Why Believers in Yeshua are NOT under the Law of Moses, part two

Doug Melven

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"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be (2c)"
Where did this come from?
Fulfill G4137 From G4134; to make replete that is (literally) to cram (a net) level up

anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Looking at Galatians 5:14 it does not say what you said it does.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law. Jesus knew when He started His ministry that He would die on the cross. Just because He did not fulfill it at the beginning of His ministry is not a reason to say that that was not His mission.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Where did this come from?
Fulfill G4137 From G4134; to make replete that is (literally) to cram (a net) level up


14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Looking at Galatians 5:14 it does not say what you said it does.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law. Jesus knew when He started His ministry that He would die on the cross. Just because He did not fulfill it at the beginning of His ministry is not a reason to say that that was not His mission.
#4137 is also used in Revelation 2 times:

Strong's Greek: 4137. πληρόω (pléroó) -- to make full, to complete

Gal 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled G4137 in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rev 3:2
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect G4137 before God.

Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. G4137
 
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Doug Melven

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#4137 is also used in Revelation 2 times:

Strong's Greek: 4137. πληρόω (pléroó) -- to make full, to complete

Gal 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled G4137 in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rev 3:2
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect G4137 before God.

Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. G4137

↑Soyeong said: ↑
"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be (2c)"

Where did this come from?
 
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Soyeong

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Where did this come from?
Fulfill G4137 From G4134; to make replete that is (literally) to cram (a net) level up

I got it from here (2c):

Pleroo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

It is the only definition that is specifically in regard to the context of God's Law, it fits with what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next, it fits with how other verses use the word, and it fits with how other Jewish writings use the word, though pleroo can also be understood as filling up or making full one's understand of the Law, so the other definitions also fit. It also doesn't make Jesus out to be a false prophet or to be doing away with God's righteousness.

Furthermore, in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplish, both of which refer to end times. While Jesus certainly accomplished much on the cross, he did not accomplish everything because there is still the 2nd coming and everything that Revelation says comes with that. Revelation also speaks about heaven and earth passing away, and last I checked they are still here. Jesus also warned that anyone who relaxes the least of the laws or teaches others to do the same would be called least in the Kingdom of God, while anyone who obeys the Law and teachings others to do the same would be called great in the Kingdom, so there is nothing about this to indicate that he was planning on doing away with the Law.

14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Looking at Galatians 5:14 it does not say what you said it does.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized God's Law as being His instructions for how He wants us to love Him and our neighbor, so love fulfills the Law because that is what it is essentially about how to do,. So when we obey the command to love our neighbor we are fulfilling the entire Law.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law. Jesus knew when He started His ministry that He would die on the cross. Just because He did not fulfill it at the beginning of His ministry is not a reason to say that that was not His mission.

In Matthew, Jesus he came to fulfill the law and then proceeded to fulfill it six times by teaching how to correctly obey it. There again is nothing in Matthew 5 that would indicate that he was speaking about his death and nothing that he said about his death about fulfilling the law, so there is no textual reason to associate the two. His death had absolutely nothing to do with fulfilling the Law or with doing away with God's righteous standard, and there have been countless people who have fulfilled the entire Law.
 
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Doug Melven

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Soyeong

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I just edited my post to add this paragrpah, which you might have missed:

Furthermore, in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplish, both of which refer to end times. While Jesus certainly accomplished much on the cross, he did not accomplish everything because there is still the 2nd coming and everything that Revelation says comes with that. Revelation also speaks about heaven and earth passing away, and last I checked they are still here. Jesus also warned that anyone who relaxes the least of the laws or teaches others to do the same would be called least in the Kingdom of God, while anyone who obeys the Law and teachings others to do the same would be called great in the Kingdom, so there is nothing about this to indicate that he was planning on doing away with the Law.

You just took part of it

  1. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

I agree that there are other definitions, but I made a case for why that one is correct. We should prefer a definition that fits with what he proceeded to do next rather than one that had nothing to do with what he was speaking about and that is in contradiction with the surrounding verses. I also agree that the word is used in regard to God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment, but there is nothing in the prophets about God's righteous standard being done away with.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I got it from here (2c):

Pleroo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

It is the only definition that is specifically in regard to the context of God's Law, it fits with what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next, it fits with how other verses use the word, and it fits with how other Jewish writings use the word, though pleroo can also be understood as filling up or making full one's understand of the Law, so the other definitions also fit. It also doesn't make Jesus out to be a false prophet or to be doing away with God's righteousness.

In Matthew, Jesus he came to fulfill the law and then proceeded to fulfill it six times by teaching how to correctly obey it. There again is nothing in Matthew 5 that would indicate that he was speaking about his death and nothing that he said about his death about fulfilling the law, so there is no textual reason to associate the two. His death had absolutely nothing to do with fulfilling the Law or with doing away with God's righteous standard, and there have been countless people who have fulfilled the entire Law.
According to Isaiah 61:2, His death fulfilled the prophecies of the OT, but then the day of vengeance would follow 40 yrs later in 70ad.
Jesus left out that part in Luke 4

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah, [Luke 4:19
And the day of vengeance of our God, [Luke 21:2/Reve 16:17]

Luke 4:19
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.'
21 and He began by saying, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

John 19:30 When then Jesus had received the vinegar, He said "it hath been finished!" And reclining the head He gives-up the spirit. [Acts 13:29/Reve 1:18

Acts 13:29 and when they did finish all the things written about Him, having taken down from the wood/tree xulou<3586>, they laid Him in a tomb; [Luke 4:19]

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the ages of the ages. And I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

Reve 16:17 and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out a great Voice out of the Sanctuary from the Throne saying: it is finished! [Revelation 21:6]

Reve 22:14 Happy the ones rinsing the robes of them, that it shall be the authority of them on the wood/xulon <3586> of the life,
and to the gates they may be into-coming into the city.
 
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Soyeong

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According to Isaiah 61:2, His death fulfilled the prophecies of the OT, but then the day of vengeance would follow 40 yrs later in 70ad.
Jesus left out that part in Luke 4

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah, [Luke 4:19
And the day of vengeance of our God, [Luke 21:2/Reve 16:17]

Luke 4:19
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.'
21 and He began by saying, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

John 19:30 When then Jesus had received the vinegar, He said "it hath been finished!" And reclining the head He gives-up the spirit. [Acts 13:29/Reve 1:18

Acts 13:29 and when they did finish all the things written about Him, having taken down from the wood/tree xulou<3586>, they laid Him in a tomb; [Luke 4:19]

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the ages of the ages. And I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

Reve 16:17 and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out a great Voice out of the Sanctuary from the Throne saying: it is finished! [Revelation 21:6]

Reve 22:14 Happy the ones rinsing the robes of them, that it shall be the authority of them on the wood/xulon <3586> of the life,
and to the gates they may be into-coming into the city.

I agree that he finished all of the things written about him, but nothing written about him said anything about doing away with God's righteousness. This is what he gave himself to accomplish:

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Note that it does not say that he came to free us from the Law, but to free us from all Lawlessness and furthermore that God's Law is His instructions for how to equip us to do every good work.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I agree that he finished all of the things written about him, but nothing written about him said anything about doing away with God's righteousness. This is what he gave himself to accomplish:

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Note that it does not say that he came to free us from the Law, but to free us from all Lawlessness and furthermore that God's Law is His instructions for how to equip us to do every good work.
I would say He came to save the common Jews from the burden of the Law according to the Religious rulers in Jerusalem who were still under the Law of Moses, the same lawless ones who had our Lord Jesus crucified, as prophecied.
Look at John 14:30 and John 18:3

John 14:30 "Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming, the ruler/chief of this world, and in Me not he is having anything. [John 18:3

John 18:3 Judas, therefore, having taken the band and officers out of the chief-priests and Pharisees, doth-Come thither with torches and lamps, and weapons;[John 19:11]

Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the court/[#833] of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, [Reve 11:2]
Jhn 19:11
Jesus answered him, "Thou wouldest have no power against Me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered Me unto thee hath greater sin.

John 12:31 "Now the judging is of this world.
Now the Chief/Ruler of this world shall be being cast out. [Reve 11:2]

Reve 11:2
2 and, the Court/Palace[Court of High Priest/Altar of Burnt Offerings?][ #833] the one outside of the Sanctuary, be thou casting out! [#1544 ekbale] out-side, and thou should not be measuring it, that it was given unto the nations/gentiles....
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I totally agree on this one point! I apologize for using the word "abolish". I got this list from a website and did not see the word abolish in there. I edited. Thank you for your gracious reply, pointing out the error.

I do however, agree with every Scripture posted which shows that we, IF we are true born again Believers in Yeshua as G-d, are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses, we are under His NEW Covenant.
I find Galatians 4 quite revealing.
While studying the greek on it, I made a rather profound find.
The same exact form of the greek word for "casting out" is used in only 2 verses,
Gal 4:30 and Revelation 11:2, showing that Revelation is "Covenantle"!

Galatian 4:
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the Law, do you not understand what the Law says?
24 These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants.
One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar.
25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
30 But what sayeth the Scripture: 'be Casting-Out/ekbale <1544> (5628) the maid-servant and the son of her, for not no shall be tenanting/inheriting the son of the maid-servant with the son of the free one
.............

Reve 11:2 and the court outside of the sanctuary, be Casting-Out/ekbale <1544> (5628)! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring her, that she was given to the nations, and the city/ the holy they shall be trampling forty and two months.
 
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Doug Melven

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Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplish
Compare with what Jesus said. Matt 5:17-18
5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, once He did that it could pass away as spoken of by Paul in 2 Cor 3:11.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
 
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Soyeong

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Compare with what Jesus said. Matt 5:17-18
5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, once He did that it could pass away as spoken of by Paul in 2 Cor 3:11.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

In 2 Corinthians 3:11, Paul was speaking about the covenant coming to an end, not God's righteousness or the way to act in accordance with His righteousness. As it stands, heaven and earth have not passed away and all is not accomplished, so neither of those conditions have been met, both of which refer to end times. This also needs to be understood in light of 2 Peter 3:15-17, where it says that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of Lawlessness. So this makes it very clear that anyone who has taken his words as teaching against obeying what God has commanded has misunderstood him.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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In 2 Corinthians 3:11, Paul was speaking about the covenant coming to an end, not God's righteousness or the way to act in accordance with His righteousness.
As it stands, heaven and earth have not passed away and all is not accomplished, so neither of those conditions have been met, both of which refer to end times. ...............
What does it mean by "shaking the heaven/s"

Ezekiel 38:19 "And in My jealously, in fire of rage of Me I speak, if not in that day, shall become a great earthquake on ground of Israel"
[Revelation 16:18]

Haggai 2:6 That thus He says, YHWH of Hosts: Yet one little and I am quaking/07493 ra`ash the heavens and the land, and the sea, and the dry,........
[Ezekiel 38:19/Revelation 16:18]

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice the land shakes then, now yet He has promised saying 'still once I shall be quaking/seiw <4579> (5719) not only the Land but also the Heaven. [Haggai 2:6]

Reve 16:18 and became lightnings and thunders and voices/sounds and a great earthquake/seismoV <4578> became, such-as not became since the men became upon the land, such proportion an earthquake/seismoV <4578> thus great. [Haggai 2:6/Ezekiel 38:19]
 
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Soyeong

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I would say He came to save the common Jews from the burden of the Law according to the Religious rulers in Jerusalem who were still under the Law of Moses, the same lawless ones who had our Lord Jesus crucified, as prophecied.
Look at John 14:30 and John 18:3

John 14:30 "Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming, the ruler/chief of this world, and in Me not he is having anything. [John 18:3

John 18:3 Judas, therefore, having taken the band and officers out of the chief-priests and Pharisees, doth-Come thither with torches and lamps, and weapons;[John 19:11]

Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the court/[#833] of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, [Reve 11:2]
Jhn 19:11
Jesus answered him, "Thou wouldest have no power against Me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered Me unto thee hath greater sin.

John 12:31 "Now the judging is of this world.
Now the Chief/Ruler of this world shall be being cast out. [Reve 11:2]

Reve 11:2
2 and, the Court/Palace[Court of High Priest/Altar of Burnt Offerings?][ #833] the one outside of the Sanctuary, be thou casting out! [#1544 ekbale] out-side, and thou should not be measuring it, that it was given unto the nations/gentiles....

God said that what He commanded was for His followers own good to teach us how to walk in His ways (Deuteronomy 6:24, Deuteronomy 10:12-13). I believe Him, do you?

Do you also believe that the Psalms are Scripture, that all Scripture is true, and that David expressed a correct understanding of God's Law? If so, then I see no grounds to consider God's Law to be a burden that we needed to be saved from. David said many times that he delighted in obeying God's Law, that he loved it, that he meditated on his day and night, that those who obey it will be blessed, that he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey it, etc., Paul also said that he delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:22), and God wants us to delight in His Sabbath (Isaiah 58:13), so delight is the correct response to God's Law, and that is completely incompatible with the view that God's Law is a burden that he needed to save us from. God could have just saved the trouble of sending His Son by not giving the Law in the first place. However, the Bible does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness (Titus 2:14). We do not need to be saved from a holy, righteous, and good Law, but rather we needed to be saved from sin, which is the transgression of the Law so that we can be free to obey it.

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so it is important to understand that he criticized the Pharisees for not follow God's Law and for teaching their own traditions in place of it. This straightforwardly means that the reason why the Pharisees were considered to be Lawless was because they were not obey it.
 
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Soyeong

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What does it mean by "shaking the heaven/s"

Ezekiel 38:19 "And in My jealously, in fire of rage of Me I speak, if not in that day, shall become a great earthquake on ground of Israel"
[Revelation 16:18]

Haggai 2:6 That thus He says, YHWH of Hosts: Yet one little and I am quaking/07493 ra`ash the heavens and the land, and the sea, and the dry,........
[Ezekiel 38:19/Revelation 16:18]

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice the land shakes then, now yet He has promised saying 'still once I shall be quaking/seiw <4579> (5719) not only the Land but also the Heaven. [Haggai 2:6]

Reve 16:18 and became lightnings and thunders and voices/sounds and a great earthquake/seismoV <4578> became, such-as not became since the men became upon the land, such proportion an earthquake/seismoV <4578> thus great. [Haggai 2:6/Ezekiel 38:19]

Yes, Revelation speaks about there being a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1) that will come after a great earthquake. So again, this is speak about end times, not about something that has already happened.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yes, Revelation speaks about there being a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1) that will come after a great earthquake.
So again, this is speak about end times, not about something that has already happened.
ls not 2 Pe 3:12 speaking of the same event as Revelation 16:14?
It appears the heavens are "dissolved" before the 1000 yr period. Interesting

2Pe 3:12
looking for and hastening the coming of the Day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Reve 16:14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs which is going-out on the kings of the land, and the being-homed, whole, to-be-together-assembling them into the battle that the Great Day of the God, the Almighty. [Zephaniah 1/Ezekiel 38/39]
16 And he together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn [Reve 20:8]

Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea. [Reve 16:14]
 
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Soyeong

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ls not 2 Pe 3:12 speaking of the same event as Revelation 16:14?
It appears the heavens are "dissolved" before the 1000 yr period. Interesting

2Pe 3:12
looking for and hastening the coming of the Day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Reve 16:14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs which is going-out on the kings of the land, and the being-homed, whole, to-be-together-assembling them into the battle that the Great Day of the God, the Almighty. [Zephaniah 1/Ezekiel 38/39]
16 And he together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn [Reve 20:8]

Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea. [Reve 16:14]

In Isaiah 11:8, it speaks about a time when children will play near a cobra's den and put their hand in a viper's nest, so it is speaking about a time when heaven and earth are restored to the conditions that they were prior to the Fall.
 
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lee11

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Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase [the awareness] of sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy.

(Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has fulfilled and completed the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

Hi

I think depending on a person’s denomination and its doctrine.

People can become confused about its aim purpose and the relationship between them.

The OT means the first testimony records agreement or legally bidding documents between God and man.

The OT covers a range of examples and content.

The OT is the foundation and history of Gods relationship with his people and the outcomes.

The OT promised a better agreement and a better relationship between God and his people.

The OT or the first agreement had to evolve because it could not completely achieve all the objectives that God needed it to achieve.

The NT is the amendment continuation and developed document to help complete the objectives of the OT through the NT transition.


The NT cannot exist without the OT, because the OT is the foundation for the NT, and the OT cannot continue without the NT because the NT is the completion of the OT.

They both coexist to complement each other.

However the OT guidelines and practices have evolved through the NT and many promises fulfilled to help us have a better and more personal relationship with God.

The OT or first agreement and guidelines were relevant to help meet people’s needs and achieve Gods objectives at that point in time and the NT is suitable and relevant to help meet people’s needs and achieve Gods objectives in our life time.

I think the confusion comes when people try and LIVE under the OT guidelines and apply the conditions of the OT practices to their current life styles, not realising that the OT guidelines and practices were designed specifically for the Israelite culture customs and traditions.

Where the NT was designed for the completion and transition from the Israelite culture to embrace all current and future cultures and believers.

The OT is a record, and history of Judaism which eventually evolved into Christianity.

We cannot practice OT Judaism through Christianity, but we can demonstrate NT principals through our personal relationships with Jesus.

It is up to each one of us to gain to a better understanding about the relationship between the OT and NT agreements and to live in harmony with both of them.

Peace.
 
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Soyeong

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Hi

I think depending on a person’s denomination and its doctrine.

People can become confused about its aim purpose and the relationship between them.

The OT means the first testimony records agreement or legally bidding documents between God and man.

The OT covers a range of examples and content.

The OT is the foundation and history of Gods relationship with his people and the outcomes.

The OT promised a better agreement and a better relationship between God and his people.

The OT or the first agreement had to evolve because it could not completely achieve all the objectives that God needed it to achieve.

The NT is the amendment continuation and developed document to help complete the objectives of the OT through the NT transition.


The NT cannot exist without the OT, because the OT is the foundation for the NT, and the OT cannot continue without the NT because the NT is the completion of the OT.

They both coexist to complement each other.

However the OT guidelines and practices have been updated through the NT and many promises fulfilled to help us have a better and more personal relationship with God.

The OT or first agreement and guidelines were relevant to help meet people’s needs and achieve Gods objectives at that point in time and the NT is suitable and relevant to help meet people’s needs and achieve Gods objectives in our life time.

I think the confusion comes when people try and LIVE under the OT guidelines and apply the conditions of the OT practices to their current life styles, not realising that the OT guidelines and practices were design specifically for the Israelite culture customs and traditions.

Where the NT was designed for the completion and transition from the Israelite culture to embrace all current and future cultures and believers.

The OT is a record, and history of Judaism which eventually evolved into Christianity.

We cannot practice OT Judaism through Christianity, but we can demonstrate NT principals through our personal relationships with Jesus.

It is up to each one of us to gain to a better understanding about the relationship between the OT and NT agreements and to live in harmony with both of them.

Peace.

Hello,

I think all of these verse make it explicitly clearly that the Mosaic Covenant and Law was intended to teach people how to walk in God's ways: Joshua 22:5, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Psalms 25:4-10, Psalms 103:1-8, Psalms 119:1-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 42:24, and Malachi 2:4-9.

Whereas, these verses make it implicitly clear those commands teach us to walk in His ways: Deuteronomy 5:32-33, Deuteronomy 8:6, Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Deuteronomy 19:9, Deuteronomy 26:16-19, Deuteronomy 28:9, Deuteronomy 30:15-16, 1 Kings 3:14, 1 Kings 8:57-58, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:38, Judges 2:16-23 and Jeremiah 6:16-19.

So you are saying that the Law in the OT are particular to Israelite lifestyle, culture, customs, and traditions and the major problem I have with that idea is that it is not found anywhere in the in Bible, whereas the Bible makes it abundantly clear that the Law is particular to God. In other words, the Law wasn't God's instructions for how to act like Israelites, but rather it was God's instructions to His followers for how walk in His ways in accordance with His attributes. For example, God's righteousness is eternal and unchanging, so it can't be updated, and therefore neither can the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness, so God's righteousness is not dependent on any particular covenant, and as part of the NT we are still told to practice righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). While the Bible says that the New Covenant has a superior mediator and is built on better promises, it does not say that it has superior laws because that would require following a superior God with superior righteousness.

The role that God had for Israel was to be a light to the other nations, to teach them about God and how to walk in His ways in accordance with His Law (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8), and the reason why the Gospel always went to the Jew first and then to the Gentile was so that they could fulfill this role. So the Bible is not about embracing other cultures, and God often got angry when His followers did that, but rather it about drawing people from other cultures and teaching them to walk in God's ways.
 
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lee11

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Hello,

I think all of these verse make it explicitly clearly that the Mosaic Covenant and Law was intended to teach people how to walk in God's ways: Joshua 22:5, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Psalms 25:4-10, Psalms 103:1-8, Psalms 119:1-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 42:24, and Malachi 2:4-9.

Whereas, these verses make it implicitly clear those commands teach us to walk in His ways: Deuteronomy 5:32-33, Deuteronomy 8:6, Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Deuteronomy 19:9, Deuteronomy 26:16-19, Deuteronomy 28:9, Deuteronomy 30:15-16, 1 Kings 3:14, 1 Kings 8:57-58, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:38, Judges 2:16-23 and Jeremiah 6:16-19.

So you are saying that the Law in the OT are particular to Israelite lifestyle, culture, customs, and traditions and the major problem I have with that idea is that it is not found anywhere in the in Bible, whereas the Bible makes it abundantly clear that the Law is particular to God. In other words, the Law wasn't God's instructions for how to act like Israelites, but rather it was God's instructions to His followers for how walk in His ways in accordance with His attributes. For example, God's righteousness is eternal and unchanging, so it can't be updated, and therefore neither can the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness, so God's righteousness is not dependent on any particular covenant, and as part of the NT we are still told to practice righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). While the Bible says that the New Covenant has a superior mediator and is built on better promises, it does not say that it has superior laws because that would require following a superior God with superior righteousness.

The role that God had for Israel was to be a light to the other nations, to teach them about God and how to walk in His ways in accordance with His Law (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8), and the reason why the Gospel always went to the Jew first and then to the Gentile was so that they could fulfill this role. So the Bible is not about embracing other cultures, and God often got angry when His followers did that, but rather it about drawing people from other cultures and teaching them to walk in God's ways.

hi

there are over 20,000 different denominations that come under the umbrella of Christianity all with different POVs.

all who love and desire to serve God.

all who believe they interpret the same scriptures clearly.

and yet are separated by there doctrines.

all we can do is choose a fellowship and use that doctrine to love the Lord our God with all our heart soul mind and strength and love our neighbours as our selves.

if one believes this and another believes that.

so be it.

God is not mocked.

we all reap what we sow.

Peace
 
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