Do we need the law to stay righteous?

Doug Melven · Nov 19, 2017

expos4ever said:
The problem should be obvious: If we are being imputed with Christ's righteousness and saved on that basis, that really works out to slipping in a "good works" based salvation by the back door.

True, under the imputation view, it is Jesus's life of perfect good works that gives us a "pass", but it is good works nonetheless. And that seems to contradict the central notion that salvation is not based on good works - whether mine or Jesus's - but rather on faith.

Why do we have faith in Christ? Because He kept the law perfectly. He didn't just fulfill the "Thou shalt nots", but the "Thou shalts" as well.

expos4ever said:
You cannot simply assume this - this is what we are debating. There is no doubt that the Scriptures teach that we are "in Christ". But that does not imply we are ascribed His status of righteousness.

Romans 6:3 says we are baptized into His Body, 1 Cor 12 talks extensively about the Body of Christ. Why would His hands and feet have just a status?

expos4ever said:
You could equally well argue that being in Christ means we are imputed Jesus's own status as the son of God. But surely no one would claim this.

No, we are His children. He is still the Head. We are not equal to God. We just have His righteousness.

expos4ever said:
This text does not say that we are imputed with God's righteousness

Eph 4:24 does say how this New Man was created. After God, in righteousness and true holiness. Not after man's..

expos4ever said:
Only Jews are under the Law.

Only the lawless and disobedient etc... 1 Tim 1:8-9

expos4ever said:
True, but you cannot simply assume that this is God's own righteous status.

I did not say it was. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. If Abraham were alive today, he would be under the law until he was born-again.

expos4ever said:
And yet this is precisely what happens in lawcourts around the world every day - people are declared to be "in the right" (acquitted), and none of them are told "you are imputed with the righteousness of another person

In lawcourts today do we have people being sentenced to death and someone else stepping to pay the penalty. Remember we are justified od declared innocent. Greek word for justified.
Strong's No.:
G1344
Greek:
δικαιόω
Transliteration:
dikaioō
Pronunciation:
dik-ah-yo'-o
Definition:
From G1342; to render (that is show or regard as) just or innocent: - free justify (-ier) be righteous.

expos4ever said:
….and concludes that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, then logical consistency demands that we conclude that his wisdom is also imputed to us.

I would agree with that. We have the mind of Christ 1 Cor 2:16

Soyeong · Nov 19, 2017

Doug Melven said:
This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.
We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?
I believe the answer is no, here's why.
There is no doubt that sin is defined as breaking God's 10 Commandments.

In the same way that a Firefighter is someone who fights fires, doing what is righteous is the vocation of someone who is righteous, so when God declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness. The distinction between someone who practices righteousness and someone who practices sin is not based upon whether we are perfectly obedience, but based upon whether we continue to practice repentance. So if a person is someone who practices righteousness, then committing a sin does not make them unrighteous because the sin is the exception rather than the practice. But if that person were to stop practicing repentance, then sin would become practice instead and they would not be righteous, though it wouldn't be because of their action, but because of their lack of faith in God to guide them in how to rightly live.

There is no doubt that sin is defined as breaking God's 10 Commandments.

Click to expand...

Sin is any disobedience to any of God's commands, so it is at least inclusive of the Ten Commandments.

But we see David saying in Psalm 32, "Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,"
Then in Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our
transgressions from us.
Then we have John the Baptist saying in John 1:29," Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh
away the sin of the world."
Also Hebrews 9:26 but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away
sin by the sacrifice of himself.
So thanks to Jesus our sin is not an issue.
In 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 we see that we are New Creations, and He does not impute our sins
to us, and He makes us righteous, even the righteousness of Christ, which is perfect.

Click to expand...

Indeed, there is now no condemnation for those who are who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), however, those who are in Christ ought to obey his teachings and walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), so if a person is willfully disobeying any of God's commands, then it should they should consider just how much in Christ they are.

JIMINZ · Nov 19, 2017

expos4ever said:
Obviously, you need to draw your own conclusions. Mine is that the Christian, while indeed being imputed with a status of righteousness, is not imputed with Jesus's righteousness. And some respected theologians believe likewise.

.
2Co. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

What we see is, we were made sinners, and righteous, in like manner.

The operative word being MADE, not IMPUTED, or Declared

BobRyan · Nov 19, 2017

Doug Melven said:
This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.

Should be everybody on this board.

And of course under the Gospel... the New Covenant...the "Law of God is written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 , Hebrews 8:6-10

We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?

Indeed -- will rebellion against God - cause a problem for the saints who choose to "be not deceived".

1 Cor 6 answers the question... so also does 1 John 3 and both begin with "do not be deceived".

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you t... 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

JIMINZ · Nov 19, 2017

expos4ever said:
You could equally well argue that being in Christ means we are imputed Jesus's own status as the son of God.

.
Your right of course, but while not being The Son of God, we are
The Children of God.

Gal. 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Rom. 8:16,17
16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Doug Melven · Nov 19, 2017

Soyeong said:
In the same way that a Firefighter is someone who fights fires, doing what is righteous is the vocation of someone who is righteous, so when God declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness. The distinction between someone who practices righteousness and someone who practices sin is not based upon whether we are perfectly obedience, but based upon whether we continue to practice repentance. So if a person is someone who practices righteousness, then committing a sin does not make them unrighteous because the sin is the exception rather than the practice. But if that person were to stop practicing repentance, then sin would become practice instead and they would not be righteous, though it wouldn't be because of their action, but because of their lack of faith in God to guide them in how to rightly live.

Welcome back Soyeong. Did you enjoy your Sabbath?

In 1 John 3 it says we who are born from above cannot sin. Not we sin and then repent, but we actually cannot sin because the Seed of God is in us.
The spirit part of me, the real me or the new man, is who these verses are talking about.
But, the flesh part of me, the part that people see when they look at me without eyes of faith, sins every day.
I don't change my mind about sin, I believe it is evil, but I do thank God that He has forgiven me for that sin and I ask for grace not to do it again.

JIMINZ · Nov 19, 2017

expos4ever said:
And we all know that we are not all walking around with the wisdom of Christ.

.
1Co. 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Doug Melven · Nov 19, 2017

BobRyan said:
1 Cor 6 answers the question... so also does 1 John 3 and both begin with "do not be deceived".

Actually neither of those Scriptures make a point like you said they do.
Despite these activities of taking there brothers to court and doing some of those other things listed, Paul still called them "saints". And the Corinthian church was probably the most carnal of all the churches Paul wrote to.
And 1 John 3 says those who are born of God cannot sin. It does not say they don't make a practice of it.

JIMINZ · Nov 19, 2017

BobRyan said:
Should be everybody on this board.

And of course under the Gospel... the New Covenant...the "Law of God is written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 , Hebrews 8:6-10

Indeed -- will rebellion against God - cause a problem for the saints who choose to "be not deceived".

1 Cor 6 answers the question... so also does 1 John 3 and both begin with "do not be deceived".

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you t...
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

.
Are you able to provide a verse or verses,
where Salvation and the Kingdom are used as Synonyms?

bekkilyn · Nov 19, 2017

Christians have the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. In most cases, the Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit except on rare occasions when the Spirit would come upon one of them, and then it was only temporary. Because of Jesus, we have the Holy Spirit with us always. Why go back to law when God gave us the gift of himself?

Doug Melven · Nov 19, 2017

JIMINZ said:
2Co. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

What we see is, we were made sinners, and righteous, in like manner.

The opooerative word being MADE, not IMPUTED, or Declared

Throughout this thread I have used "imputed" and "made" almost synonomously.
Where expos4ever and I are disagreeing is the class of this righteousness.
I say it is the righteousness of Christ/God and he is saying no it is something else.
But looking at the actual definition of the word "impute" I most definitely agree "made" is a better word.

BobRyan · Nov 19, 2017

Doug Melven said:
This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.

Should be everybody on this board.

And of course under the Gospel... the New Covenant...the "Law of God is written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 , Hebrews 8:6-10

We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?

Indeed -- will rebellion against God - cause a problem for the saints who choose to "be not deceived".

1 Cor 6 answers the question... so also does 1 John 3 and both begin with "do not be deceived".

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you t... 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

JIMINZ said:
.
Are you able to provide a verse or verses,
where Salvation and the Kingdom are used as Synonyms?

Something other than Daniel 7? and Matthew 5?? and Matthew 25:34??

BobRyan · Nov 19, 2017

bekkilyn said:
Christians have the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. In most cases, the Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit except on rare occasions

So then that's "another gospel" -- the actual Gospel has the new birth caused by the Holy Spirit - which even before the cross - Christ reminds Nicodemus that as a Bible teacher in Israel he would have to have known this.

I prefer "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9

BobRyan · Nov 19, 2017

Doug Melven said:
This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.

Should be everybody on this board.

And of course under the Gospel... the New Covenant...the "Law of God is written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 , Hebrews 8:6-10

We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?

Indeed -- will rebellion against God - cause a problem for the saints who choose to "be not deceived".

1 Cor 6 answers the question... so also does 1 John 3 and both begin with "do not be deceived".

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you t... 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Doug Melven said:
Actually neither of those Scriptures make a point like you said they do.

until you read them and notice the irrefutable details in the actual text.

Doug Melven · Nov 19, 2017

BobRyan said:
So then that's "another gospel" -- the actual Gospel has the new birth caused by the Holy Spirit - which even before the cross - Christ reminds Nicodemus that as a Bible teacher in Israel he would have to have known this.

I prefer "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9

Paul, who wrote those verses, in the same letter he wrote Galatians 2:20.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
And Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

How is that another Gospel?
Do you not believe the Holy Spirit dwells in you?

Doug Melven · Nov 19, 2017

BobRyan said:
until you read them and notice the irrefutable details in the actual text.

Irrrefutable details of 1 Cor 6
1 Does any of you who has a complaint against someone dare go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest cases?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels-not to speak of things pertaining to this life?
4 So if you have cases pertaining to this life, do you select those who have no standing in the church to judge?
5I say this to your shame! Can it be that there is not one wise person among you who will be able to arbitrate between his brothers?
6Instead, brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
7 Therefore, it is already a total defeat for you that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather be cheated?
8 Instead, you act unjustly and cheat-and this to brothers!
9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom.
11 Some of you were like this; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorifying God in Body and Spirit
12 "Everything is permissible for me," but not everything is helpful. "Everything is permissible for me," but I will not be brought under the control of anything.
13 "Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods," but God will do away with both of them. The body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
14God raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
15Do you not know that your bodies are the members of Christ? So should I take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Absolutely not!
16 Do you not know that anyone joined to a prostitute is one body with her? For it says, The two will become one flesh.
17 But anyone joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18Flee from sexual immorality! "Every sin a person can commit is outside the body," but the person who is sexually immoral sins against his own body.
19 Do you not know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
20 for you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body.
Paul was saying these people were just despite there actions, Christ/Holy Spirit was still in them even though they were doing terrible things.
Irrefutable details of 1 John 3:1-10
1 Look at how great a love the Father has given us, that we should be called God's children. And we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it didn't know Him.
2 Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law.
5 You know that He was revealed so that He might take away sins, and there is no sin in Him.
6 Everyone who remains in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil's works.
9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how God's children-and the Devil's children-are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother.

According to verse 6 if you remain in Christ, you do not sin. See John 6:37 and 10:29-30 about being in Christ.
According to verse 7 we are righteous, so we do righteousness, not to become righteous.
According to verse 8, if you sin you are of the devil. Obviously we Christians are not of the devil, but there is a part of us that is still not righteous. That would be our flesh. Romans 7:18
[FONT=helvetica, arial]According to verse 9, those of us who are born of God, cannot sin, because the Seed of God is in us. kjv
According to verse 10, if you don't do what is right, you are not of God, especially if you don't love your brother.
In these verses there is nothing about repentance. If there was that would be like saying God can sin as long as He repents. I am not prepared to go there.[/FONT]

BobRyan · Nov 19, 2017

Doug Melven said:
Irrrefutable details of 1 Cor 6

7 Therefore, it is already a total defeat for you that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather be cheated?
8 Instead, you act unjustly and cheat-and this to brothers!
9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom.
11 Some of you were like this; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

According to verse 6 if you remain in Christ, you do not sin. .[/FONT]

Clearly then - those who were washed, sanctified, justified in the name of Jesus - were... "defeated" and were in danger of being deceived by forgetting that " no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom."

BobRyan · Nov 19, 2017

bekkilyn said:
Christians have the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. In most cases, the Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit except on rare occasions

So then that's "another gospel" -- the actual Gospel has the new birth caused by the Holy Spirit - which even before the cross - Christ reminds Nicodemus that as a Bible teacher in Israel he would have to have known this.

I prefer "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9

Doug Melven said:
Paul, who wrote those verses, in the same letter he wrote Galatians 2:20.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
And Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

How is that another Gospel?
Do you not believe the Holy Spirit dwells in you?

The post I responded to argued for no Holy Spirit .. for the OT saints , the OT giants of faith in Hebrews 11 -- but the Gospel without the Holy Spirit would be "another Gospel".

But your version is also problematic because you don't have a sinless Christian to point to - as your example of Christians not sinning.

==================

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

bekkilyn · Nov 19, 2017

BobRyan said:
So then that's "another gospel" -- the actual Gospel has the new birth caused by the Holy Spirit - which even before the cross - Christ reminds Nicodemus that as a Bible teacher in Israel he would have to have known this.

I prefer "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9

John 14:26
25 “I have said these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you."

Future tense. Hadn't happened yet.

Acts 2:1-4
"2 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly from heaven there came a sound like the rush of a violent wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 Divided tongues, as of fire, appeared among them, and a tongue rested on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them ability."

Occurred after Jesus's resurrection, after the cross. Fulfillment of the promise Jesus made in John 14:26.

BobRyan · Nov 19, 2017

bekkilyn said:
Christians have the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. In most cases, the Israelites did not have the Holy Spirit except on rare occasions

So then that's "another gospel" -- the actual Gospel has the new birth caused by the Holy Spirit - which even before the cross - Christ reminds Nicodemus that as a Bible teacher in Israel he would have to have known this.

I prefer "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9

bekkilyn said:
John 14:26
25 “I have said these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you."

Future tense. Hadn't happened yet.

Acts 2:1-4
"2 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly from heaven there came a sound like the rush of a violent wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 Divided tongues, as of fire, appeared among them, and a tongue rested on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them ability."

Occurred after Jesus's resurrection, after the cross. Fulfillment of the promise Jesus made in John 14:26.

John 3 - -BEFORE the cross.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Matthew 17 - Moses and Elijah in glory WITH Christ - before the Cross.

Gal 1:6-9.. only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:8 that Gospel was preached to Abraham

Do we need the law to stay righteous?

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