What is foreknowledge?

Acure

Member
Nov 9, 2017
10
2
64
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
✟8,230.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
hi

this theory completely contradicts the teachings of the bible.

if this is foreknowledge and accurate then there is no need for free will, heaven and hell, sin,, the devil,God ,salvation christianity or any commandments what so ever,

they are all completely irrelevant

your understanding and concept of foreknowledge means no one is accountable liable or responsible.

we are all just programmed robots fulfilling the program we have already be programmed to do.

there are no murders rapists or good or bad people because we are just fulfilling our programs as robots.

there is no corruption or chaos in the world as we all just fulfilling our programs.

another words this theory means we are just salve labour and amusement for a board entity.

that dosent sound right

it sounds like another tactic the enemy would use to steal kill and destroy from Christians.
You completely misunderstood me or have not read all I said. I am proposing that before Genesis 1, before the foundation of the world we were created but without bodies. We were in a long dream where we responded to what God was saying to us or showing us. Then God searched us and knew us. The information God was searching was made by us using free will, not determined by God. God then knew us before the foundation of the earth.
 
Upvote 0

lee11

Active Member
Nov 10, 2017
114
39
34
melbourne
✟34,951.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You completely misunderstood me or have not read all I said. I am proposing that before Genesis 1, before the foundation of the world we were created but without bodies. We were in a long dream where we responded to what God was saying to us or showing us. Then God searched us and knew us. The information God was searching was made by us using free will, not determined by God. God then knew us before the foundation of the earth.

hi

my response was not directed at your posts it was it was directed at this post

Fair point. My contention though is not regarding where the free choice originates, but that foreknowledge implies no choice at all. Once a future action is established as truth, we have no choice but to act that way even if it appears to be free.

if we dont have free will or choice we are only completing what we have been programmed to do.

we are robots we can not be held accountable or responsible for our thoughts words or deeds because according to some peoples theory regarding foreknowledge we are only completing our programming.( and everyones is entitled to there point of view)

which we have no control to change modify or amend.

this interpretation of foreknowledge means there is no need for salvation God the devil good bad or anything as we are just robots completing our pre programming.

this contradicts the bible.

what is the purpose of any story in the bible if we are only robots without choice completing our program, this means we are salves.

but more than that to impose your will upon another persons will without there permission or consent is actually called WITCHCRAFT.

is this is peoples theory of foreknowledge then are we actually implying the practice of witchcraft?

now does that sound right!

i dont know if we were created before bodies but when God formed Adam out of the ground he blew into Adams nostrils and Adam become a living soul.

Our parents provide our bodies which are our vessels and God provides the spirit

now the reason Adam become a living soul is because God is Spirit and because God cannot die he breathed or transferred part of himself which is spirit into Adams lifeless vessel via Adams nose and Adam immediately came to life.

the spirit enters a persons vessel as a spirt but when that vessel passes away a persons spirt leaves the vessel with the vessels image personality emotions and characteristics and is now called the soul of the person.

the reason why the soul is held in hell for torment or heaven until the 2nd coming is because the soul of the person cannot die because it is the spirit or the breath of God and God cannot die because he is eternal.

therefore our soul is judged according to our thoughts words and deeds whist we were in our vessels upon earth.

to imply we have no free will or choice based on foreknowledge means everything is irrelevant and Christians and non Christians are in the same boat and equal.

God decides our fate or reward.

if this is the case there is no such thing as sin and no need for salvation.

that is a dictatorship and plain and simple communism
 
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
hi

this theory completely contradicts the teachings of the bible.

if this is foreknowledge and accurate then there is no need for free will, heaven and hell, sin,, the devil,God ,salvation christianity or any commandments what so ever,

they are all completely irrelevant

your understanding and concept of foreknowledge means no one is accountable liable or responsible.

we are all just programmed robots fulfilling the program we have already be programmed to do.

there are no murders rapists or good or bad people because we are just fulfilling our programs as robots.

there is no corruption or chaos in the world as we all just fulfilling our programs.

another words this theory means we are just salve labour and amusement for a board entity.

that dosent sound right

it sounds like another tactic the enemy would use to steal kill and destroy from Christians.

I see from your next post you are responding to the notion of foreknowledge of free-will. I 100% agree that foreknowledge of free-will is a contradiction when free-will is defined as could have acted otherwise. If the future is known, then there is no way to act other than the way we will act, and free-will is then an illusion. I'm of the mind that God can know the future by making it happen as @jesus316 posted, by exercising His omniscience of the natural world, by foreseeing that certain events will take place in all possible future scenarios, and last the Bible shows in many places that there is conditional foreknowledge--many prophecies fall in this category e.g. Jonah.
 
Upvote 0

Everybodyknows

The good guys lost
Dec 19, 2016
796
763
Australia
✟45,191.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think that this was a pretty good summary. Note however the obstacle cannot be a physical thing (such as a rock, even hidden) because one does not need foreknowledge to know that the rock that was there 40 years ago when the house was built won't have suddenly disappeared in the meantime.
Thanks. I believe God knows everything in the present because he is omnipresent, not just by extrapolation of the past. If the rock suddenly disappeared he would know of it anyway. But I agree that rocks and physical things are a poor analogy. What we are really talking about is God's perspective on human choices and whether he knows everything in advance.

For example, after the exodus the Israelites come to the promised land and God wants them to take the land then and there. The Israelites however respond in fear and God then curses them to wander the wilderness for 40 years (Numbers 14). The question is did God know this would happen? Was 40 years in the wilderness always his plan. If immediate occupation was his plan and he knew it wouldn't come to pass why would he even bother having a plan that he knew wouldn't happen?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0

lee11

Active Member
Nov 10, 2017
114
39
34
melbourne
✟34,951.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I see from your next post you are responding to the notion of foreknowledge of free-will. I 100% agree that foreknowledge of free-will is a contradiction when free-will is defined as could have acted otherwise. If the future is known, then there is no way to act other than the way we will act, and free-will is then an illusion. I'm of the mind that God can know the future by making it happen as @jesus316 posted, by exercising His omniscience of the natural world, by foreseeing that certain events will take place in all possible future scenarios, and last the Bible shows in many places that there is conditional foreknowledge--many prophecies fall in this category e.g. Jonah.

hi

i dont understand the concept of foreknowledge as in our destiny has already been preplanned therefore we have no choice or free will to change modify or amend it because that makes us unaccountable for our thoughts words and deeds.

sin salvation good or bad is not relevant here due to pre-programming.

however i do accept that there are many paths and God may know the outcome of each path.

but we get to decide which path we follow.

we can stop change or even ask for help when we are experiencing difficulties on certain paths and ask God to guide us and we are held accountable for our thoughts words and deeds.

now if this was part of the structure of foreknowledge then it would make more sense and preserve the teachings and principals of the bible.

then there is Gods plan for our lives.

where he has a specific path or plan for us to follow but it is voluntary and his plan or path for our lives involves us completing Gods aims objectives and his goals.

I believe this is called sacrifice submission surrendering and obedience.



Peace
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
however i do accept that there are many paths and God may know the outcome of each path.

Agree. Foreknowledge of all paths can allow for some predictions because certain truths will remain true in all paths.

but get we get to decide which path we follow. now if this was part of the structure of foreknowledge then it would make more sense and preserve the teachings and principals of the bible.

Agree.

then there is Gods plan for our lives.

where he has a specific path or plan for us to follow but it is voluntary and his plan or path for our lives involves us completing Gods aims objectives and his goals.

I heard a great quote yesterday that basically said, God doesn't have a singular plan for our lives, rather He has a purpose. He places His purpose within us and we work with Him to live out our purpose. I like this because rather than trying to find exactly what I should be doing every moment, searching for God's will like a needle in a haystack, hoping I'm doing the right thing (but worried I'm not), rather than these guilt-building ideas we simply learn who we are, what we love, what we are good at, and then use our gifts and live out our purpose.
 
Upvote 0

Acure

Member
Nov 9, 2017
10
2
64
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
✟8,230.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is this your way of saying "God is omniscient with respect to the past"?



Are you saying here that God does not know the complete future? Can I clarify, do you believe He knows the future with regard to our world/universe, but doesn't know the entire future beyond that? Or do you believe He knows only some part of the future with regard to our universe?



I absolutely agree with you.



Are you arguing that, because God knows us so well, He knows the future?



I agree it is possible.



I'm pretty sure I understand your proposal, but I still don't see how it solves the problem. You are arguing that, by God knowing us very well, He knows exactly what we will choose because He's seen us choose before--in dreams. I just don't see how this is any different to the example of Danielle in the post to @Everybodyknows #164? As I said, if God already knows exactly what we will do, can we do otherwise? You seem to be redefining freewill as acts unencumbered rather than could have acted otherwise. You are saying, once we have chosen something, when faced with that same decision, we will always choose that again. Wouldn't this mean we can not act otherwise, and therefore we do not have free will? Perhaps in our dreams we had free will, but not after--because we can no longer choose anything but what has already been determined by our previous choices. I also don't understand why God would send a spirit into the earth, that He has already seen from the dreams, will inevitably not be saved. Why did He choose to send the psychopaths and murderers? Can you explain a bit further?
I just don't see how this is any different to the example of Danielle in the post to @Everybodyknows #164?
Based on your many "I agree" statements you said regarding my posts it seems to be we are in agreement of many things. I am just proposing a new way of explaining how God knows.
There are a few mechanisms or means that people who believe in indeterminism explain how God knows future decisions of men yet man has free will. How can God know what you decide to do before you decide to do?
1. God is outside of time. The problem with this idea is that from our point of view, God knows what we will do before we even exist.
2. God foresees our faith and all else that we will do, but it is a mystery how He does it.
3. God does not have complete foreknowledge. This view is called open theism and I disagree with this view.
I am proposing point #4.
4. God searches us before He knows what we will do. This is Biblical. Somehow though we have to write our own hearts before God can search our hearts. This is not explained in the Bible.
So I would like to know how you believe that God knows future decisions of men.
As I said, if God already knows exactly what we will do, can we do otherwise? You seem to be redefining freewill as acts unencumbered rather than could have acted otherwise.
Of course we cannot do otherwise then what God knows we will do. But the question we are asking is "how does God exactly know what we will do?" I am not redefining free will. True free will means we could have done something other than we did.
You are saying, once we have chosen something, when faced with that same decision, we will always choose that again. Wouldn't this mean we can not act otherwise, and therefore we do not have free will?
No, I am not saying this. For instance I could choose to always buy vanilla ice cream. Then one day I may decide, I will try something different for a change. I make like cheeseburgers but I may say there is too much fat in that, maybe I should try something else. My taste buds tell me one thing. My health conscience tells me another thing. Some days I may choose my taste buds, some days I may choose my health conscience.

Morally there is the struggle between the flesh and God's Spirit in Romans 7 and 8. A person may struggle overcoming some sin habits that he knows they are wrong but he still does them because he enjoys them. inappropriate contentography would be one example. Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Sometimes we deny our fleshly desires and sometimes we don't. We may want to read the Bible everyday but sometimes we don't. Psalm 139:2 says that God knows when we sit down and when we will rise. Do we know exactly when and how often we will sit down tomorrow or stand up? Do we know even for the next hour? God knows us much better than we know ourselves. We do not always make the same decision in similar situations. Often different parts of us are telling us different messages. Our flesh, spirit, taste buds, health conscience may be saying many conflicting things. One moment we may choose one of them, the next day the other. We are complex beings, we cannot even understand ourselves or predict what we will do even in the next hour.
Perhaps in our dreams we had free will, but not after--because we can no longer choose anything but what has already been determined by our previous choices.
God wants to give man free will and He wants to be able to completely know what man will do before he does it. God is creator and He could make us anyway He wants to. God made man in such a way that He can search him and know him. Exactly how He did it I do not know. But for man to have true free choice, man must have been able to put inside his heart what God will be searching. If God wrote our hearts and then searched our hearts and knows us, it would be that God decrees what we will do. The details I do not know but for us to have true free will we would have to in some way write our own hearts.
I also don't understand why God would send a spirit into the earth, that He has already seen from the dreams, will inevitably not be saved. Why did He choose to send the psychopaths and murderers? Can you explain a bit further?
This is a question that theologians of all stripes don't know the answer to. Arminians say that God foresaw our faith and on that basis conditionally elects the believers. Then why did God not only create those that He foresaw faith in? Calvinists say that God unconditionally chose the elect not based on any foreseen faith. Then why did not just create the elect only? Why did God bother to make the present earth? Why did He not directly create heaven and avoid all this suffering?
I have a theory though on why God chose to make this world. Imagine a hockey team winning the Stanley Cup. Let us say that the backup goalie never played one minute of the entire playoffs yet he is part of the champion team. He may be happy that he won the cup but there is little joy compared to the goalie that played the entire playoffs for he knows that he contributed much to the success of the team. It is much easier to sit on the bench then suffering the physical sweat and hard work to accomplish the goal of winning.
Being interviewed after winning the cup, the starting goalie may say, "Yes this was a hard fought playoffs, but it was worth it. The hard work makes the victory so much sweeter!"
Romans 8:18 says something similar regarding our spiritual battle.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
James tells us to count it all joy when we fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.
Romans 5:3 says that we glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
There is not much joy in suffering when you are going through it. But the joy comes afterward.
God and the angels also benefit from having our earth first. Luke 15 talks about how the angels rejoice when one sinner repents. It is much sweeter if he repents by choice, not compulsion. In the parable of the lost sheep (Luke 15:6), Jesus the good shepherd calls his friends and neighbors to rejoice with Him for He found a sheep that was lost. The father of the prodigal son made a party to celebrate the return of his son who was lost but now is found.
So according to my view, God makes 3 worlds.
1. The first world is the world of dreams before creation so God will be able to give man free will but also know all what man will do.
2. This is our present world, a probation world to determine who will be saved and who will not. It is a suffering world but it will make the next world so much sweeter for those who persevere.
3. The third world will be one of eternal joy. No more tears, no more suffering and no more death. This will be much more meaningful for those who have experienced pain, tears, suffering and death.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. (Revelation 21:4).
 
Upvote 0

lee11

Active Member
Nov 10, 2017
114
39
34
melbourne
✟34,951.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Agree. Foreknowledge of all paths can allow for some predictions because certain truths will remain true in all paths.



Agree.



I heard a great quote yesterday that basically said, God doesn't have a singular plan for our lives, rather He has a purpose. He places His purpose within us and we work with Him to live out our purpose. I like this because rather than trying to find exactly what I should be doing every moment, searching for God's will like a needle in a haystack, hoping I'm doing the right thing (but worried I'm not), rather than these guilt-building ideas we simply learn who we are, what we love, what we are good at, and then use our gifts and live out our purpose.

hi

yes and no

no if you already believe foreknowledge is a preplanned outcome carried out by us the robot inhabitants than how can you say all paths.

there cant be all paths, only all pre planned programs.

there is no such thing is truth death or life, none of these things matter or can exist.

where pre programming has already decided the outcome.

we are just robots completing the program of murder rape love serial killing and contradicting all the teachings of the bible.

preplanned foreknowledge does not permit choice, free will, or provide us with the option to volunteer for any thing.

but yes your belief in preplanned foreknowledge does identify God as having a range of pre planed programs plans or purposes to exercise for his own agenda interest and amusement at our demise.

we are taking about two completely different concepts of foreknowledge.

i dont believe in the same concept of foreknowledge without free will choice or the option to volunteer.

I believe most people including my self dont understand many mysteries of the bible and repeat what others have said before them or develop their own opinions and theories.

but dont take into account other relevant factors which can lead to extreme or unbalanced conclusions.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Acure

Member
Nov 9, 2017
10
2
64
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
✟8,230.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Bible isn't really clear exactly on what God knows and when/how he knows it. Forever knowledge arises as somewhat of a necessity because we ascribe to God the attribute of omniscience. If he is all knowing in nature then he must always be all knowing. I.e. there is no time at which God didn't know something, if there was it would mean there was some point in the past where he became omniscient. If this were the case then we couldn't call him God because his nature is changeable. I don't necessarily agree with this though, it's all a matter of how we understand omniscience, but it seems to be pretty standard theology. Molinism and open theism challenge this view of omniscience in absolute terms.


Right. Sorry I misunderstood your point. That is quite a unique view, I've never come across something quite like it. Plenty to think about.

Just a question. Do you think God knew everything that would happen in creation at the moment of creation? Can things happen in the universe that God doesn't have foreknowledge of? Like the example of sacrificing children you gave, did this come unexpected to God?
Considering God's omniscience and immutability, I would say God's character does not change but His knowledge can.

Considering if God eternally knows all things, the Bible says in Psalm 139:1 "You have searched me and known me." If God eternally knows all things then He would have known me before He searched me. This would contradict this verse. God can only search within eternity, not outside of it.
Also I believe that God has a permissive will. He allows us to do evil even though God does not like it. God is omnipotent and He could stop all evil from happening but we know that obviously God permits evil, otherwise there would be no evil. God does not cause or decree evil. That is another reason why I believe in indeterminism. God would never determine evil.

From Scripture we know that God searches us in order to know us. The question is when did He search us. Jeremiah 1:5 says that God knew Jeremiah before He formed him in the womb. This means that God searched and knew Jeremiah and all other people even before they are in the womb.

According to Psalm 139:16 God has a book that He has written all about me including the days allotted to me, how many days I will live. If someone is murdered by a person younger than his victim, God permitted the murder, He did not decree it. The murder affects how many days that person lives. God would have to know that before He writes in His book how many days are allotted to the murder victim. If the murderer is 20 years younger than the victim, God would have had to know this at least 20 years before the murder victim was born. This again proves that God has searched us before we are conceived.

God has another book. This is the book of life written before the foundation of the earth (Revelation 13:8; 17:8). Now if God has not predetermined all we will do and if we have true free will then what is the determining factor for someone to be written in this book?
Regarding Romans 8:29, the Arminian view and that of the early church fathers in the 300 years before Augustine is that God foresaw our faith.

The conclusion is that God foresaw my faith before the foundation of the world. God must have searched me and then got to know me before the foundation of the earth. He did not know me forever. He only go to know me after He searched me. I have not existed forever. Therefore I must have been created in some way before the foundation of the earth.

God must have created me without my body before the foundation of the earth. I must have had the resources given by God where I could by free will choose and determine the way I think, how I decide to do anything, what I will believe and so forth. This would include all my stages of life. After this process was complete and I no longer had consciousness or memory of this, then God searched me and knew me, all before the foundation of the earth.

So considering God's complete foreknowledge of all things and God's gift of true free will to all people and especially Psalm 139:1 I come to the conclusion that I existed in some way before the foundation of the earth. Then God searched me and knew me before the foundation of the earth.
The word foreknowledge implies knowledge before something. The fore in foreknowledge refers to before the foundation of the earth, not forever. If God had eternal knowledge of all things then Romans 8:28 should say, "For whom He always knew ..."
Just a question. Do you think God knew everything that would happen in creation at the moment of creation? Can things happen in the universe that God doesn't have foreknowledge of? Like the example of sacrificing children you gave, did this come unexpected to God?
Yes I think that God knew everything that would happen in creation at the moment of creation. This would include knowing that Israel will sacrifice their children. God got to know all this when He searched us and then knew us. Yes He was surprised at some of the things that would happen like sacrificing children.
 
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes! We agree there is a problem with traditional views. I like the Open Theist position because it solves many problems, not just the free will + foreknowledge problem. Most importantly I believe it presents a reasonable solution to The Problem of Evil (in my opinion, God literally did not know that evil would occur before it occurred--He saw the potential for it but the creation of free agents was worth this risk--until I read a better response to the Problem of Evil I will find it difficult to receive a different systematic theology--but I hope to be always open to being convinced otherwise).

I would like to know how you believe that God knows future decisions of men.

I believe He can override human free will at specific times under specific conditions.
I believe He is omniscient with respect to the natural world and so can make predictions.
I believe some contingent possibilities remain true in all possible future scenarios.
I believe there is conditional foreknowledge -- e.g. Jonah.

I do not believe God knows every future decision of man -- if you disagree with this, can you present your reasons why?

Of course we cannot do otherwise then what God knows we will do. But the question we are asking is "how does God exactly know what we will do?" I am not redefining free will. True free will means we could have done something other than we did.

On the one side you are saying we cannot do otherwise than what God knows we will do. On the other side you are saying True free will means we could have done something other than we did. Are these not contradictory statements?

No, I am not saying this. For instance I could choose to always buy vanilla ice cream. Then one day I may decide, I will try something different for a change. I make like cheeseburgers but I may say there is too much fat in that, maybe I should try something else. My taste buds tell me one thing. My health conscience tells me another thing. Some days I may choose my taste buds, some days I may choose my health conscience.

Will you make the same decision every time when faced with the same circumstances? Here you seem to argue, no. But if you are arguing no, then God doesn't know our future actions based on His knowledge of our spirit. If you are arguing yes, then I do not see this as true free will.

We do not always make the same decision in similar situations.

Okay, so it seems you are saying that our future choices can not be foreknown -- even by God. We would agree. But if I have taken this line out of context, and you are saying our future choices can be known by God, same as before, are we truly free to do otherwise?

for us to have true free will we would have to in some way write our own hearts.

Good point, I haven't thought about God searching our hearts in this way -- that He searched our hearts because He didn't know what was there.

I have a theory though on why God chose to make this world. Imagine a hockey team winning the Stanley Cup. Let us say that the backup goalie never played one minute of the entire playoffs yet he is part of the champion team. He may be happy that he won the cup but there is little joy compared to the goalie that played the entire playoffs for he knows that he contributed much to the success of the team. It is much easier to sit on the bench then suffering the physical sweat and hard work to accomplish the goal of winning.
Being interviewed after winning the cup, the starting goalie may say, "Yes this was a hard fought playoffs, but it was worth it. The hard work makes the victory so much sweeter!"

An inspiring, positive outlook that works biblically. More comforting that other views I've come across. Would you say with God's foreknowledge that He intended suffering and evil in this world?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
According to Psalm 139:16 God has a book that He has written all about me including the days allotted to me, how many days I will live. If someone is murdered by a person younger than his victim, God permitted the murder, He did not decree it. The murder affects how many days that person lives. God would have to know that before He writes in His book how many days are allotted to the murder victim. If the murderer is 20 years younger than the victim, God would have had to know this at least 20 years before the murder victim was born. This again proves that God has searched us before we are conceived.

An excellent analysis of Psalms 139:16 from an Open Theists perspective can be found here.

In short, there are five reasons we can't use this verse to mean the complete future is known:

1. Just because God may know how long we will live, doesn't mean the entire future is known.
2. It's best not to use poetic writing to establish doctrine as there are often hyperbolic expressions.
3. The Hebrew is somewhat ambiguous and challenging to translate (the KJV and NKJV do not use the phrase "all the days were written" but instead use "all my members were written" with regard to God forming our bodies; having nothing to do with planning out or knowing the future events in our lives).
4. What is written in God's Book is not set in stone (Exodus 32:33, Revelation 3:5).
5. If the writer did in fact mean "all the days" we must still recognise that the days is referring to those days that God preordained for us to achieve certain goals, or plans such as with Josiah in 1 Kings 13:2-3, which is not every day of a persons life, but all the days that God has pre planned for them to achieve that aim.​
 
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe most people including my self dont understand many mysteries of the bible and repeat what others have said before them or develop their own opinions and theories.

but dont take into account other relevant factors which can lead to extreme or unbalanced conclusions.

There's some wisdom here. If one decides to "go out on a limb" and experiment with some ideas, it's most definitely a good idea to get some feedback before preaching it as truth! Similar concept to 1 Corinthians 14:29 :)
 
Upvote 0

Acure

Member
Nov 9, 2017
10
2
64
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
✟8,230.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
hi

my response was not directed at your posts it was it was directed at this post

Fair point. My contention though is not regarding where the free choice originates, but that foreknowledge implies no choice at all. Once a future action is established as truth, we have no choice but to act that way even if it appears to be free.

if we dont have free will or choice we are only completing what we have been programmed to do.

we are robots we can not be held accountable or responsible for our thoughts words or deeds because according to some peoples theory regarding foreknowledge we are only completing our programming.( and everyones is entitled to there point of view)

which we have no control to change modify or amend.

this interpretation of foreknowledge means there is no need for salvation God the devil good bad or anything as we are just robots completing our pre programming.

this contradicts the bible.

what is the purpose of any story in the bible if we are only robots without choice completing our program, this means we are salves.

but more than that to impose your will upon another persons will without there permission or consent is actually called WITCHCRAFT.

is this is peoples theory of foreknowledge then are we actually implying the practice of witchcraft?

now does that sound right!

i dont know if we were created before bodies but when God formed Adam out of the ground he blew into Adams nostrils and Adam become a living soul.

Our parents provide our bodies which are our vessels and God provides the spirit

now the reason Adam become a living soul is because God is Spirit and because God cannot die he breathed or transferred part of himself which is spirit into Adams lifeless vessel via Adams nose and Adam immediately came to life.

the spirit enters a persons vessel as a spirt but when that vessel passes away a persons spirt leaves the vessel with the vessels image personality emotions and characteristics and is now called the soul of the person.

the reason why the soul is held in hell for torment or heaven until the 2nd coming is because the soul of the person cannot die because it is the spirit or the breath of God and God cannot die because he is eternal.

therefore our soul is judged according to our thoughts words and deeds whist we were in our vessels upon earth.

to imply we have no free will or choice based on foreknowledge means everything is irrelevant and Christians and non Christians are in the same boat and equal.

God decides our fate or reward.

if this is the case there is no such thing as sin and no need for salvation.

that is a dictatorship and plain and simple communism
I apologize for the misunderstanding. All I read is the word theory and I am just proposing my own theory which is something completely else. So I thought you were talking to me.

I agree with what you are saying. I never thought of it as witchcraft before but you are right.

Concerning spirit, you are right. The word spirit means breath. In my unrelated posts I also was using the word spirit concerning the thinking part of man.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0

lee11

Active Member
Nov 10, 2017
114
39
34
melbourne
✟34,951.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I apologize for the misunderstanding. All I read is the word theory and I am just proposing my own theory which is something completely else. So I thought you were talking to me.

I agree with what you are saying. I never thought of it as witchcraft before but you are right.

Concerning spirit, you are right. The word spirit means breath. In my unrelated posts I also was using the word spirit concerning the thinking part of man.

hi

i am totally guilty of not reading your posts or others as i usually only read the OP topic of discussion and then contribute.

however sometimes i may read some ones quote and respond or if some one quotes my response i may respond.

foreknowledge has always been a mystery to me.

but i have heard the same discussion and conclusions from other Christians over the years.

Peace
 
Upvote 0

Everybodyknows

The good guys lost
Dec 19, 2016
796
763
Australia
✟45,191.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes I think that God knew everything that would happen in creation at the moment of creation. This would include knowing that Israel will sacrifice their children. God got to know all this when He searched us and then knew us. Yes He was surprised at some of the things that would happen like sacrificing children.
Am I understanding that you think the world is deterministic and that we don't have true free will in this life?

1. The first world is the world of dreams before creation so God will be able to give man free will but also know all what man will do.
2. This is our present world, a probation world to determine who will be saved and who will not. It is a suffering world but it will make the next world so much sweeter for those who persevere.
3. The third world will be one of eternal joy. No more tears, no more suffering and no more death. This will be much more meaningful for those who have experienced pain, tears, suffering and death.
I'm still failing to see the point of the present world if it is entirely determined by our actions in the first World. How is it a probation if the result is determined. If the first World is where God searches us and learns all there is too know about us then why is that not sufficient basis on which to judge us. I don't see how passing through an entirely determined existence adds anything.

I have a theory though on why God chose to make this world. Imagine a hockey team winning the Stanley Cup. Let us say that the backup goalie never played one minute of the entire playoffs yet he is part of the champion team. He may be happy that he won the cup but there is little joy compared to the goalie that played the entire playoffs for he knows that he contributed much to the success of the team. It is much easier to sit on the bench then suffering the physical sweat and hard work to accomplish the goal of winning.
Being interviewed after winning the cup, the starting goalie may say, "Yes this was a hard fought playoffs, but it was worth it. The hard work makes the victory so much sweeter!"
Romans 8:18 says something similar regarding our spiritual battle.
Would the victory seem as sweet when you realize that it was all pre determined anyway? What about all the suffering too? What purpose does out serve when we just could have skipped that stage? It just seems cruel and unfair.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Acure

Member
Nov 9, 2017
10
2
64
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
✟8,230.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes! We agree there is a problem with traditional views. I like the Open Theist position because it solves many problems, not just the free will + foreknowledge problem. Most importantly I believe it presents a reasonable solution to The Problem of Evil (in my opinion, God literally did not know that evil would occur before it occurred--He saw the potential for it but the creation of free agents was worth this risk--until I read a better response to the Problem of Evil I will find it difficult to receive a different systematic theology--but I hope to be always open to being convinced otherwise).



I believe He can override human free will at specific times under specific conditions.
I believe He is omniscient with respect to the natural world and so can make predictions.
I believe some contingent possibilities remain true in all possible future scenarios.
I believe there is conditional foreknowledge -- e.g. Jonah.

I do not believe God knows every future decision of man -- if you disagree with this, can you present your reasons why?



On the one side you are saying we cannot do otherwise than what God knows we will do. On the other side you are saying True free will means we could have done something other than we did. Are these not contradictory statements?



Will you make the same decision every time when faced with the same circumstances? Here you seem to argue, no. But if you are arguing no, then God doesn't know our future actions based on His knowledge of our spirit. If you are arguing yes, then I do not see this as true free will.



Okay, so it seems you are saying that our future choices can not be foreknown -- even by God. We would agree. But if I have taken this line out of context, and you are saying our future choices can be known by God, same as before, are we truly free to do otherwise?



Good point, I haven't thought about God searching our hearts in this way -- that He searched our hearts because He didn't know what was there.



An inspiring, positive outlook that works biblically. More comforting that other views I've come across. Would you say with God's foreknowledge that He intended suffering and evil in this world?
There are a few basic ways that theologians connect free will and predestination.
There is the God is outside time theory. The problem with this theory is that from a human perspective then we have no real free will. Something or someone external made all our choices for us. For theologians this would be God.

There is the God decrees all events theory. The problem with that is there is no free will at all. God is the author of all evil. Many spend eternity in hell all because God chose that they should go there. They had nothing to do in determining their eternal destination.

There is the Open Theism theory, that God's knowledge is limited. God does not know future decisions of man. This becomes challenging to believe in when there are so many verses about God's foreknowledge, His predestination and God's perfection. He can never be wrong.

There is the middle knowledge theory. But this makes it even harder to see how God knows all things. God knows what men will do and He also knows what men would do in every given circumstance.

All these theories have one thing in common. God can only know what will happen if He decrees it to happen.

Another theory is that we don't know how but God must have been able to foresee our faith before the foundation of the earth. Under my theory God literally foresees our faith.
I have not given my theory a good name yet. I don't like the dream world. It sounds like it is a dream, not real. I think I will call it heart knowledge theory.

Psalm 139 says "God searches me and then He knows me. There are many places where it says that God looks at the heart, which has the same meaning as in Psalm 139. John 2:25 and 6:64 are good examples of this. This is all easily understood when it is referring to living adults that God searches the heart of. But these verses are not really looked at when talking about foreknowledge and predestination. This is because we think that at that time, before the foundation of the earth, we did not exist and so God could not do that. What I am saying is that maybe we did. Maybe we existed.

We know that angels are created beings. The angels or the morning stars sang when the world was created (Job 38:7). Yet nowhere in the Bible does it actually record the creation of the angels. However we can deduce that they were created before the earth's creation because they are not eternal like God is, so they had to have a beginning. Using this same reasoning, it may be possible that the thinking part of us was created before the foundation of the earth.

Acts 17:26 says that God has determined the preappointed times and boundaries of the dwellings of all men. Verse 27 begins with "so that they should seek the Lord." God knew men enough that He could decide the best place He could put them so that they would seek God. Verse 27 continues, "in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him." The sovereign God has to hope that man might grope for Him and find Him. God made man with a free will. God wanted man to seek Him and find Him but He did not make it so that it will be certain. So putting this altogether from this passage. God made man in some way before creation so that He would get to know men, how they would think. He used this knowledge to determine in what year and place and to which parents the person would be born to that would make it the best situation for the person to seek God.

So I seem to be the only one in the entire church history that seems to think if we would have existed in some way before the foundation of the earth, God can look at our hearts and have complete foreknowledge and be able to fairly predestinate man to their eternal destination. This is one way where you can have true free will and God has complete foreknowledge. Under no other theory does God have complete foreknowledge and man has true free will.

In Deuteronomy 18, a test of being a prophet is if he says something will happen and it does not come to pass, then he is a false prophet and he should be killed. God never makes a mistake regarding prophecy. If He did then according to the prophecy test that God imposed, God Himself would have to be killed.

Isaiah 44:6-8 and 46:8-11 are 2 of many passages where God talks about His vast foreknowledge. In 46:10 He says He declares the end from the beginning. Then there is Jeremiah 1:5 where God tells Jeremiah that He knew him before he was conceived.

According to Romans 8:29 God foreknew who would believe and predestinated to salvation those He knew who would believe. In Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 God has a book of life written before the foundation of the world. In John 2:25 Jesus knew all men, what they would do. In John 6:64 Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe him and who would not. He knew who would betray Him. David in Psalm 41:9 foretold that Jesus would be betrayed more than 2000 years before the event.

I could quote many more verses that support God's vast complete foreknowledge. God demands 100% accuracy. This is a major challenge for Open Theism.

There are many challenges with God decreeing everything that man will do. God would have to be the source of all evil. God would be a cruel tyrant for sending millions to hell when there was no way those people could have done anything to avoid this.

I do believe that God can do miracles of nature but He has chosen to do them not too often. It is the same for miracles of free will. God can at times cause or decree a person to do what God wants them to do, although He never causes anyone to believe or not believe in Him. God convicts and draws people to repent, but it is up to man to make a personal decision to believe in God and be saved. God caused Abimelech not to touch Abraham's wife in Genesis 20:6. God caused Joseph's brothers to sell him in slavery so God could use it for good and to bring Israel to Egypt. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would not let the people go until after the plague of the death of the firstborn or the Passover. That was God's purpose in the hardening of his heart, it was not to make Pharaoh not able to believe in God. God already knew that he never would believe in God. God caused David to call a census so that God can punish Israel, not David (2 Samuel 24:1). God used foreign nations (who already hated Israel) as a tool to war against Israel to punish Israel. Later God would punish the tool as well for they already hated Israel. God caused the people to crucify Jesus when the time had fully come, people who long before already wanted to kill Jesus but could not because the time was not yet right.

In this way God can control what happens when God wants to. But He does not control everything all the time.
I do not believe God knows every future decision of man -- if you disagree with this, can you present your reasons why?
It is possible that God may not know when I will scratch my back or even what I will eat and when. God may not care to know and so He did not create with the intent to know this beforehand. On the other hand maybe God would want to know this, and where there is a will there is a way, especially with God. God knows how much hair we have (Matthew 10:30) so God is interested in trivial things.

So I don't know if God knows ALL future decisions of man. However as far as knowing who would believe in God, that God would know before the foundation of the earth. In short, whatever God wants to know before He created the foundation of the earth, God will make a way for Him to know this beforehand.

There are two basic ways how God could make man before the foundation of the earth as far as I can imagine. He could basically have it just like it is today, except instead of everything being real it would be in a dream world. When in the dream world another person is born, then that person begins his dream at that time. When someone dies, their dream world ends. So dreams would last the length of each person's lifetime. The Bible would exist in the dream world but would not contain prophecies for God would still not know the future decisions of men. Then when Jesus comes to judge the earth, everybody's dreams would end. Then God creates the world. Then God could decree that man does exactly what they did in the dream world. Man would have free choice since in the dream world they did everything by free choice. God could know all future decisions of man for He saw all what man did in their dream world. I doubt that this is the way God did this though.
Another way God could get to know man before the foundation of the earth is to in some way interview people in the dream world. Man would first have a learning experience where they get to learn how the created world will be like. Using human time frame this could even be done instantly. God would just put this knowledge in their head rather than have them learn it the way man does today, the slow way.

Today when men make decisions of any kind, they reason in their head what they will do. Sometimes we do this without even consciously knowing that we are reasoning beforehand. Things may come to mind, like maybe I should call Mary or whoever. Then we have to reason if we should do so now or should we do it later. After sitting and working for some time, like on this forum, I may decide to do something else for a change. To make this decision I would have to reason within myself often, should I continue or do something else? Should I get something to drink or maybe later? God knows every thought that goes through your head at all times, your entire lifetime. So He should be able to know beforehand what you will do for He knows you so well. It does not take long and you become very predictable to God. God knows how you think, what causes you to do things and what causes you to change your mind about anything. The latter is important to determine if you will believe and stay or stray from the faith.

God made man. He knows how they function because He made man. He knows how man makes free choices, what determines what he will do. God can make man in such a way that God can know how man thinks and yet man has free choice to think how he wants to.
Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. "Have they not all heard?" Paul asks. Yes, indeed their sound has gone out to all the earth. In Romans 1:19,20 says that God made Himself known to all people. Why do some people believe and others not? Thousands of unbelievers can hear an evangelist preach but only some of them believe and others don't. What caused these unbelievers to even come in the first place to hear the evangelist? God only knows why some believe and why others that heard the same words do not believe. God hears every thought we ever make, so He knows how we think. God created man. God could make man in such a way that man has complete free will and God has complete foreknowledge of what man will do with this free will.

It is easy to see how God can know an adult that is living, how he thinks and everything that he would do in every given situation. A Bible believer also has to believe this because the Bible clearly says that God knows all men, He can see their hearts, He searches man and He then knows man. But man has to exist in some way to make free will choices. Even God cannot search the heart of someone that has never existed. For if God did, then that there could be no true free will.

This is why I am suggesting the theory of God making man before the foundation of the world. In the pre-world man would exist in some way but certainly not with a body yet. God would learn from man, how he thinks. Then God would make it that each man be unconscious and forgets their prehistory until they get born.

This is much better than the God decreeing idea for then man would have no free choice. God would be the author of all evil, a cruel tyrant sending millions to hell when they could do nothing to prevent this. God being outside time is no solution at all for from man's perspective, his whole life is determined before he is born. There are many passages about God looking at the heart, but these verses cannot be used to explain God's foreknowledge and predestination if we did not exist in some way before the foundation of the earth. So that is why my theory is a new way to explain how God's foreknowledge and man's true free will can both be true.
 
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There are a few basic ways that theologians connect free will and predestination.
There is the God is outside time theory. The problem with this theory is that from a human perspective then we have no real free will. Something or someone external made all our choices for us. For theologians this would be God.

There is the God decrees all events theory. The problem with that is there is no free will at all. God is the author of all evil. Many spend eternity in hell all because God chose that they should go there. They had nothing to do in determining their eternal destination.

There is the Open Theism theory, that God's knowledge is limited. God does not know future decisions of man. This becomes challenging to believe in when there are so many verses about God's foreknowledge, His predestination and God's perfection. He can never be wrong.

There is the middle knowledge theory. But this makes it even harder to see how God knows all things. God knows what men will do and He also knows what men would do in every given circumstance.

All these theories have one thing in common. God can only know what will happen if He decrees it to happen.

Another theory is that we don't know how but God must have been able to foresee our faith before the foundation of the earth. Under my theory God literally foresees our faith.
I have not given my theory a good name yet. I don't like the dream world. It sounds like it is a dream, not real. I think I will call it heart knowledge theory.

Psalm 139 says "God searches me and then He knows me. There are many places where it says that God looks at the heart, which has the same meaning as in Psalm 139. John 2:25 and 6:64 are good examples of this. This is all easily understood when it is referring to living adults that God searches the heart of. But these verses are not really looked at when talking about foreknowledge and predestination. This is because we think that at that time, before the foundation of the earth, we did not exist and so God could not do that. What I am saying is that maybe we did. Maybe we existed.

We know that angels are created beings. The angels or the morning stars sang when the world was created (Job 38:7). Yet nowhere in the Bible does it actually record the creation of the angels. However we can deduce that they were created before the earth's creation because they are not eternal like God is, so they had to have a beginning. Using this same reasoning, it may be possible that the thinking part of us was created before the foundation of the earth.

Acts 17:26 says that God has determined the preappointed times and boundaries of the dwellings of all men. Verse 27 begins with "so that they should seek the Lord." God knew men enough that He could decide the best place He could put them so that they would seek God. Verse 27 continues, "in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him." The sovereign God has to hope that man might grope for Him and find Him. God made man with a free will. God wanted man to seek Him and find Him but He did not make it so that it will be certain. So putting this altogether from this passage. God made man in some way before creation so that He would get to know men, how they would think. He used this knowledge to determine in what year and place and to which parents the person would be born to that would make it the best situation for the person to seek God.

So I seem to be the only one in the entire church history that seems to think if we would have existed in some way before the foundation of the earth, God can look at our hearts and have complete foreknowledge and be able to fairly predestinate man to their eternal destination. This is one way where you can have true free will and God has complete foreknowledge. Under no other theory does God have complete foreknowledge and man has true free will.

In Deuteronomy 18, a test of being a prophet is if he says something will happen and it does not come to pass, then he is a false prophet and he should be killed. God never makes a mistake regarding prophecy. If He did then according to the prophecy test that God imposed, God Himself would have to be killed.

Isaiah 44:6-8 and 46:8-11 are 2 of many passages where God talks about His vast foreknowledge. In 46:10 He says He declares the end from the beginning. Then there is Jeremiah 1:5 where God tells Jeremiah that He knew him before he was conceived.

According to Romans 8:29 God foreknew who would believe and predestinated to salvation those He knew who would believe. In Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 God has a book of life written before the foundation of the world. In John 2:25 Jesus knew all men, what they would do. In John 6:64 Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe him and who would not. He knew who would betray Him. David in Psalm 41:9 foretold that Jesus would be betrayed more than 2000 years before the event.

I could quote many more verses that support God's vast complete foreknowledge. God demands 100% accuracy. This is a major challenge for Open Theism.

There are many challenges with God decreeing everything that man will do. God would have to be the source of all evil. God would be a cruel tyrant for sending millions to hell when there was no way those people could have done anything to avoid this.

I do believe that God can do miracles of nature but He has chosen to do them not too often. It is the same for miracles of free will. God can at times cause or decree a person to do what God wants them to do, although He never causes anyone to believe or not believe in Him. God convicts and draws people to repent, but it is up to man to make a personal decision to believe in God and be saved. God caused Abimelech not to touch Abraham's wife in Genesis 20:6. God caused Joseph's brothers to sell him in slavery so God could use it for good and to bring Israel to Egypt. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would not let the people go until after the plague of the death of the firstborn or the Passover. That was God's purpose in the hardening of his heart, it was not to make Pharaoh not able to believe in God. God already knew that he never would believe in God. God caused David to call a census so that God can punish Israel, not David (2 Samuel 24:1). God used foreign nations (who already hated Israel) as a tool to war against Israel to punish Israel. Later God would punish the tool as well for they already hated Israel. God caused the people to crucify Jesus when the time had fully come, people who long before already wanted to kill Jesus but could not because the time was not yet right.

In this way God can control what happens when God wants to. But He does not control everything all the time.

It is possible that God may not know when I will scratch my back or even what I will eat and when. God may not care to know and so He did not create with the intent to know this beforehand. On the other hand maybe God would want to know this, and where there is a will there is a way, especially with God. God knows how much hair we have (Matthew 10:30) so God is interested in trivial things.

So I don't know if God knows ALL future decisions of man. However as far as knowing who would believe in God, that God would know before the foundation of the earth. In short, whatever God wants to know before He created the foundation of the earth, God will make a way for Him to know this beforehand.

There are two basic ways how God could make man before the foundation of the earth as far as I can imagine. He could basically have it just like it is today, except instead of everything being real it would be in a dream world. When in the dream world another person is born, then that person begins his dream at that time. When someone dies, their dream world ends. So dreams would last the length of each person's lifetime. The Bible would exist in the dream world but would not contain prophecies for God would still not know the future decisions of men. Then when Jesus comes to judge the earth, everybody's dreams would end. Then God creates the world. Then God could decree that man does exactly what they did in the dream world. Man would have free choice since in the dream world they did everything by free choice. God could know all future decisions of man for He saw all what man did in their dream world. I doubt that this is the way God did this though.
Another way God could get to know man before the foundation of the earth is to in some way interview people in the dream world. Man would first have a learning experience where they get to learn how the created world will be like. Using human time frame this could even be done instantly. God would just put this knowledge in their head rather than have them learn it the way man does today, the slow way.

Today when men make decisions of any kind, they reason in their head what they will do. Sometimes we do this without even consciously knowing that we are reasoning beforehand. Things may come to mind, like maybe I should call Mary or whoever. Then we have to reason if we should do so now or should we do it later. After sitting and working for some time, like on this forum, I may decide to do something else for a change. To make this decision I would have to reason within myself often, should I continue or do something else? Should I get something to drink or maybe later? God knows every thought that goes through your head at all times, your entire lifetime. So He should be able to know beforehand what you will do for He knows you so well. It does not take long and you become very predictable to God. God knows how you think, what causes you to do things and what causes you to change your mind about anything. The latter is important to determine if you will believe and stay or stray from the faith.

God made man. He knows how they function because He made man. He knows how man makes free choices, what determines what he will do. God can make man in such a way that God can know how man thinks and yet man has free choice to think how he wants to.
Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. "Have they not all heard?" Paul asks. Yes, indeed their sound has gone out to all the earth. In Romans 1:19,20 says that God made Himself known to all people. Why do some people believe and others not? Thousands of unbelievers can hear an evangelist preach but only some of them believe and others don't. What caused these unbelievers to even come in the first place to hear the evangelist? God only knows why some believe and why others that heard the same words do not believe. God hears every thought we ever make, so He knows how we think. God created man. God could make man in such a way that man has complete free will and God has complete foreknowledge of what man will do with this free will.

It is easy to see how God can know an adult that is living, how he thinks and everything that he would do in every given situation. A Bible believer also has to believe this because the Bible clearly says that God knows all men, He can see their hearts, He searches man and He then knows man. But man has to exist in some way to make free will choices. Even God cannot search the heart of someone that has never existed. For if God did, then that there could be no true free will.

This is why I am suggesting the theory of God making man before the foundation of the world. In the pre-world man would exist in some way but certainly not with a body yet. God would learn from man, how he thinks. Then God would make it that each man be unconscious and forgets their prehistory until they get born.

This is much better than the God decreeing idea for then man would have no free choice. God would be the author of all evil, a cruel tyrant sending millions to hell when they could do nothing to prevent this. God being outside time is no solution at all for from man's perspective, his whole life is determined before he is born. There are many passages about God looking at the heart, but these verses cannot be used to explain God's foreknowledge and predestination if we did not exist in some way before the foundation of the earth. So that is why my theory is a new way to explain how God's foreknowledge and man's true free will can both be true.
Hi acure,

Why throw people into the world who are predetermined to go to hell?

If God knows a person perfectly then He knows they will go to hell before sending them into the world.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acts 17:26 says that God has determined the preappointed times and boundaries of the dwellings of all men. Verse 27 begins with "so that they should seek the Lord." God knew men enough that He could decide the best place He could put them so that they would seek God. Verse 27 continues, "in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him." The sovereign God has to hope that man might grope for Him and find Him. God made man with a free will. God wanted man to seek Him and find Him but He did not make it so that it will be certain. So putting this altogether from this passage. God made man in some way before creation so that He would get to know men, how they would think. He used this knowledge to determine in what year and place and to which parents the person would be born to that would make it the best situation for the person to seek God.

Acts of the Apostles 17:26 says,

From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live.​

Paul is addressing philosophers (Acts of the Apostles 17:18). He explains how God is not like an idol but actually cares (Acts of the Apostles 17:24–26). He then says the reason for giving time and place for nations is "so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him". So in a general sense God is sovereign over nations. But notice God does not control people like a puppet-master as He “commands all people everywhere to repent” (Acts of the Apostles 17:30) -- that is, people can choose to repent. For example nearly all these philosophers did not repent even though God commanded it (Acts of the Apostles 17:32–34).

Clearly human freedom has some boundaries (we can't fly), but He does not control human choices. This implies He does not always get what He wants. God wants people to search for Him and find Him (Acts of the Apostles 17:26). But this doesn't always happen. Therefore the future can only be spoken of as a maybe or a probably.

In Deuteronomy 18, a test of being a prophet is if he says something will happen and it does not come to pass, then he is a false prophet and he should be killed. God never makes a mistake regarding prophecy. If He did then according to the prophecy test that God imposed, God Himself would have to be killed.

Deuteronomy 18:22 says,

If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.​

When a prophet speaks for God, God ensures the prophets words comes to pass. God need not foreknow the future to ensure His words in the prophets mouth occur.

Isaiah 44:6-8 and 46:8-11 are 2 of many passages where God talks about His vast foreknowledge. In 46:10 He says He declares the end from the beginning.

I'm not seeing how Isaiah 44:6-11 relates to this discussion other than verse 10 where God explains that He declared the beginning of the universe and He will also declare the end. No foreknowledge required.

Then there is Jeremiah 1:5 where God tells Jeremiah that He knew him before he was conceived.

I answered this already... maybe it was in a different thread... for God to have a purpose for Jeremiah even before he was born is somewhat normal christian life. We can still choose to fulfil our purpose or not. And this purpose is not meticulously controlled, but a target that we head towards in our own way if we so choose.

According to Romans 8:29 God foreknew who would believe and predestinated to salvation those He knew who would believe.

To clarify, when we read Romans we find "knowing" to mean an intimate relationship, not just head knowledge. God foreknew in this sense. "Whom He fore-loved" would be an appropriate translation. Notice that not all received Him (Judas for example) who were fore-known as a race, but some chose to enter into covenant with Him who were outside of the Hebrew race (Rahab). So the fore-loving is for the group of people who choose to be in covenant with Him. The predestining refers to the group and where they will end up. The group who enters into a covenant with Him are predestined to live in glory. This passage says nothing about God choosing who will be saved and who won't be saved on an individual level, only as a group.

In Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 God has a book of life written before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 talks of the plan God had for Jesus since the foundation of the world in the case that someone sinned. This verse says nothing of God knowing who would and would not be saved.

Revelation 17:8 is similar, the clause apo kataboleis "from before the foundation" should be "from the foundation". So it’s not that names are penned pre-birth but in response to the choices people make, then God edits the "book of life" thereafter. The fact that names may be blotted out even after they’ve been included (see Exodus 32:33; Revelation 3:5, Revelation 22:18) shows salvation is not eternally set in stone pre-birth.

In John 2:25 Jesus knew all men, what they would do.

John 2:25 says,

He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.
I think you'll agree this has nothing to do with specific foreknowledge of events or human choices.

In John 6:64 Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe him and who would not. He knew who would betray Him.

John 6:64

...For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him...​

Jesus knew who would betray Him from early on as in Philippians 4:15. This could be either from the moment this person decided to betray Him, or from the time Jesus chose him to be a disciple. Jesus can see a persons heart in the present and so He already knew who was against Him.

David in Psalm 41:9 foretold that Jesus would be betrayed more than 2000 years before the event.

Just because Judas fulfilled scripture does not mean that he was the one who had to fulfill scripture. Notice there is nothing predictive in Psalms 41:9

Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me.
How is this foreknowledge of Judas? David is talking about being betrayed by a close friend. If no one had betrayed Jesus we wouldn't have even noticed this verse as being predictive. The previous verse, Psalms 41:8 talks of "a vile disease" not allowing a person to get up. We don't apply this to Jesus, do we? But because Judas betrayed Jesus, we see this verse in Psalms and apply it.

I could quote many more verses that support God's vast complete foreknowledge. God demands 100% accuracy. This is a major challenge for Open Theism.

Each verse you believe supports God's complete foreknowledge is due to a preconceived filter you are reading with, Open Theism is biblical and simple. God's knowledge is not "limited" because He knows all there is to know.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Thanks. I believe God knows everything in the present because he is omnipresent, not just by extrapolation of the past. If the rock suddenly disappeared he would know of it anyway. But I agree that rocks and physical things are a poor analogy. What we are really talking about is God's perspective on human choices and whether he knows everything in advance.

For example, after the exodus the Israelites come to the promised land and God wants them to take the land then and there. The Israelites however respond in fear and God then curses them to wander the wilderness for 40 years (Numbers 14). The question is did God know this would happen? Was 40 years in the wilderness always his plan. If immediate occupation was his plan and he knew it wouldn't come to pass why would he even bother having a plan that he knew wouldn't happen?
The 40 years is how long it took for the unbelieving generation to die off. Their children entered the promised land.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums