redleghunter

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Since your post is about the age of the earth, most of your ten points become worthless to a large degree since the things in the ten points all happened in the six creative days.

The Bible puts the age of the earth outside those days with a "1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. " Thus the point here as to the earth's age is about when this beginning was, and not about the six creative days at all.

In Micah we have another reference to a beginning, the point when our Lord came to be. Since this beginning is seen to be from "the beginning, even from eternity" it is not a short 6 to 10 thousand years.
Quoting my own research:
(French Louis Segond)
Michah 5:2 . . . Et dont l'origine remonte aux temps anciens, Aux jours de l'éternité.
English translation: whose origin goes back to ancient times, to the days of eternity.
(AB) . . . His goings forth were from the beginning, even from eternity.

And, Psalms 93:2: Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting. (ASV)
Psalm 11:4 Yahweh, is in his holy temple As for Yahweh, in the heavens, is his throne, His eyes, behold—His eyelashes test the sons of men. (Rotherham)​
Surely, the heavens being the throne of God as we are told, we see that the beginning mentioned in Micah is said to be “even from eternity,” not a mere 6,000 years. When in Genesis we are told, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” this has to be in harmony with the scriptures quoted here. We may understand that the earth is very old since it is included in these ‘heavens.’ That the earth may not be as old as other parts of the universe is a given with what we know from scientific studies, and from the continual process of creation we witness in the universe. Connecting the dots from 93:2 and 11:4, God’s throne, the heavens, are from of old, not a mere six days.

The logical conclusion of this permits extreme age for our earth and solar system. There need not be a disagreement between the Bible and whatever scientists' claim may be presently. However, we do not need to accept the claims of science either. Their claims cannot be verified and contain much to cause scepticism. In fact, the Bible's way of referring to extreme age is aesthetically preferable to what scientists use today, since any normal human, educated or not, may easily relate to it; after all, the claims of science tend to change from decade to decade, and people who live some 75 years cannot easily relate to ages of billions, or even millions, of years.​
If this then is 4.5 billion years or something a lot less has not been revealed to us. We can then accept the scientific statement or just say that the age is very ancient but unknown.

Here is my own research on the six creative days:

The six creative days, and the seventh - God's day of rest.
Not 24-hour days!

Let the Bible reader who takes the six creative days literally meditate on the following. Much work was done on the sixth day before God created Adam and Eve. Naturally, if this was about was God can do, there is no limit so that if he wanted to use six normal 24 hour days to complete the job, He would be able to do so. However, while remembering that, take a serious look at what God made Adam, a simple man, do on the sixth creative day.

Only the main points are being highlighted! After creating Adam, God brings the various species of animals to Adam so as to have him name them; next, we find that because Adam is solitary, God creates Eve and brings her to him.

Gen 2:19-22, And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name. 20 And Adam called all the beasts by their names, and all the fowls of the air, and all the cattle of the field:

but for Adam there was not found a helper like himself. . . . a woman: and brought her to Adam. (DRC)

Adam’s work on the sixth day

Adam was being asked to observe and remain with each kind of animal long enough to become familiar with that kind's behaviour and name it according to that assessment. Consider carefully how long each animal kind had to be observed to know what name would fit! Taking the great number of animals he had to name, it is clear that the time required is not 24 hours. Even 24 hours may not be enough to name one single kind of animal !

Only when that work was finished, a deep sleep is induced upon Adam while God creates Eve.


Deep (long) sleep

By this reference, we can see that the sleep induced was not nocturnal, but perhaps of an extended period that lasted until the woman had been created and her organism became operational. Adam’s sleep could have lasted days.

Conclusion

If you have any inkling as to what can be done in a 24 hour day, you instantly must acknowledge that the Bible is talking about a creative day in the sense that is commonly used about time periods. Check any dictionary for this usage if you don't know how day may be applied to longer periods of time.

There is no way that the sixth day of 24 hours could include all that God did and all that Adam was supposed to do, including his deep sleep! How long did such a deep sleep last? Two minutes?! That is not what deep sleep means. Also, how much time is needed to name each of the animals God brought him?

Let logic and common sense rule here! Here the question is not what God can do - for to him nothing is impossible. The question is what is indicated, how long would it take Adam to accomplish the work God gave him! An unbiased examination gives clear indication that we are not speaking about 24 hour days of creation.

God’s rest period, the seventh day

Another affirmation that the seven days are of immense unknown length, not 24 hour days, exists! How do we know? In Genesis 1:27-32, Adam was created whereafter the end of the sixth creative day was reached. Next, we are told that the seventh creative day started and with it God's rest period!

Genesis 1:27,31, And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. . . . 31 And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day. (2:1-3) So the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the furniture of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. 3And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (DRC)

Hebrews 4:1-6 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you might seem to have failed of it . 2 For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also; but the word of the report did not profit *them*, not being mixed with faith in those who heard. 3For we enter into the rest who have believed; as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest; although the works had been completed from the foundation of the world. 4For he has said somewhere of the seventh day thus, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works: 5and in this again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remains that some enter into it, and those who first received the glad tidings did not enter in on account of not hearkening to the word. (Darby)

The scriptural evidence from Hebrews is that the seventh day remains yet to be completed and in fact the implication is that the thousand year reign of Christ is to be part of it since the promised REST the Christians are expecting to enter into pertains to the fulfillment of their hope.

It is fairly well established by several denominations that Adam and Eve were created about, or a little more than, 6,000 years ago. Once the thousand year reign of Christ is added to that number by necessity because of Paul's statement in Hebrews, the unavoidable conclusion about how long each day must be at a minimum is in. From this scriptural proof, it becomes clear that the seventh day is at least 7,000 years long. Since the Bible nowhere states the seventh day will conclude when Christ's thousand year reign is complete, there is then no way for us to claim that this seventh day cannot be millions of years long.

For these reasons, it is evident that each creative day's length cannot be defined with any certainty at all. All we can say with certainty about the length of each creative day is – that it is unknown, and, that it is at least 7,000 years long. More can be said about how science may have some way of limiting the length of this day. Even Biblically speaking, there are certain things in Genesis chapter one that give us some controlling factors. But the above is enough for all to make their own conclusions given a little help from my studies.

If we were able to establish when Gen 1: 9 and 10 happened, we could establish how long God’s creative days were each. But, this seems impossible. Personally I do not believe in the claims of science since there is not enough sediment in the seas to indicate a really long, as in billion of years, long time.

So, it is seen that each Terra-forming day is at least 7,000 years long at a minimum. However, my personal opinion which doesn't have much scriptural basis is that each day s 42,000 years long.

------------------------------
This permits at 7000/day an age now to the beginning of day one - 48,000 years. Since we are ca 6000 years into day seven.

If using my 42,000 years, we would have 252000 +6000 = 258,000 years unverified.
Was this timeline understood as you note above to the Israelites in Exodus 20:11?

They seem to understand such in solar days.
 
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mindlight

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But we do know that there are comets of different ages - therefore something must be making new comets. From a YEC perspective, all comets should be the same age, so I'd say that this is a far more important thing to solve than the source of the comets.

How would you date a comet? You do not know how big the original thing was. You may calculate from its loss rate how long it will be around but how could you know how old it was?
 
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mindlight

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They are selling us a bill of goods and the real money is on the creation of life.

I agree this is the crucial debate - are we monkeys or men - accidents or miracles? But if the earth is young then this argument is a slam dunk for creationists as the timescales simply do not exist for abiogenesis and macroevolution to occur. If the earth is old they still lack empirical proofs. Either way we are on the same page when it comes to the creation of life.
 
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mindlight

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Ummm... where did I ever state that I believed in macro-evolution?

If you and I both believe God is the supreme authority, the creator of all, and He sacrificed His only begotten Son so that a gentile like myself could see the kingdom of heaven, how am I an atheist or pagan?

I do agree that many of my colleges and professors in the science community are anti-christian. I do also contend that your argument for YEC is exactly why. The science and the Bible don't agree from a YEC perspective. However if you apply logic and science to the book of Genesis they do agree if you can get past the possibility that "days" are not literal... I have more than demonstrated this with the Bible. Don't be angry with me for how Genesis is written. I am just pointing out that logically the Bible does account in the book of Genesis so much more than the heaven and the Earth. The book of Genesis accounts for the creation of EVERYTHING! The YEC view is limited in this regard! As stated many times the Bible and all of its books must be accurate for all time! If science should prove that water as described in Genesis is older than the Earth does that not demonstrate proof of God? Again how is this pagan or anti-christian?

As also described many churches that hold conservative views also held the the Earth was the center of the Universe, again how did that turn out for the church? If you are unwilling to examine that which God has given us to become wise through His word, I know not how to assist you. Approaching the subject from a new English translation Bible and according it as literal, has a bunch of problems that should be self evident.

I also never stated there were no miracles. I did state that the most profound miracles are those of Gods timing. The miracles of Jesus are all together different miracles and that is a different discussion, which I will not entertain here. What does it say in the Bible at the end of Creation? God rested from all the work which he performed (paraphrased), does it say except for this or this?

I leave you with my favorite verse in the Bible: John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Warm Regards, GBTG

I apologise if you think that I implied that you personally were an atheistic pagan. I do believe however that an abiogenetic, macroevolutionary view is deeply antichristian and indeed a new kind of paganism. However if the universe is something God created billions of years ago or just 6000 years ago does not really matter in terms of affirming any pagan viewpoint and does not diminish the God we believe in either way. For me it is mainly about what the bible says and about a dishonesty and closed mindedness in the scientific world when considering the possibility of a young universe. There are also, as I hope this thread has shown, some good scientific reasons to believe that we might be being sold a lie here.
 
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Radagast

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a dishonesty and closed mindedness in the scientific world

Speaking as a scientist, thanks very much! :sigh:

There are also, as I hope this thread has shown, some good scientific reasons to believe

There might perhaps be good reasons, but there have been none in this thread.
 
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mindlight

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Speaking as a scientist, thanks very much! :sigh:

There might perhaps be good reasons, but there have been none in this thread.

Do not take personally what was a general comment on the state of secular mainstream science in regard to alternatives to Old earth evolutionism. I was not implying that you personally were dishonest though I might suggest that you are not there yet.

Lazarus bacterium?
 
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Zoii

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Not debating but curious. What would you consider unbiased with regards to this subject?

I'm sure both YEC and old earth creationists and even theistic evolutionary adherents would all agree Creation was a supernatural "event" which makes us all biased.

The unbiased would most likely be one who believes all there is of evidence is attributed to natural causes. Meaning a naturalistic or material view denying an uncreated Creator.

Or am I being too biased in approaching this. :)
Thats a really good question - the best question here yet :)

Ok so lets say you were going to test something like...... ingesting a litre of water from Lake XYZ a day makes you more intelligent. Now your mum owns a resort on Lake XYZ and even though your an honest person, you may unconsciously influence your own results here so....

Samples from lake XYZ are labelled with a number and we label distilled water samples with a number

Subjects are given a water sample but neither the person administering the sample or the subject knows whether they are getting Lake XYZ or distilled water. We do an IQ test on both cohorts and wow..... XYZ lake's cohort is massively more higher performing then distilled water. Your mum is happy and you produced a result that was not biased.

Now when you write your result up you still have to declare your conflict of influence, your personal biases and how you excluded them.


Thats one example of how to produce something factual and excluding bias.
 
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Grandliseur

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Was this timeline understood as you note above to the Israelites in Exodus 20:11?

They seem to understand such in solar days.
You and everybody else must study Sola Scriptura and within their own logic and rationale determine what is true and what is false.
We have been given the Inspired NT by God which the Jews in their disbelief reject. In this Paul teaches us about the seventh day.

So, combining the work Adam was asked to do, as you must have seen and considered in one of my previous post, and combining this with Paul, my Biblical logic permits the Terra-forming days to be at a minimum 7,000 years. If you accept this is quite up to you. I am Lord over nobody's faith except my own. I have no agenda either except to go by the Bible, but this I do religiously with a harmonious interpretation. Hope to remain friendly with all Christians despite their having different opinions than I. :):)
 
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Goatee

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Really? What is NOT supported is an old earth. The Bible is absolutely clear about a young earth. Are you sure we're talking about the same book?

In Mark 10:6, Jesus stated: “From the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.” How long has humankind been on this Earth? Jesus said “from the beginning of the creation.” Genesis 1:26-31 explains that God chose the sixth day of the Creation week to form mankind from the dust of the ground. Were humans a part of that six-day beginning? Indeed they were. But what does it matter if mankind was formed on day six? Exodus 20:11 records: “For in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day….” Quite simply, that piece of information, combined with the information from Genesis 1 and Mark 10:6, informs us the Earth is exactly five days older than humanity! source

So Jesus says that from the beginning of creation God made man and woman. As a Catholic, you believe that Jesus is the son of God; and that Jesus; being eternal; was witness to the creation. Why, then, do you misrepresent what Jesus said? He did not say that man evolved. He did not correct the Genesis story of sin and death coming into the world through the sin of Adam. He also confirmed the great flood and mentioned Noah by name in Luke 17:27.

The age of the earth revealed in the Bible through the generations of people listed. It shows:
Present to Jesus 2,000 years
Jesus to Abraham 2,000 years (55 generations)
Abraham to Adam 2,000 years (20 generations)

Evolution is contrary to the word of God and therefore we know it is false. it is also contrary to science.
The origination of matter is impossible.
The origination of life is impossible.
The conversion of life from plant to animal is impossible.
The only speciation that has ever been observed is conservative in nature. Deleterious characteristics are extinguished. Beneficial characteristics are accented.

This occurred after the global flood. Christ confirmed the flood, so we know it happened. The truth is not in those who deny what Christ affirmed.

Lol. You interpreting scripture with a modern eye and turning it to suit your own beliefs!

People like you take things they want literally from the Bible and then, at other times don't take the literal view if it goes against what you believe! Lol
 
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DarkSoul999

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Yet, he totally defeats PhD's and other educated men in formal debates and universities around the USA..

So, feel sorry for him all you want... unless you think that your intellectual abilities are immune to his wisdom and knowledge of the facts that he used to dummy up other supposed learned men of science.

uhhhh care to explain how he is "defeating" them?

You keep saying this over and over again but you never state your case....are you afraid? There is nothing to be afraid of. Just state your case.
 
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DarkSoul999

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Well, the bible is my foundation for truth.. Let God be true and every man a liar" is my motto.

The bible, as read from Genesis 1:1 describes God creating the universe and lays it out with no reason for any delay in time from beginning to end, with detailed and pointed attention to "there was evening, there was morning, the first day etc.

There is no reason to believe that God was not capable of doing such a feat. There is no indication, in the scripture that He did it any differently. There are numerous places where the six day creation story is reinforced by other writers and by Christ Himself.

Therefore, there is no way I am going to let some "theoretical" blathering of some people in white coats who spout the "wisdom" of men....to contradict the simple and totally acceptable and possible truth of God Created the heavens and the earth and that He did it as He said... in six literal days.

As for all these men and women with their letters after their names and their swollen heads and puffed up proud arrogant chests of how much they know and how intelligent they are.. how wise they are compared to those that have not been "educated".... I give you the words of or Lord....

Romans 1:22King James Version (KJV)

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

If you do not read ancient Hebrew then you are not reading Genesis. That book was written around 1400 BC and may be even older than that. I'm pretty sure they DID NOT SPEAK ENGLISH!!!
 
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DarkSoul999

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Ummm... where did I ever state that I believed in macro-evolution?

If you and I both believe God is the supreme authority, the creator of all, and He sacrificed His only begotten Son so that a gentile like myself could see the kingdom of heaven, how am I an atheist or pagan?

I do agree that many of my colleges and professors in the science community are anti-christian. I do also contend that your argument for YEC is exactly why. The science and the Bible don't agree from a YEC perspective. However if you apply logic and science to the book of Genesis they do agree if you can get past the possibility that "days" are not literal... I have more than demonstrated this with the Bible. Don't be angry with me for how Genesis is written. I am just pointing out that logically the Bible does account in the book of Genesis so much more than the heaven and the Earth. The book of Genesis accounts for the creation of EVERYTHING! The YEC view is limited in this regard! As stated many times the Bible and all of its books must be accurate for all time! If science should prove that water as described in Genesis is older than the Earth does that not demonstrate proof of God? Again how is this pagan or anti-christian?

As also described many churches that hold conservative views also held the the Earth was the center of the Universe, again how did that turn out for the church? If you are unwilling to examine that which God has given us to become wise through His word, I know not how to assist you. Approaching the subject from a new English translation Bible and according it as literal, has a bunch of problems that should be self evident.

I also never stated there were no miracles. I did state that the most profound miracles are those of Gods timing. The miracles of Jesus are all together different miracles and that is a different discussion, which I will not entertain here. What does it say in the Bible at the end of Creation? God rested from all the work which he performed (paraphrased), does it say except for this or this?

I leave you with my favorite verse in the Bible: John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Warm Regards, GBTG

Genesis gets an amazing amount correct about the formation of the early Earth and even the universe! Yes water is older than the Earth. It is astonishing how the ancients managed to "guess" so accurately! How could they possibly know that water exists beyond the world?! The concept of space travel wasn't even imagined in storytelling at the time!

Yet here we are arguing with really unintelligent Christians who seem to think that Genesis uses the English word for day. Who needs anti-theists when they do such a stellar job looking silly?! -__-
 
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DarkSoul999

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It is subject to contradiction and Exodus 20:11 does exactly that.

That isn't all we know about it. We know that it was created sometime within the 6 days of creation. Exodus 20:11 says so.

It could not have happened billions of years "earlier" than creation week. It happened within creation week.

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them....." Exodus 20:11

You keep trying to skate out of admitting that you have been wrong by simply saying that it doesn't matter.

If it doesn't matter, why not just agree to what the scriptures say and stop trying to hold one foot in the world's thinking and one in the thinking of the scriptures?

First, you are wrong. The word "Yom" does not mean a literal day. Second, why would God make the universe so confusing and demand blind belief for something that has zero evidence? That would be proof that he only loves a very specific breed of human and wants to give zero chance to everyone else. It would prove that Christ came to save the lazy and the anti-intellectual and damn everyone else. We would be better off using drugs to damage our brains because the brain will damn you for eternity.

So yea I'm going to fight YEC garbage tooth and nail because the entire scripture is at risk if YEC is the true interpretation.
 
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KWCrazy

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Lol. You interpreting scripture with a modern eye and turning it to suit your own beliefs!
I believe what I did was quote Scripture. It's how Jesus defeated the liar Satan when he was trying to tempt Him. "It is written." What is written in the Scriptures is the inspired word of God.

In 2nd Timothy we read about the last days, that men will be "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." In verses 16 and 17 we learn, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."


If Scripture is God breathed, by what standard should we, as Christians, subjugate it to the claims of those who study the creation but not the Creator? It's easy to fabricate claims of others twisting Scriptures, but when it is quoted chapter and verse in context, who is doing the twisting?

We Christians must stand strong against the lies of the world. We know that it was God, not shepherds, who said He created the world in six days. If God said it, then it happened.
 
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Goatee

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I believe what I did was quote Scripture. It's how Jesus defeated the liar Satan when he was trying to tempt Him. "It is written." What is written in the Scriptures is the inspired word of God.

In 2nd Timothy we read about the last days, that men will be "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." In verses 16 and 17 we learn, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."


If Scripture is God breathed, by what standard should we, as Christians, subjugate it to the claims of those who study the creation but not the Creator? It's easy to fabricate claims of others twisting Scriptures, but when it is quoted chapter and verse in context, who is doing the twisting?

We Christians must stand strong against the lies of the world. We know that it was God, not shepherds, who said He created the world in six days. If God said it, then it happened.

How long is 6 days to God?
 
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KWCrazy

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Does this scripture refer to Adam or Eve?
Both. Mankind.
So Adam was made after the 6th “day” of creation according to the Bible.
No, Adam was made on day six. Describing an event does not change the date of the event.
Who is Cain afraid of, siblings, parents? Who is the everyone?
Those who would come. People lived long lifespans then. How many children could you sire in 500 productive years? And their children? And theirs? Also, the Bible doesn't say that Adam was the only man created, only the first. Noah would come from his line and all others, if they existed, would perish, so there would be no need to mention them. They would have been part of a condemned world.

I'll tell you what, though. God knows the answers to these questions. Why don't you ask Him? My opinion is just that. The Lord knows the truth.
 
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Goatee

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Both. Mankind.

No, Adam was made on day six. Describing an event does not change the date of the event.

Those who would come. People lived long lifespans then. How many children could you sire in 500 productive years? And their children? And theirs? Also, the Bible doesn't say that Adam was the only man created, only the first. Noah would come from his line and all others, if they existed, would perish, so there would be no need to mention them. They would have been part of a condemned world.

I'll tell you what, though. God knows the answers to these questions. Why don't you ask Him? My opinion is just that. The Lord knows the truth.

Exactly, just 'your' opinion. Not fact
 
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