how it works, but to counter the type of thinking I hear from some universalists and others that God essentially MUST give unsaved people a chance to repent after death or else God is not really just, good, and loving.

Conclusion

It is not wrong for us to be concerned about those who have not heard. In fact, it is right and Biblical to care about them. It is a sign of the Holy Spirit working in our hearts to move us to complete the Great Commission which Christ gave us. Nor do I think it is wrong to think about the theological and philosophical implications of this issue. But God’s main response is an urgently practical one. Our concern about this issue should first and foremost inspire us to make every effort and great sacrifices to go and share the gospel with the unreached. Jesus will be with us as we go (Matthew 28:20).

about%2Bthose%2Bwho%2Bhaven%25E2%2580%2599t%2Bheard.jpg


This was initially a post on my blog.
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Every Christian eventually asks the question “Is it unjust for God to destroy people for their sins who never heard the Good News?” Mark, you make insightful points for any who by reason determine what God is. However, if everything is understood about God, then the relationship to Him is based upon knowledge rather than faith and trust. Even the human need to make rational sense of what is revealed about God becomes a construction of God by speculation and might not be the God of the Bible.

There should be nothing about divine revelation which requires divine revelation to be rational according to human reason. Neither should there be the assumption that divine revelation reveals what would be necessary to satisfy human curiosity or reason. All that should faithfully be expected is enough revelation for the divine plan to be effective. This is reason enough to warn that speculation upon what the Bible means can never be divine revelation and might become idolatrous.

In your post you repeatedly discount your own speculation, and I believe you are wise to do so. Obviously, you are not attempting to provide an answer but suggesting possible solutions.

Trusting God means you do not need to know what is not revealed.
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JohnRabbit

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True and we both fully agreed to that, what we don't fully agree with is whether any that are lost when they died will have another chance to be saved, I say scripture says no salvation chance after the first part of that verse you posted. Heb 9:27 for it is appointed unto all men once to die and and after this the judgment. :scratch:
it's not another chance!

if you haven't heard, then you had no chance!

however, this is how heb 9:27 ties in:

Rev 20
12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

during the day of judgment, those who have never heard will have an opportunity to hear. the books that were opened are the books of the bible.
 
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the old scribe

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that is the worst thing that you could possibly say to an atheist. They don't know! After a lifetime surrounded by horrible people they are totally confused. "Common sense" means absolutely nothing. The ultimate nature of reality might be obvious to YOU but to them there isn't a single thing that can be trusted without frequent reinforcement and verification.

Imagine that you are growing up in an abusive household. You have no faith that mommy or daddy won't come home drunk and beat the snot out of you. That might come home sober or they might be a bat out of hell! That is what the universe looks like to them!
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An atheist knows there is not a divine being.
An agnostic does not know if there is a divine being.
A theists knows there is a divine being.

Theology is knowledge about God.
It is interesting enough just to point out each of these statements is a theological position.
Everybody has a theology - even atheists.

Every atheist I have encountered, at least in their own considerations, has given considerable thought to the existence of a divine being. Their considerable considerations have concluded there is not a divine being. Some are famous philosophers and Christian professors while others have little education but have been concerned enough to formulate a position. All atheists are concerned about God. Why else would they feel the need to announce a negative position as to His existence? Have you ever met an atheists who would not talk to you about the existence of God? Atheists are concerned with the idea if there is a Santa Clause or not and neither is there is an association of a-claustes.
 
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the old scribe

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What of the case of young children who die not knowing anything about Christ? Are they condemned to hell?
----------------------------------------------------

Psalm 69.28 Book of Life

Some also use the imprecatory Psalm 69 as indicating that all people begin life with their names in the “Book of Life.” Therefore, before one is old enough to sin all people are saved – or new borns have their names in the “Book of Life.” The psalmist is asking for his adversaries to be blotted from the “Book of Life.”

Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
 
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the old scribe

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Does telling Christians: “You are personally responsible for teaching the lost and if any are lost it is your fault.” help?

The reason we should go and teach others is because it is our privilege and honor to take the gospel message to those who have not heard it. Christ has commanded we do this, but that is because it helps us grow and value what we have been given. We have the debt of being taught by others ourselves.

When we talk about people being lost and saved we have to keep in mind: “God judges the hearts of people and it is his choice and not ours”.

There are those that have never reached adult maturity to the point they are responsible for their sins so they would be in a safe condition, not needing salvation, but would also not have fulfilled their earthly objective.

If a sincere nonbeliever who has never heard of Christ has given up on self to relieve him of the burden in his conscience created by his hurting others in the past (sin) and turns in hope to the benevolent Creator for help, will God help him?
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Your question demonstrate your heart is in a right relationship with the Lord.
However, who and when someone hears the gospel is not dependent upon me, you, or any Christians. You are right it is our privilege, but the Lord is not limited by my disobedience or failure. When you get old enough to recognize a failed opportunity only to see another brother with you lead a person to the Lord - you will tend to step up to the plate on the next one. Our meek and embarrassed crawl through the enemy can be transformed into a victory march hand in hand with the Lord if we believe and see with the eyes of angels. We really do have good news!
 
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Does speaking from the heart count for those who are mutes?
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Romans 8:26-27 NASB
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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it's not another chance!

if you haven't heard, then you had no chance!

however, this is how heb 9:27 ties in:

Rev 20
12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

during the day of judgment, those who have never heard will have an opportunity to hear. the books that were opened are the books of the bible.

I can see why you only posted v12 but had you went on to show the context you and others could have seen what judgment followed those from v12; Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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JohnRabbit

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I can see why you only posted v12 but had you went on to show the context you and others could have seen what judgment followed those from v12; Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
i'm guessing you're trying to make a point? :scratch:
 
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i'm guessing you're trying to make a point? :scratch:

You said at the end of your post; during the day of judgment, those who have never heard will have an opportunity to hear. the books that were opened are the books of the bible.

The verse you stated as I said before and posted the context says the dead and Hades were cast into the lake of fire and anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. I was assuming you were talking about dead people have a second chance as there are no others mentioned.
Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Besides that it has been shown before from Roman 1 that there is no one that has not been shown their responsibility to seek after God, Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

And now you are saying that the books of the bible are the books that will be open when it is no where in the text of chapter 20 nor anywhere else in scripture, where did you come with that idea? The books that are opened are listed in the text. It would appear also that everyone is judged according to their deeds perform while living and will receive just judgment according their responses, God is the judge
 
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