Revelation 20:1-6 A Literal Kingdom?

PeaceJoyLove said:

That remained another 40 days on the earth before being taken up into heaven in a cloud...glorified. (Israel wandered 40 years in the wilderness to reach the promised land is a picture of the same truth as it relates to our soul...)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

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Almost there said:

I believe God's active influence may be what holds all atoms together in the first place. It may just "come apart". This may result in who knows what.

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Interesting thought. I'm thinking only the earth and it's "heaven" i.e. the atmosphere will be destroyed because after it's all over sin is totally destroyed in that throughout the entire universe no sin exists anywhere (except here on earth).... and the meek shall inherit the earth (the new earth) and also God establishes his kingdom here on earth ... so seems like we (the earth) are the only place left in the universe where sin is present.
I don't find anything biblically to support "come apart" if you mean in the sense totally come apart and blown to smithereens. It always talks about the earth being destroyed by fire.

There is this verse:

Malachi 4
3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

says will be ashes - pretty tough to have ashes underfoot if they are floating all over the universe.

In Genisis

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

"heavens" here is defined in the Hebrew:

shamayim: heaven, sky
Original Word: שָׁמַ֫יִם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shamayim
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mah'-yim)
Short Definition: heaven
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
heaven, sky

And earth is

erets: earth, land
Original Word: אָ֫רֶץ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: erets
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-rets)
Short Definition: land

Whether He does a "earth makeover" after the fire, or creates a brand new one ????

Thus far (unless I find something else in His word) I believe he's going to do a creation "make over" after the earth is totally consumed by fire.

Guess we'll find out when it happens ;o) Amen

PeaceJoyLove said:

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

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Not sure what your point is here? or what you are applying it to?

In our conversations would you please give the verse location and then provide your understanding of that verse. Otherwise it gets very confusing. Thanks.

BABerean2 said:

Your statement above is correct.
You just revealed that the millennial reign ends at the Second Coming of Christ, which is found at the end of Revelation chapter 6, and chapter 11, and the "harvest" of chapter 14, and when He "comes as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16, and in chapter 19, and at the end of chapter 20.

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i don't recall saying that at all. What I revealed is after the millennial reign heaven and earth will pass over so please don't misrepresent me. I didn't actually even reveal this as the bible says it plainly in Rev 21. Revelations seems to describe things in different groupings each with it's own timeline, John describes them as "then I saw...." but they don't necessarily represent a continuous thread from start to end but perhaps instead several overlapping threads that tell the same story.

I think what is more useful in Revelation is to order key events as foundational items to help balance and understand the placement of the rest. I would suggest the second coming and the end of the millennial reign however are separate events and should not be confused with each other.

ICONO'CLAST said:

Rev20 does not mention a physical earthly reign.

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Didn't say it did.

There is one solitary passage pertaining to "1000 years" in the entire Bible (Rev 20:1-9). There are zero mentions of it in the Old Testament, gospels or epistles. One can't find a single other mention of the so-called "millennium" anywhere else in scripture. Not anywhere. The fact is, there is no literal 1000 years--it is a symbol. The bible writers leave no place anywhere on any timeline that accommodates a literal 1000 years. Here's how we know the "1000 Years" of Rev 20 is a symbol and is not a true time period:

#1) Christ's judgment of the living and the dead together occurs at his coming (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15,17-18). Thus, premillennialism is false.

#2) The resurrection of the dead occurs at his coming (1 Cor 15:22-23), and that resurrection is of the just and unjust together (John 5:27-29, Acts 24:15, Daniel 12:1-2). Thus, premillennialism is false.

#3) Paul says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the Second Coming (1 Thess 5:2-5); Peter says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the "passing of heavens and Earth" (2 Peter 3:10); Jesus says the Thief in the Night related to the first-century churches (Rev 3:2-3). As we see, no literal 1000 years can be made to fit in here anywhere. The new heavens/earth and His coming are clearly simultaneous. Thus, premillennialism is false.

#4) Christ's reign isn't limited to 1000 years, nor are we still waiting for it to begin. Rather, It is eternal (Isa 9:6-7). He has been the King of kings for 20 centuries now and is the only Sovereign of Heaven and Earth (Matt 28:18-19/Rev 1:5-6/1 Tim 6:15/1 Pet 3:22/Rom 14:9). We are not waiting for Christ to reign. He reigns, and the increase of his government has no end. Thus, premillennialism is false.

As we know, Premillennialists wrongly divide these singular events into many scattered events and intersperse them over a long period of a thousand years, with some parts happening at some "rapture," some happening at a coming of Christ, and some happening after the completion of a literal thousand years--which is false. Scripture fully refutes premillennialism.

God did not ever give more information that contradicted previous information. A literal "thousand years" directly contradicts God's revelation given at Dan 12:1-2, Jn 5:27-29, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:22-23.

Quite plainly, the Old Testament, the gospels and the epistles know nothing about a millennium. Nothing at all. The odd and fanciful doctrine of millennialism is based on one symbolic passage in a highly symbolic vision. The "thousand years" is a symbol.

Truth7t7 said:

Matthew 24:21 happened literally in 70AD?

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Absolutely.

Almost there said:

"for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be."

That "ever shall be" part kind negates that. There was some nastiness for the Jews back in the early 1940's IIRC.

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Comparing scripture with scripture quickly demonstrates this usage of "ever was nor ever shall be":

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hyperbolic Hebraic idiom.

St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
"These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people." (Luke 21:22-23)

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

Even so, AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

eleos1954 said:

Interesting thought. I'm thinking only the earth and it's "heaven" i.e. the atmosphere will be destroyed because after it's all over sin is totally destroyed in that throughout the entire universe no sin exists anywhere (except here on earth).... and the meek shall inherit the earth (the new earth) and also God establishes his kingdom here on earth ... so seems like we (the earth) are the only place left in the universe where sin is present.
I don't find anything biblically to support "come apart" if you mean in the sense totally come apart and blown to smithereens. It always talks about the earth being destroyed by fire.

There is this verse:

Malachi 4
3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

says will be ashes - pretty tough to have ashes underfoot if they are floating all over the universe.

In Genisis

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

"heavens" here is defined in the Hebrew:

shamayim: heaven, sky
Original Word: שָׁמַ֫יִם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shamayim
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mah'-yim)
Short Definition: heaven
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
heaven, sky

And earth is

erets: earth, land
Original Word: אָ֫רֶץ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: erets
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-rets)
Short Definition: land

Whether He does a "earth makeover" after the fire, or creates a brand new one ????

Thus far (unless I find something else in His word) I believe he's going to do a creation "make over" after the earth is totally consumed by fire.

Guess we'll find out when it happens ;o) Amen



Not sure what your point is here? or what you are applying it to?

In our conversations would you please give the verse location and then provide your understanding of that verse. Otherwise it gets very confusing. Thanks.

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The scripture quote is from John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

You say "no sin exists anywhere (except here on earth)"...and it is within the hearts of men...Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29

God is a consuming fire. Why burn up the earth when it is within the heart of man, this sin?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The promise is scripture is that by the spirit of Christ living within, we shall overcome...what happened to Adam in the garden will be reconciled back to God. Adam was given a change of eyesight/perception after defying God's commandment, "Thou shalt not eat..." and asked "Where art thou?"

Matthew 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

parousia70 said:

We are not waiting for Christ to reign. He reigns, and the increase of his government has no end.

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Amen! Many await for their spiritual eyes to be opened/awakened to the truth of who we are...Christ in you the hope of glory. As scripture says, no man can 'see' lest he die...does not mean physically. When the spirit reveals that truth, our perception changes...God exalts (each man in his own order)/lifts up/raises up so we can 'see' as He 'sees' from WHERE He is...HE is already here, if we can "SEE"....

We must believe the promises to be true for He can only give us what we see as possible...

mark kennedy said:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.​

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All the elements burn with a fervent heat, how is that anything other then literal and physical?

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"Elements" is the Greek "stoicheion" and is always used in scripture to refer to the basic, rudementary principles of the "law", not the "periodic table" as you would apparently have it.

Here are ALL uses of "stoicheion" in scripture:

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements(stoicheion) of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,(stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

And finally.......
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


When we let scripture interprate itself, we can clearly see that the "elements" that melted with fervent heat of 2 Peter 3, were the "first principles of the oracles of God" of Hebrews 5:12 above.
They are the same.

When you interprate "elements" to mean rocks, dirt etc, and even going so amazingly far out as to interprate "stoicheion" to mean "planet earth", you are making the apostles, and therefore scripture, say something they are absolutely, irrefutably not saying at all.

Obviously, when rightly divided, the honest Bible expositor can only conclude that this stoicheia that Peter speaks of as "MELTING" in 2 Peter 3, is not about atoms or destruction of the universe, rather this is the elements of religious training, or the ceremonial precepts common to the worship of Jews under the Mosaic Covenant, which indeed DID burn with fervant heat along with the temple in 70AD.

Truth7t7 said:

There is no dead resurrected in revelation 20:1-6, the resurrection of the believer is on "The Last Day" at the second advent. John 6:40

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No resurrection?


You are being intellectually dishonest. It's right there in the text and pointed out multiple times in plain text. There is no point going on any further if you aren't even going to honestly use the text you cite as your proof. Completely childish. Your lies on this subject aren't worth any more of my time.

Almost there said:

I'm with you in spirit, but just though I'd mention that we are talking about Revelation, here - Where churches are lampstands, Jesus is a lamb, and the second death is a "lake of fire".

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What does that have to do with the passage he cited?

parousia70 said:

Jesus promised this thiefs coming would befall first century peoples: Revelation 3:3
We are not to teach otherwise.​

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No he didn't, he said he would come like a thief in the night. He explains this will be at a time when you don't expect.

"Elements" is the Greek "stoicheion" and is always used in scripture to refer to the basic, rudementary principles of the "law", not the "periodic table" as you would apparently have it.

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It's the same word the ancient Greeks used to speak of Euclid's elements.

Here is one definition:

Elements: (G4747 στοιχεῖον stoicheion) Any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal

• The letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
• The elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
• The heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
• The elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline, i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry (Outline of Biblical Usage)

Clearly Peter is indicating the primary elements of the physical world.

Here are ALL uses of "stoicheion" in scripture:

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements(stoicheion) of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,(stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

And finally.......
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

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I have access to a concordance as well, and dictionaries as well.

When we let scripture interprate itself, we can clearly see that the "elements" that melted with fervent heat of 2 Peter 3, were the "first principles of the oracles of God" of Hebrews 5:12 above.
They are the same.

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No there not, that's absurd, he is not talking about the Old Testament Law, he is obviously talking about the heavens and the earth:

When you interprate "elements" to mean rocks, dirt etc, and even going so amazingly far out as to interprate "stoicheion" to mean "planet earth", you are making the apostles, and therefore scripture, say something they are absolutely, irrefutably not saying at all.

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Did you think I wasn't going to look this up? What your saying is not only not irrefutable, it's clearly and obviously wrong.

Obviously, when rightly divided, the honest Bible expositor can only conclude that this stoicheia that Peter speaks of as "MELTING" in 2 Peter 3, is not about atoms or destruction of the universe, rather this is the elements of religious training, or the ceremonial precepts common to the worship of Jews under the Mosaic Covenant, which indeed DID burn with fervant heat along with the temple in 70AD.

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I know the Scriptures and how to get back to the source material. This was easily refuted by doing a simple word search and I'm not the one pushing a bogus exposition. Peter is talking about the new heavens and the new earth, one of the core teachings of the gospel. Get thee to a lexicon.

Have a nice day
Mark

eleos1954 said:

In Genisis

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

"heavens" here is defined in the Hebrew:

shamayim: heaven, sky
Original Word: שָׁמַ֫יִם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shamayim
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mah'-yim)
Short Definition: heaven
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
heaven, sky

And earth is

erets: earth, land
Original Word: אָ֫רֶץ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: erets
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-rets)
Short Definition: land

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In Leviticus 26:14-20, God warns Israel that she must listen and obey Him in the commandments that He has given them. God uses various terms and expressions in describing what it will be like if they despise His statutes, but notice particularly verse 19: "and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass."

Notice how the character of Israel's disposition in God's view is personalized, "your heaven" and "your earth." So the terms "heaven" and "earth" belong or relate to Israel, they evidently constitute a "heaven" and "earth."

Isaiah 1:1-2 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;

Who is God speaking to here? the physical creation? or is he speaking to Israel? Is he telling the dirt and clouds to listen to him, or people?

Another example of "heaven and earth" being referred to the Covenant World of Israel, and not literal creation, is Isaiah 51:16, "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people." Notice that God is speaking to Israel. He says he gave them his law, the Old Covenant, the same law Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 5:17-18, to establish heaven and lay the foundation of the earth! Clearly God is not saying he gave the Old Covenant to Israel to create literal heaven and earth! Material creation existed long before Israel was ever given the Old Covenant.

The meaning of this verse is that God gave his covenant with Israel to create their world--a covenant world with God! God created Israel's "heaven and earth" by giving them his Covenant. Now if he destroyed that Old Covenant heaven and earth and gave a New Covenant, would he not thereby be creating a New heaven and earth? This is precisely the thought in the New Covenant Scriptures!

This idea is seen more clearly as we look at other passages where mention is made of the destruction of a state and government using language which seems to set forth the end of the world, as the collapse of heaven and earth.

In Isaiah 13:1-13, this is not an oracle against the universe or world, but against the nation of Babylon. Notice verse 13, "Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place."

Now remember, he is speaking about the destruction of Babylon, but it sounds like world widedestruction. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon. If you were a Babylonian and Babylon was destroyed would it seem like the world was destroyed? Yes! Your world would be destroyed.

This is an historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon (Isaiah 13:17), the Babylonian world came to an end. This destruction is said in verse 6 to be from the Almighty, and the Medes constitute the means that God uses to accomplish this task. The physical heaven and earth were still in tact, but for Babylon they had collapsed. This is apocalyptic language. This is the way the scripture discusses the fall of a nation.

In Isaiah 24-27 we see the invasion of Israel by Nebuchadnezzar. He carries them away to captivity. Notice the language that he uses in Isaiah 24:3-6 and Isaiah 24:19-20. What I want you to see in these verses is how God refers to Israel as the earth. He says the earth is "utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly...the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again" (Verses 1,3,4,19,20). Notice how many times God referred to Israel as the "earth." This is apocalyptic language speaking of the destruction of the people of Israel.

In Isaiah 34:3-5, we have a description of the fall of Edom, notice the language that is used. "...and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down...For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment." This is Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It should be clear that it is not to be taken literally.

In Nahum 1:1-5, the subject of this judgment is Nineveh, not the physical world. "The burden of Nineveh...the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers...The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein." This is the way God describes the fall of a nation. If this language describes the judgment of God on nations, why, when we come to the New Testament, do we make it be the destruction of the universe? It is only because we do not understand how the scripture uses this apocalyptic language.

The New Testament does not contain brand new prophecies that just dropped out of the sky containing new information.

Now, some use the argument from 2 Peter 3:5-7 that the world was destroyed in Noah's day and the world will be destroyed again. Lets consider that argument.

Peter says that the world consisted of heaven and earth, and that they were destroyed by water and perished. We know that the LITERAL substance of neither heaven or earth was destroyed, but it was the evil men that were destroyed, God brought "the flood upon the world of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5). Peter makes a distinction between the heaven and earth of Noah's day which were destroyed, and the heaven and earth that existed then which were to be destroyed by fire. The literal visible fabric of heaven and earth were the same after the flood as they were before the flood. Lets remember what we saw in the Old Testament as to the apocalyptic use of heaven and earth. The destruction of heaven and earth refers to the civil and religious state, and the men of them. What was it that really perished in the flood? Look at verse 6 – "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished." It was the world that perished, right? Now what does the word "world" mean? It is the orderly arrangement of society, it wasn't the dirt. Now how do you go from an ungodly society that was destroyed to the destruction of the entire universe? The literal earth was not destroyed. What is to be destroyed is the ungodly nation of Israel. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the physical creation will be destroyed. Notice what God said after the flood of Noah's day in Genesis 8:21.
Genesis 8:21, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."
Now, folks will say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change his method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is he promising not to destroy the earth again?

God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." In Genesis 8:21, God said he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word. "…the earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4). And remember Isaiah 9:7, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." If the earth is to be destroyed, then that would be the end of the increase of Christ's government.

The Hyper Literalist is in essence calling God a LIAR when he claims God will destroy this present earth in our future and replace it whith a materially different "new" one, because we see above that God promised to NEVER destroy the Literal Earth, and He also promised to "NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND, and NEVER AGAIN Smite every living thing.

SeventyOne said:

No resurrection?

They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. ​

You are being intellectually dishonest. It's right there in the text and pointed out multiple times in plain text. There is no point going on any further if you aren't even going to honestly use the text you cite as your proof. Completely childish. Your lies on this subject aren't worth any more of my time.

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The attempt here is to directly contradict the obvious meaning of the text. I can't help but wonder, do they think Christians don't know their own Scriptures?

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy said:

The attempt here is to directly contradict the obvious meaning of the text. I can't help but wonder, do they think Christians don't know their own Scriptures?

Grace and peace,
Mark

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It's most likely an intentional misquoting of scriptures with the intent to deceive.

mark kennedy said:

​

No he didn't.

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Of course He did.
Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Mark, the YOU in this passage are the 1st century Christians at Sardis.
There is no reasonable, bibical mandate to REMOVE them from direct application of this passage as you are doing.
Jesus was speaking TO THEM about things that were to befall THEM in THEIR DAY.

It's the same word the ancient Greeks used to speak of Euclid's elements.

Here is one definition:

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Definitions can be helpful, however usage ALWAYS trumps etymology.
I have shown conclusively that the NT USAGE of Stoeicheion eliminates the periodic table as the definition here.

Clearly Peter is indicating the primary elements of the physical world.

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Clearly the opposite is true.

Peter is talking about the new heavens and the new earth, one of the core teachings of the gospel. Get thee to a lexicon.

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get thee to my post #72 above

Have a nice day
Mark

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You too friend!

parousia70 said:

Of course He did.
Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Mark, the YOU in this passage iare the 1st century Christians at Sardis.
There is not reasonable, bibical mandate to REMOVE them for direct application of this passage as you are doing.

Definitions can be helpful, however usage ALWAYS trumps etymology.
I have shown conclusively that the NT USAGE of Stoeicheion eliminates the periodic table as the definition here.

Clearly the opposite is true.

get thee to my post #72 above

You too friend!

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So you can't be bothered with lexicon and dictionary definitions, but you want to deny the clear meaning of the text. I read and responded to your argument, it's baseless.

DamianWarS said:

i don't recall saying that at all. What I revealed is after the millennial reign heaven and earth will pass over so please don't misrepresent me. I didn't actually even reveal this as the bible says it plainly in Rev 21. Revelations seems to describe things in different groupings each with it's own timeline, John describes them as "then I saw...." but they don't necessarily represent a continuous thread from start to end but perhaps instead several overlapping threads that tell the same story.

I think what is more useful in Revelation is to order key events as foundational items to help balance and understand the placement of the rest. I would suggest the second coming and the end of the millennial reign however are separate events and should not be confused with each other.

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I don't intend to "misrepresent" anyone, I might need further clarification, I might misunderstand something you said or vicel-versa. So please don't take it that way and neither will I. It is really difficult conversing through text. It's all just discussion, no harm or malice ... just discussing beliefs and why we believe or not believe them.

You said:
I would suggest the second coming and the end of the millennial reign however are separate events and should not be confused with each other.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are separate events: Separated events

The Two Resurrections. Christ taught that there are two general resurrections: a "'resurrection of life'" for the just and a "'resurrection of condemnation'" for the unjust (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15). The 1000 years separates these resurrections (Rev. 20:4, 5).

1. The resurrection of life. Those who are raised in the first resurrection are called "blessed and holy" (Rev. 20:6). They will not experience the second death in the lake of fire at the close of the 1000 years (verse 14). This resurrection to life and immortality (John 5:29; 1 Cor. 15:52, 53) takes place at the Second Advent (1 Cor. 15:22, 23; 1 Thess. 4:15-18). Those who experience it cannot die anymore (Luke 20:36). They are united with Christ forever.

What will the resurrected body be like? Like Christ, the resurrected saints will have real bodies. And as Christ arose a glorified being, so will the righteous. Paul said that Christ "will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body" (Phil. 3:21). He calls the unglorified body and the glorified one the "natural body" and the "spiritual body," respectively; the former being mortal and corruptible, the latter immortal and imperishable. The change from mortality to immortality takes place instantaneously at the resurrection (see 1 Cor. 15:42-54).

Satan is bound to the earth (he is by himself) for the 1,000 years

Rev 20

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed itover him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

2. The resurrection of condemnation. The unrighteous are raised in the second general resurrection, which takes place at the end of the 1000 years. This resurrection proceeds to the final judgment and condemnation (John 5:29). Those whose names are not found in the book of life will be raised at this time and "cast into the lake of fire" and experience the second death (Rev. 20:15, 14).

The Defeat of Satan

Rev 20

7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea (i.e. Satan and his minions (the fallen angels, and the resurrected wicked dead). 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire (i.e.: destruction of them and entire earth by fire), and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The finally the good news:

Rev 21

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,a for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:

“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,

and He will live with them.

They will be His people,

and God Himself will be with them as their God.b

4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,c

and there will be no more death

or mourning or crying or pain,

for the former things have passed away.”

5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

Personal Note: Boy it is really really difficult trying to converse through text isn't it? I'm sure we will have more misunderstandings that need clarification.... Lord willing, we'll get through it ;o)

I think if we could somehow break the conversation down step by step it might be better???

God Bless

Truth7t7 said:

its a spirutual kingdom, dont be silly

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What about what Jesus also said in the following?

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return
when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him



Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

when these things begin to come to pass---your redemption draweth nigh
when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand


they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return
when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him
when these things begin to come to pass---your redemption draweth nigh
when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand


Just ignore what all Jesus also said above, right? Isn't it pretty clear from the above that when Jesus walked the earth before He died, they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear?

How did Jesus deal with that at the time? By speaking a parable, where in the parable it's obvious a certain nobleman is meaning Jesus Himself. Going into a far country meaning His ascension into heaven where He is still currently. To receive for himself a kingdom, that explained per Daniel 7:13-14 and what took place once He reached the Father following His ascension back into heaven in the first century.
And to return, obviously referring to the 2nd coming that is still future.

When he was returned, having received the kingdom---obviously meaning the 2nd coming.

when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Obviously meaning the things coming to pass prior to His return. Know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand---obviously meaning it can't already be here if it's nigh at hand when these things start coming to pass before He returns. Obviously then, the kingdom Jesus went to receive, and is yet to return with it, this is meaning a literal physical kingdom. All of the above prove it.

Why would none of the above, after Jesus has returned with the literal physical kingdom, not have anything to do with the thousand years in Revelation 20?

mark kennedy said:

So you can't be bothered with lexicon and dictionary definitions,

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As I said, they can indeed be helpful. That you don't believe usage trumps etymology is your own stumbling block, not mine.

Here, help yourself a bit:

Lets apply your definition of Stoicheion to Hebrews 5:12 and see how it works for ya:

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the [Euclids Elements] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

That's REALLY how you claim we should read Hebrews 5:12?

but you want to deny the clear meaning of the text.

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Rather, I use scripture to interpret scripture to AFFIRM the clear meaning.. you appear to be the one tossing scriptural precident out the window in favor of non scriptural definitions that you MUST apply to the text to conform the text to your preconceived view.

I read and responded to your argument, it's baseless.

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You are welcome to that opinion.
Our readers have enough information from each of us to determine for themselves which of our views has the weight of scripture behind it.

DavidPT said:

What about what Jesus also said in the following?

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

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Notice in the parable that the Nobleman returned to the very servants he left... not to some other generation of servants thousands of years removed, but the very ones he gave the money to.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

when these things begin to come to pass---your redemption draweth nigh
when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand

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Do you suppose James was aware of this statement of Jesus when he, practically quoting Him, said this:
James 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Certainly James knew that the Coming of the Lord would NOT be Near, at hand, and at the doors UNTIL AFTER those signs were seen, and not before, no?

How did Jesus deal with that at the time? By speaking a parable, where in the parable it's obvious a certain nobleman is meaning Jesus Himself. Going into a far country meaning His ascension into heaven where He is still currently. To receive for himself a kingdom, that explained per Daniel 7:13-14 and what took place once He reached the Father following His ascension back into heaven in the first century.

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So far so good....

And to return, obviously referring to the 2nd coming that is still future.

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Only if you throw out the fact that, in the parable, the Nobleman, whom you rightly identify as Jesus, returns to the very living breathing servants He left, and not some future generation..

when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Obviously meaning the things coming to pass prior to His return. Know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand---obviously meaning it can't already be here if it's nigh at hand when these things start coming to pass before He returns. Obviously then, the kingdom Jesus went to receive, and is yet to return with it, this is meaning a literal physical kingdom. All of the above prove it.

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Then what was James blabbering on about in James 5 above?
Was he wrong?