How to be Saved Without Christ

rrobsr said:

Interesting comment. I'm not saying you are wrong, but how do you explain:

Rom 7:14-25,

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

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Here are 8 reasons I came up with in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. (Note: Verse 25 is Paul transitioning back in speaking as a Christian again).

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:


What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

rrobsr said:

What is the gift of holy spirit we all receive at the new birth if not the spirit Adam had and then lost?

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Adam never lost his spirit when he sinned. As I stated before, his spirit became cut off from God. Whether saint or atheist, everybody on earth has a human spirit otherwise he would be dead.
Again as I said before, fallen angels, despite being dead, are still independent spirit beings, but cut off from God.
Likewise fallen humanity, we are also independent spirit beings, but contained in a physical body.
In both cases, the human spirit, angelic spirit, and demonic spirits, are separate and different to the Holy Spirit.

When someone dies, people often say, "He has given up the ghost", because that's what happens. His human spirit departs the body and the body is dead.

James2v26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Although the context refers to another issue, James is stating a fact of life.
This is proved in many other places of scripture.

Genesis25v8Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

Genesis25v17And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Genesis35v29And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

The following is the entire opposite, a child's human spirit returns and she comes back to life.
Luke8v54 But Jesus took her by the hand and called out, “Child, get up!” 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she got up. And He directed that she be given something to eat.

And finally, Jesus gives up the ghost.
John19v30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

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Lets look at 3 other ways that God's Word allows for the possibility of ultimate salvation for those who do not formally profess faith in Christ in this life:

(1) In Romans Paul addresses the question of the redemptive possibilities for those who have not been exposed to the Law or the Bible and therefore have never heard the Gospel: "When Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively what the Law requires,...they show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness (2:14-15)." These pagans can be saved simply by "patiently doing good" and by seeking "for glory, honor, and immortality:" "To those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality He will give eternal life (2:7)." Why? Because "sin is not imputed where there is no Law (5:13)." Notice carefully that these pagans "seek for glory, honor, and immortality," but do not know enough to seek for salvation by grace through faith in Christ's finished atonement. Thus, Paul can say this about those who have never heard the Gospel: "God has overlooked the times of human ignorance (Acts 17:30)." These are now required to repent when and only when they hear and grasp the Gospel.

(2) But even the wicked dead in Hades can receive a 2nd chance to get saved:
"He (Christ) or this went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey (1 Peter 3:19-20)."
The phrase "a proclamation to the spirits is prison" is picked up in 4:6 by the phrase, ""the Gospel was proclaimed even to the dead" and it is now made clear that they are allowed to respond to the Gospel and be saved (= "live in the spirit"):

"For this reason, the Gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh, as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does (4:6)."

(3) Proxy baptism for the unsaved dead can be part of the process by which God becomes "everything to everyone" and by which they too can ultimately be saved:

...so that God may be everything to everyone (or: all in all"). Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not baptized at all, why are they baptized on their behalf (1 Corinthians 15:28-29)?"

The word "otherwise" is key: in other words, if God is not ultimately going to "be everything to everyone," what is the point of proxy baptism for the sinful dead?"

Monna said:

It is quite possible you misunderstood me, or rather that I wasn't clear enough about I meant. To be a living sacrifice, pleasing God is one thing. To think that I can do (or not do in some cases) things (good works) to gain entrance to God's presence, in the sense of obligating him to honour my good work by "opening the door" is something else. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. I please God because I love him, I want to please him, and because he is worthy - NOT with the intent that my pleasing him is the reason he will approve of me and save me. He only approves of "me" because I am hidden in his Son, Jesus Christ.

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Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey His teachings and that his teachings are not his own, but that of the Father (John 14:23-24), so obedience to God has always been about expressing our love for Him. He also said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23), and obedience to God is straightforwardly about expressing our faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live, so obedience to God has always been about growing in an intimate relationship with Him based of love and faith, and has never been about trying to earn something. God does not command us to do good works all throughout the Bible and then view them with disdain as filthy rags when we seek by faith to obey Him, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it was not God speaking, but rather it was the people complaining about how they thought God was viewing their works.

Monna said:

Scripture reference please.

Neither you nor I decide who is in heaven.

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its my opinion. you can believe the opposite, but God sending aborted babies to hell is not
one i chose to.

mercyfollowsme said:

its my opinion. you can believe the opposite, but God sending aborted babies to hell is not
one i chose to.

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Jesus said Matthew18v3 ....... "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
In contrast, the church teaches that unless we have an academic understanding of the death and resurrection of Jesus, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven!
The church often reinforces that ideology by refusing conformation or water baptism to young children because they "cannot possibly understand the bible" yet.

I am convinced that the youngest baby in the womb can respond to the Spirit of God. When the Lord said in Revelations "Behold I stand at the door and knock", it wasn't with a bible study in his hand, he came with God's abundant love just like he did when he walked in Galilee.
Like the Pharisees, it is only man's selfish and rebellious willpower which keeps that door firmly closed against God!

Thus without learning, a baby's spirit can be open or closed to the presence of the Lord, with no need for theological explanations.

Here are some babies that responded to the Lord in the womb, with no theological help!

Luke1v41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

Gal1v15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Isaiah49v1Coastlands, listen to me; distant peoples, pay attention. The LORD called me before I was born. He named me while I was in my mother's womb.

Jeremiah1v5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It is generally thought that God decided while they were in the womb, that when they grew up he would use them. However I believe that these babies responded to the Holy Spirit whilst in the womb, and on account of that willingness, God was able to use them.

Obviously, God knows from before the foundation of the world those who would respond to him.
But if the above verses meant that alone, then they would say it, as indeed Paul says in Romans 8v29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

I might add that my wife, born in a non Christian family, at the age of 3 was taken up into the third heaven like Paul was.
She met Jesus and the heavenly city with its walls and gates, plus many other amazing sights. Her mother thought it all childish imagination so she gradually stopped talking about it.
It wasn't till she was 18 that someone gave her a bible which she read from cover to cover. She read the descriptions of the heavenly city which were exactly as she had seen when she visited as a child.

Dave G. said:

I think that was his point.

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While it may have been, there are some non-believers on here and people who are not strong in their faith. This type of post could hurt, could lead them astray, and I only mean to point people to the Lord. Not poke fun at them those people. Think about what you say and recall the book of James concerning controlling tongue. I'm not a perfect example of eloquent speech nor the best at exhortation by any means but we should try to speak in a good conscience. Though we may have a comment like this, it may have been better to rephrase it to enable one to lead others to Christ. Otherwise, it is best to keep quiet as the Lord tells us to do in such cases.

MyGivenNameIsKeith said:

While it may have been, there are some non-believers on here and people who are not strong in their faith. This type of post could hurt, could lead them astray, and I only mean to point people to the Lord. Not poke fun at them those people. Think about what you say and recall the book of James concerning controlling tongue. I'm not a perfect example of eloquent speech nor the best at exhortation by any means but we should try to speak in a good conscience. Though we may have a comment like this, it may have been better to rephrase it to enable one to lead others to Christ. Otherwise, it is best to keep quiet as the Lord tells us to do in such cases.

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May God Bless your ministry to those people you may not speak so eloquently to.. My experience is that if God is in it, that is to say the Holy Spirit set up a divine appointment, we don't need eloquence so much but truth yes. He makes it work how ever you say it as long as what you say is truth.

rrobsr said:

The word spirit in the NT is the Greek word pneuma. It has a rather broad meaning, but the general meaning is "a blast" or "a wind." Generally it is something invisible to our eyes yet has a real existence. It is used in a few different senses that have to be determined by context.

1 Thess 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

This verse mentions three things; body, soul, and spirit. Spirit and soul are not equivalent.

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I was talking about man's spirit and never even mentioned the word "soul", nor did I imply spirit and soul were equivalent.

Paul was speaking to born again believers who have been saved which is the Greek word sozo which means to be made whole. The natural man mentioned in the scriptures is a man of body and soul only.

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The body without the spirit is dead, that's what scripture says and it doesn't just refer to born again people.
If man's spirit refers to the holy spirit, then how can the Holy Spirit be wounded?
Prov18v14A man's spirit can endure sickness, but who can survive a broken spirit?

If Hannah's spirit is the Holy Spirit, how can the Holy Spirit be sorrowful?
1Sam1v15And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.

Scripture frequently refers to man's own human spirit which can undergo many things which affect its nature.

When you were born again you received the spirit of God which Adam lost. That is why we are whole again. We are back to what God intended in the beginning. It is the spirit of God that gives us eternal life and a connection with God in the here and now.

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That goes without saying.

Soul is not eternal. As I mentioned it is nothing more than breath life.

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You are now mixing soul and spirit up.
In the original Greek, "breath of life" is "pneuma zoes" ie. our spirit life, whereas soul is "psuche".
If the soul is nothing more than the breath of life, which ceases when we die, then it makes a nonsense of this verse.
Matt10v28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
If someone can kill our body, but not our soul, then our soul must continue living after death, otherwise it could not be cast into hell (or heaven).

Speaking of Rachel:
Gen 35:18,

And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.​

When you die it is because you stop breathing. Your soul departs.

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Your spirit departs also.
Luke8v54But Jesus took her by the hand and called out, “Child, get up!” 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she got up. And He directed that she be given something to eat.
The girl's spirit could not have returned on Jesus's command, unless it had first departed when she died.

God also created man in his own image (Gen 1:27). God is spirit (John 4:24). He does not have a body or a soul. So far Adam has a both soul and a spirit.

God formed man's body from the dirt (Gen 2:7). So Adam was originally body, soul, and spirit. The spirit was his connection with God. He lost it when he sinned and became a man of body and soul only, the "natural man" I mentioned above.

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Saint or sinner, man always has a human spirit, otherwise he would be dead!
Psalm78v8And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not steadfast with God.
The above clearly describes the human spirit.
"Whose spirit" cannot possibly refer to the Holy Spirit, as that would always remain steadfast with God.

1Cor 2:14,

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.​

The natural man does not receive the things of God because God communicates his truth to us via his gift of holy spirit. Soul has nothing to do with it.

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God the Holy Spirit only communicates with our human spirit.
Ever since Adam ate of the Tree of knowledge rather than the Tree of Life, man's intellectual knowledge has overruled his human spirit. That intellect must first be put aside, and the human spirit woken up, and only then can we discern the call of God's Spirit.

This is demonstrated by what Jesus told the disciples-
Matt18v3And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
A child's intellect is not yet formed, but his human spirit is alert from the womb! Therefore a child grasps spiritual things way ahead of adults.

Now the miracle of all miracles is that, despite our lost connection with God as natural men, he can somehow get through enough so that we can get born again. Then we get the spirit back (we are now body, soul, and spirit) and we can learn all we desire to learn about God through the scriptures.

When we, as born again believers, fall asleep (i.e. die) our soul departs,

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And where do you suppose the soul departs to?

our body goes to dust and our spirit lives on for eternity. Without the spirit of God there is just nothing left to "go" anywhere.

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Scripture tells us that heaven is full of children. I'm with you on this. No baby as far as I'm concerned is in hell; aborted or not. Jesus also said to "suffer not the little children to come unto me, etc."

To be saved, a savior would have to be involved. If Christ isn't saving you, who is, and from what, and to give you what end result?

Soyeong said:

so obedience to God has always been about growing in an intimate relationship with Him based of love and faith, and has never been about trying to earn something.

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Soyeong, you may speak for yourself. But I know people who try to obey God (and believe that they do) because they think this is the way to earn salvation. Not everyone, and not even all who claim to be believers live their lives entirely in love; many do the right thing because they think it is right (often based on socialisation) rather than because they love God. Do you keep the speed limit because you love God or because you know there's a speed check up ahead... be honest now!

Monna said:

Soyeong, you may speak for yourself. But I know people who try to obey God (and believe that they do) because they think this is the way to earn salvation. Not everyone, and not even all who claim to be believers live their lives entirely in love; many do the right thing because they think it is right (often based on socialisation) rather than because they love God. Do you keep the speed limit because you love God or because you know there's a speed check up ahead... be honest now!

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I try to keep the speed limit because I don't want to be fined or lose my licence.
It has nothing to do with salvation.

Francis Drake said:

I try to keep the speed limit because I don't want to be fined or lose my licence.
It has nothing to do with salvation.

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Exactly. Your obedience to the law is not done out of any motive of love for God or anyone else. You/we can do all kinds of "good" or "right" things but 1 Cor 13 tells us if they are not done out of love, they count for nothing (for us) from God's perspective.

Monna said:

Soyeong, you may speak for yourself. But I know people who try to obey God (and believe that they do) because they think this is the way to earn salvation. Not everyone, and not even all who claim to be believers live their lives entirely in love; many do the right thing because they think it is right (often based on socialisation) rather than because they love God. Do you keep the speed limit because you love God or because you know there's a speed check up ahead... be honest now!

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When I said that obedience to God was never about trying to earn out salvation, I was speaking about the intention of God's commands, not denying that there have been people who have tried to earn their salvation by obeying them. In Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:4, it is precisely because Israel had this misunderstand of the purpose of God's Law that they failed to obtain righteousness. It wasn't because they did what God told them to and He gave them faulty commands, but rather they pursued the Law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the Law as though righteousness were by faith. They had a zeal for God, but their zeal was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that the goal of the Law is a relationship with Christ for righteousness for everyone who has faith.