Most of scripture was made up

My faith gets challenged by closed minded religious thinkers. I dont believe in sin. I dont believe alot of the bible. I do believe in bible code. Have you looked into that?

I like wisdom. Read thomas mertons books sometime. People let themselves become to reliant on the self induced programming repeating the bible to themselves. It creates a state of thought that is not rational for some people. It can drive them insane and has. People stop relying on common wisdom of thought and exchange it for confused and blind faith based on the interpretation and unknown intent of past humankind.

ViaCrucis said:

but it only works up to about six thousand years after which all the Carbon14 has decayed into Carbon12.

Click to expand...

The half-life of carbon-14 is 5,730±40 years. After that length of time half the C-14 has decayed into C-12. This dating method is good into the 40,000 to 50,000 year range not just 6000.

JackRT said:

The half-life of carbon-14 is 5,730±40 years. After that length of time half the C-14 has decayed into C-12. This dating method is good into the 40,000 to 50,000 year range not just 6000.

Click to expand...

Ah, my bad.

-CryptoLutheran

llost forevor said:

I
have a great answer why this contradiction exists here, and that is beause all these gospels and the rest of these scriptures didnt even start to pop up and be written untill 130 or so years after christ and the desciples were dead and gone.

Click to expand...

The NT books were all finished by the year 100 (70 years after Jesus), and some much earlier. We know this from manuscript evidence and from early Christian writers, who talked about and quoted the NT books.

Radagast said:

The NT books were all finished by the year 100 (70 years after Jesus), and some much earlier. We know this from manuscript evidence and from early Christian writers, who talked about and quoted the NT books.

Click to expand...

John Dominic Crossan has provided a detailed classification of our sources for the historical Jesus according to the chronological stratification of the traditions. For a brief discussion of each source, including the reasons for its proposed dating, see John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus (HarperCollins, 1991) Appendix 1, pp. 427-50. All dates shown are C.E. (Common Era).


First Stratum [30 to 60 C.E.]

1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians (late 40s)

2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians (winter of 52/53)

3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (winter of 53/54.)

4. Letter of Paul to the Romans (winter of 55/56)

5. Gospel of Thomas I (earliest layer of Thomas, composed in 50s)

6. Egerton Gospel (50s)

7. P. Vienna G. 2325 (50s)

8. P. Oxyrhynchus 1224 (50s)

9. Gospel of the Hebrews (Egypt, 50s)

10. Sayings Gospel Q (50s)

11. Miracles Collection (50s)

12. Apocalyptic Scenario (50s)

13. Cross Gospel (50s)


Second Stratum [60 to 80 C.E.]

14. Gospel of the Egyptians (60s)

15. Secret Gospel of Mark (early 70s)

16. Gospel of Mark (late 70s)

17. P. Oxyrhynchus 840 (?80s)

18. Gospel of Thomas II (later layers, 70s)

19. Dialogue Collection (70s)

20. Signs Gospel, or Book of Signs (70s)

21. Letter to the Colossians (70s)


Third Stratum [80 to 120 C.E.]

22. Gospel of Matthew (90)

23. Gospel of Luke (90s)

24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John (late 90s)

25. First Letter of Clement (late 90s)

26. Epistle of Barnabas (end first century)

27. Didache (other than 1:3b2:1, 16:35) (end first century)

28. Shepherd of Hermas (100)

29. Letter of James (100)

30. Gospel of John I (early second century)

31. Letter of Ignatius, To the Ephesians (110)

32. Letter of Ignatius, To the Magnesians (110)

33. Letter of Ignatius, To the Trallians (110)

34. Letter of Ignatius, To the Romans (110)

35. Letter of Ignatius, To the Philadelphians (110)

36. Letter of Ignatius, To the Smyrneans (110)

37. Letter of Ignatius, To Polycarp (110)

38. First Letter of Peter (112)

39. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 1314 (115)

40. First Letter of John (115)


Fourth Stratum [120 to 150 C.E.]

41. Gospel of John II (after 120)

42. Acts of the Apostles (after 120)

43. Apocryphon of James (before 150)

44. First Letter to Timothy (after 120)

45. Second Letter to Timothy (after 120)

46. Letter to Titus (after 120)

47. Second Letter of Peter (between 125 and 150)

48. Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, 112 (140)

49. Second Letter of Clement (150)

50. Gospel of the Nazoreans (middle second century)

51. Gospel of the Ebionites (middle second century)

52. Didache, 1:3b2:1 (middle second century)

53. Gospel of Peter (middle second century)

JackRT said:

John Dominic Crossan has provided a detailed classification of our sources for the historical Jesus according to the chronological stratification of the traditions

Click to expand...

Those dates are not reliable.

The Gnostic "gospels" are much later (2nd century or later), while many of the NT books are earlier.

Radagast said:

Those dates are not reliable.

The Gnostic "gospels" are much later (2nd century or later), while many of the NT books are earlier.

Click to expand...

The Gospel of Thomas was indeed found in the Nag Hammadi Library and was initially regarded as Gnostic. Most scholars now regard it as no more Gnostic than the Gospel of John and consider it to be very early. I am unaware of anything else in that list of documents that is Gnostic.

JackRT said:

The Gospel of Thomas was indeed found in the Nag Hammadi Library and was initially regarded as Gnostic. Most scholars now regard it as no more Gnostic than the Gospel of John and consider it to be very early.

Click to expand...

Well, no, on both counts.

Radagast said:

Well, no, on both counts.

Click to expand...

You are so intellectual and persuasive.

The Nag Hammadi Library was a Gnostic Library. A big inconsistency in this list is that it places the Biblical letters of 1st Peter, 2nd Peter, & James and the Gospel of John as being written after the letter of Clement of Rome ( 98 AD). Clement makes references to these very works in his letter and he notes that he is not an apostle, "The Apostles have preached to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ from God" ( 1 Clement 19:1 ).

The Gnostic supporters fantasize that the "gospel of thomas" is some sort of an original & earliest which it is not. In its 14th alleged saying of Jesus it says, "If you fast, you will beget yourselves a sin, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits"
this is totally opposite to the Sermon on the Mount ( Matthew 6:1-18 ) not to mention as meaningless babble. How does charity do personal spiritual harm?

Lastly, the Orthodox Study Bible states that the Gospel of Matthew could have been written as early as 50 AD. There is also strong contention that the early church manual: The Didache may be from about 50 AD.

Didache

The Didache lays out the teachings of the Lord regarding alms giving, prayer (quoting the Lord's Prayer right from Matthew), and fasting totally opposite to "thomas".

JackRT said:

The Gospel of Thomas was indeed found in the Nag Hammadi Library and was initially regarded as Gnostic. Most scholars now regard it as no more Gnostic than the Gospel of John and consider it to be very early. I am unaware of anything else in that list of documents that is Gnostic.

Click to expand...

Thomas doesn't contain a Gnostic cosmological narrative as some others do, but anyone who has ever bothered to read Thomas and has a rudimentary grasp of historic Gnosticism can certainly notice that it has the hallmarks of a Gnostic text: It is presented as secret teaching given directly from Jesus to a favored disciple (Thomas), the sayings are vague and cryptic, the meaning of which is to be understood only by the initiated. Sure, no mention of complex cosmological concepts such as Barbelo, archons, or Yaldaboath; but the basic "texture" of Gnosticism is pretty thick in the text.

-CryptoLutheran

JackRT said:

The half-life of carbon-14 is 5,730±40 years. After that length of time half the C-14 has decayed into C-12. This dating method is good into the 40,000 to 50,000 year range not just 6000.

Click to expand...

That's provided that our time-space is not altered. If our earth has ever been moved to another space then back, the "half-life" calculation may not work at all.

Alittlereality said:

My faith gets challenged by closed minded religious thinkers. I dont believe in sin. I dont believe alot of the bible.

Click to expand...

If you don't believe in the Nicene Creed, you shouldn't be responding on this thread, or in "Christians Only" areas of CF.

Alittlereality said:

I do believe in bible code. Have you looked into that?

Click to expand...

They are debunked here.

llost forevor said:

I needed to find someone to talk to about this because I just lost my faith a week ago when I realized I allowed myself all these years to overlook so many things in the bible that now are sooo obviously made up because a perfect god wouldnt allow his own prophets, and servants who are responsible for writing whats in the bible to make so many mistakes, contradictions, and misinformations.

Ill begin by telling you folks I grew up with bible belt(USA) style Baptist bacround, so hardcore preaching, tought the KJV was perfect and infallible because it was Gods word from cover to cover.I dropped out and actually became mormon for 2 years when I was around 22-24yrs old. Then lost faith all together because of that bogus zeitgeist video that hit the internet several years ago. 2 years ago I started believing agian for certain reasons which I dont want to take up much time explaining, but just 5 days ago it all came to an end and for good.

Click to expand...

All of what you've shared here makes it very clear that you were never really a Christian. No one who has a genuine relationship with God, who has His omnipotent, holy Spirit dwelling within them, can simply abandon that relationship like one does a dirty pair of socks. God isn't merely an idea to hold, a worldview to which to adhere, but a Person who all of His children know, love and experience and therefore cannot reject like one would those socks I just mentioned.

You seem not to understand how the Bible came into being and how Christians are able to say today quite confidently that the Scripture we read now is the same Scripture read by first century believers. There are also a number of very good reasons to think the Bible is the divinely-inspired word of God. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel and try to tell you all that is available to you with a quick net search concerning these matters. Here, though, are a few websites I would recommend you check out:

www.reasonablefaith.org
www.crossexamined.org
www.str.org
www.rzim.org

I would also urge you to read: "The Historical Jesus," by Gary Habermas, and the newly updated "Evidence That Demands A Verdict," By Josh and Sean MacDowell.

llost forevor said:

I like to watch documentaries about history, science, spae, ect.. and all it took was watching several videos one night about human cities that keep being found which were about 10,000 yrs old, all in ruins but at least one of these cities were recorded in public record which has survived over the years and now we are fiding some of these cities.

Click to expand...

Here, again, you reveal the absence of any real relationship with God which is, I think, a big part of why you are now an atheist. Those who truly know God, who walk with Him every day, don't walk away from Him after watching a few speculative videos on lost civilizations.

llost forevor said:

OK so here is my first problem, if we are finding ruined cities that are 10,000yrs old with historical records to bak these dates up, then why did Moses write in the book of Genesis that man had been created more receant? I mean aside the dinosaur bones, and other reasons that scientists say the earth had life on it many millions of years back, but we have evidence of 10k yr old human cities that basially debunks Moses's version of how life started on this planet going back generations till were left with adam and eve in the beginning.

Click to expand...

Can't answer your question until you provide more concrete information about the claims of the existence of 10,000-year-old lost cities. Evidence always gets interpreted. And those doing the interpreting do so in accord with various presuppositions (legitimate and not) to which they make the evidence conform. The evidence, then, is not always taken on its own merits and may indicate something quite different than what those doing the interpreting of the evidence declare it indicates.

llost forevor said:

Soooo, even a mere 3-4k yr difference is still proving that Moses did not recieve these words from any God, because if there was a God who was around so long ago he wouldnt have misguided Moses.

Click to expand...

There is simply far too much evidence for the historical/archaeological veracity of Scripture to overturn the Bible entirely on the strength of this perceived discrepancy. I would suggest you read "Seven Days that Divide the World," by Dr. John Lennox. It will show you that the Bible does not always say what modern readers often assume it says.

llost forevor said:

It started to become obvious to me that this was becoming a problem now, because if Moses was to be revealed as a lair or a storyteller instead of a real life hero for the jews and deliverer of the law, then the one god he claimed who created everything, and laid down so many rules/laws on believers never existed.

Click to expand...

Well, you're assuming that you have all of the facts concerning this issue and have properly understood them but I don't think you do. And from your position of relative ignorance in this area you're assuming Moses was a liar or storyteller. Kinda' jumping the gun here...

Even if one discounts all that Moses wrote, it doesn't follow, therefore, that God does not exist. What's more, as a Christian, my faith rests, not upon the genealogies of the Old Testament, but upon the Person of Christ and his resurrection from the dead.

llost forevor said:

Now The problem I have with the new testament is the various verses throughout both the 4 gospels, and another popular book in the NT. You see in the 4 gospels, John the baptist, Jesus, and the desciples would go around teaching that the people just needed to believe in jesus to be saved, have faith in him, or confess him with thier mouths, all these would automatically earn you a place in heaven. But, they also told the people other times that if tey didnt repent, they would in other words go to hell.

Click to expand...

Repenting and believing are not mutually exclusive things. And Jesus and the apostles always preached salvation and repentance.

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Mark 6:12
12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.

Luke 13:2-3
2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

And so on.

llost forevor said:

Now even if you were to say they collectively said to believe and repent, why in the heck did james come along and disagree with all of them about what one must do, or what quality he must have to earn salvation and avoid hell. This is what I mean: Ephes 2:8"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God", then james flips the script: james 2:24 "You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only".

Click to expand...

There is no contradiction here. James is simply pointing out that real, saving faith always results in corresponding behaviour. Jesus said essentially the same thing when he said, "By their fruit you shall know them." An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree; the apples are a natural and inevitable result of a tree being an apple tree. In the same way, a true Christian is not a Christian because he does Christian things, but as a result of being a Christian, he does Christian things. His righteous living is the "proof in the pudding" of his being truly saved but it is not the means whereby he is saved. He bears Christian "fruit" because he is a Christian. This is all James is really saying. And this is not contradicting anything Jesus or the other apostles taught.

llost forevor said:

I have a great answer why this contradiction exists here, and that is beause all these gospels and the rest of these scriptures didnt even start to pop up and be written untill 130 or so years after christ and the desciples were dead and gone.

Click to expand...

Contemporary Bible scholarship shows some of the books of the New Testament are written with 25-30 years of the earthly life of Christ. Your information about the New Testament in this area is outdated and incorrect.

llost forevor said:

And another funny fact to consider, that the romans kept record of things and events even in those days and there were absolutely no public record of any event happening at the time Jesus was supposably on earth. No record of a crucifiction of a popular jew, or any records made about someone going around with supernatural power healing and raising the dead.

Click to expand...

Again, I would urge you to read "The Historical Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas. While there may be no Roman records of Jesus' crucifixion, he is mentioned many times by ancient non-Christian writers.

llost forevor said:

So heres one problem I have now. Ive read the Bible Gen-Rev more than once, and Im familiar with the human geneology it provides between Great Charactors, and does manage to give an account for all generations of humans from adam and eve, all the way to Joseph the husband of mary, and that accounts for close to 5k years, and now being 2017 that makes a total of nearly 7k years.

OK so here is my first problem, if we are finding ruined cities that are 10,000yrs old with historical records to bak these dates up, then why did Moses write in the book of Genesis that man had been created more receant?

Click to expand...

Hi, there is always going to be an issue if you take the Bible too literally. Primarily beware of Ussher's calculations that give a date around 4000 BC. That is the minimum, but ancient genealogies often skip generations that aren't important (for example the genealogy in Matthew 1 skips many names to try and make the significant names fit into a pattern of seven.

llost forevor said:

And not to mention, Moses made a mistake and never gave an explaination for how Cain's wife came into existance. He wrote in Genesis that adam and eve only gave birth to two sons, cain and abel, no daughters, and no other children.

Click to expand...

Actually there was a third brother, Seth born after Abel died. As for not mentioning where the wives come from, it wasn't deemed important to Moses, so it wasn't a mistake, so much as an omission.

llost forevor said:

Now on to the new testament... You see in the 4 gospels, John the baptist, Jesus, and the desciples would go around teaching that the people just needed to believe in jesus to be saved, have faith in him, or confess him with thier mouths, all these would automatically earn you a place in heaven. But, they also told the people other times that if tey didnt repent, they would in other words go to hell.

Click to expand...

It is not quite as simple as all that. In fact that is a selective reading. Firstly there is no 'automatically earn[ing]' of a place in heaven and there are warning agains thinking that (the parable of the Sheep and the Goats for example). Nor does hell actually get a mention by Jesus as the alternative to repentance. That comes later in the NT and is more inferred than direct.

llost forevor said:

The doctrine of salvation for us would be the most important, because we rely on it so we know how to avoid eternal destruction in hell but live with god in heaven. Now how the heck are you suppoe to know whether or not works matter when one passage says "works" matter, and one says it doesnt. James starting in 2:14 to the end of the chapter goes at it from all angles to try and explain to people that they need to get it out of thier heads that faith and believing alone does no good. Jesus says it can, but james says it cant.

Click to expand...

Actually there is no contradiction at all. A person is not saved by doing works, but if they are saved then works will come forth from them. In essence the Christian does good things BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved.

llost forevor said:

I have a great answer why this contradiction exists here, and that is beause all these gospels and the rest of these scriptures didnt even start to pop up and be written untill 130 or so years after christ and the desciples were dead and gone.

Click to expand...

Not sure where you get your information from, but it is wrong or out of date. There is a fragment of John's gospel positively dated to circa 110 AD, around 80 years later and unless it is the original it indicates that the document was around long enough to be copied. It is also the last of the gospels to be written so the others were all written well before 80 years after Jesus' death. Also Clement of Rome quotes from the gospels circa AD95, so that dates them at most 65 years after.

And then there is Paul's writings which had to have been written in the period AD50-AD63 (20-30 years after Jesus).

llost forevor said:

And another funny fact to consider, that the romans kept record of things and events even in those days and there were absolutely no public record of any event happening at the time Jesus was supposably on earth. No record of a crucifiction of a popular jew, or any records made about someone going around with supernatural power healing and raising the dead.

Click to expand...

They wrote things down on perishable parchment and didn't consider it important enough to store long term. In Rome lots of records exist, in other places few and often we only know about them because someone wrote to someone else in Rome (e.g. Tacitus, Pliny). The absence is only a factor if we knew we had complete records, but we know that we don't (there are plenty of other 'gaps' in the everyday life in Palestine as well as everywhere else so it is not surprising that there are gaps for Jesus' time on Earth).

Josephus a Roman born a Jew writes about Jesus in his books.