Photography (Weddings) Business and Homosexual Agenda

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My daughter recently established a Photography business. She has worked with another person in this business for about a year. Before that it has been her plans to eventually have her own business. She is a devout Christian who understands God's Word to say that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle but rather a sinful one as many other things are. She believes in loving the sinner but NOT their sin including not accepting it. I am concerned for her as it is obvious how the LGtB group seeks out opportunities to attack Christian businesses which they can trap the owners into saying things of which they attempt to further their agenda in courts and destroy the business. She needs the money for the family. Any EXPERIENCED advice about how to respond to these people to avoid misery? Our area is Muskegon Michigan.
Some people in my church are in a similar situation and would not be involved in a same sex wedding. Although relatively few businesses will be prosecuted, all businesses with a religious objection to ssm live under this threat

One approach is to prepare a written statement saying in very clear language what the Bible says about homosexuality. Then state that because of these beliefs you recommend they seek a provider who has a more sympathetic understanding of their needs and can provide the high quality service they require. And then list several nearby alternative providers.

If the customers are genuine, that will solve the problem, but if they are activists, there really are few options - lying is definitely not an option for a Christian.

Let's hope & pray that SCOTUS will give a favorable judgment on Jack Phillip's case next month.
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Quite simple. Just charge alot more for weddings you prefer not to do. If they agree then just bite your lip and do it, your getting paid well.

Unless your like me and would throw up seeing men kiss and squirm being in a room full of effeminate' and butches.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
One of the big questions is, considering what an 'orientation' is supposed to be, how can pedophilia not be considered a 'sexual orientation.' A framework of laws, including judicial precedent, is being set where it is going to be very hard to argue, legally, against the idea of discrimination against someone with 'pedophile orientation' working in a Kindergarten. This type of discrimination should definitely be legal. Those with known 'zoophile orientation' should be subject to legal discrimination when it comes to working in raising the livestock used for producing the meat we eat, either.

Logically, you're right. But our laws are not based on logic. They are based on the opinion of the legislators and the people at large. People are fine with heterosexual sex, obviously, and are even fine with it out of wedlock. People did not want to be "trapped" in marriages, as of old. If Olde England had our divorce laws, Henry VIII need not have troubled himself with Reformations and decapitations. He would have tossed out the one and got the next in a couple of weeks.

The society has reached the stage where the bulk of people no longer care who beds whom, male or female (human is still a requirement, for now), as long as both humans are of age and give consent. And in general society cares but doesn't much punish two humans, of whatever sex, who are below the age of consent as long as both are.

And so we have gay "marriage", and we have very little virginity by the time college is through, and we have easy and frequent divorce. These are all things that society, in its state of emotional tolerance, is comfortable with.

Society still has a fetish about the number TWO, however. Polygamy was practiced all the way back to ancient times in virtually every society, and is widely practiced today in the Middle East and Africa. Our society is not emotionally willing to accept what we collectively see as barbaric. There are lots of "reasons" given, but what it comes down to is "We don't like it, and we have the power to say no, so no."

The same is true a fortiori for pedophilia. Sure, many pedophiles have no control over their feelings. They want what they want and they can't "help" it. Their only choice in the matter is whether to act on those feelings. And as we know from heterosexual and the broadly expanded homosexual experience of the population, and the experience with serial divorces, and the experience with gradually legalizing marijuana, and the drive to pan-obesity in the population, people are very poor at impulse control. Pedophiles "can't help it" without exercising a degree of self-control that our whole society has found itself unable to exercise. We've changed the divorce laws, the marriage laws regarding gays, and the drug laws to accomodate what "we" want as a public, and what we are no longer willing to subject ourselves, as a collective, to punishment for doing.

Obesity is its own punishment. Nobody wants to be fat, it's not illegal, and it's brutally hard for people to avoid it, and brutally hard for those who are to lose it and stay slim. Because it is unpleasant to look at obese people, as a society we still vilify being fat EVEN THOUGH well over half the population is.

Pedophiles are no different in any of these respects from heterosexuals, multiple divorcers, homosexuals, pot users and the fat. So LOGICALLY we would make allowances for their wants - "they can't help it", and we understand it.

But, simply put, we hate what they do. We hate pedophilia, we hate polygamy, we hate incest, we hate heroin use, and we hate inappropriate behavior with animals. It DOESN'T MATTER that, logically, these impulses are no different from the legal ones, and that, "by the same logic" we would be on the path to legalizing all such impulses. The fact remains: law is not determined by logic or by a computer. It is decided upon by people, and it is based on human emotions. What we want or like, or can tolerate, we legalize. What we despise, we outlaw and punish. It doesn't matter that the people we punish "can't help it". If they can't help it, then they are rabid dogs who need to be removed from society, and the law does that for us.

That it's "unfair" to those people that THEIR weakness is punished while, say, the gays, or the divorcees, or the pot users, or the serial fornicators, are not, is irrelevant, really. Sure it's unfair. So what? It ain't about fairness, it's about power.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,664
18,548
Orlando, Florida
✟1,261,264.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't see anything wrong with being a photographer at a wedding. A wedding photographer is there to render a service, they are not actually solemnizing the wedding.
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why? Civil rights means to give equal treatment to all people wanting to be serviced by a public business. If I refuse to seat a person based on their skin color, their cultural history, their religious beliefs, and their sex....it is against the law. If what you are doing doesn't cause you to sacrifice your individual rights, then a person in business shouldn't be passing judgement.

To make a cake, provide rental chairs, taking pictures or whatever of a legal gay marriage does not mean you have to celebrate or condone homosexuality. It means you simply bake a cake to the customer's specifications, set up chairs, or take pictures of the event.
To use hyperbole to argue against your point:" A Jewish bakery is asked to bake a cake for a Nazi meeting, complete with swastikas and, in nice "hand script", "Kill the Jews" under the swastika. In a free country they should have the right to decline. If they are forced to do it or lose their business, that is textbook slavery.

I'm against slavery.
 
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
60
Kentucky
✟44,542.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ina free country try you have the right to choose sometimes. Flip your example around - the Klansmen who don’t want to serve blacks in their restaurant, or the Nazis or Muslims who want to refuse Jews service in their motel. Or the company that refuses to hire blacks or women.
I have no problem with any of the above, unless the business is a monopoly
It’s a free country, but businesses are not free to do any of those things by law. By entering into commerce, if they want the privilege of earning their living in this economy, they have to respect the basic rules.
I disagree. I believe those basic rules are a violation of the civil rights of the business owners and employees. All income is derived either from business or employment by the government. People need income in this country to stay alive. What you are suggesting is people should give up their constitutionally protected rights if they want to stay alive.

I would give up one aspect: If a business is a monopoly or enjoys a "monopoly-like" presence (e.g. wal-mart in a small town), it loses that right. But when potential customers can walk across the street to a competing business that would love their business or to a business like wal-mart, there is no need to "protect" any right they have.

And the thing about the constitution is that, though it prohibits any kind of discrimination, it is in reference to the government. i.e. The GOVERNMENT can not discriminate. The rest of us absolutely have the right to. Any portion of the civil rights act that violates that simple principle is unconstitutional on the face of it.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,664
18,548
Orlando, Florida
✟1,261,264.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
My religion teaches me to serve my neighbor, not to judge them. By refusing to help a potential gay couple at their wedding, you would be passing judgment on them. They will not be making these fine distinctions between sin and sinner. They will just see you making their lives more difficult for strange and bizarre reasons. Not a good way to show the love of Jesus.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: CitizenD
Upvote 0

RogerRoger

Active Member
Jun 21, 2017
118
69
36
Halifax
✟10,402.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
But, simply put, we hate what they do. We hate pedophilia, we hate polygamy, we hate incest, we hate heroin use, and we hate inappropriate behavior with animals. It DOESN'T MATTER that, logically, these impulses are no different from the legal ones, and that, "by the same logic" we would be on the path to legalizing all such impulses. The fact remains: law is not determined by logic or by a computer. It is decided upon by people, and it is based on human emotions. What we want or like, or can tolerate, we legalize. What we despise, we outlaw and punish. It doesn't matter that the people we punish "can't help it". If they can't help it, then they are rabid dogs who need to be removed from society, and the law does that for us.

That it's "unfair" to those people that THEIR weakness is punished while, say, the gays, or the divorcees, or the pot users, or the serial fornicators, are not, is irrelevant, really. Sure it's unfair. So what? It ain't about fairness, it's about power.

You've overlooked the most important part regarding pedophilia - it harms another person. The thought that society will eventually acquiesce doesn't follow from your comparison to obesity, for example, because obesity doesn't, by definition, require harming another person (let alone someone underage who cannot consent).

It may be similar to those others in that they are innate, but there is a huge difference when it comes to harm (or, at least how society and the law view harm)
 
Upvote 0

Monksailor

Adopted child of God.
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2017
1,487
909
Port town on west (tan sands) shore line of MI
Visit site
✟187,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Perhaps it's even more accurate to say that if she doesn't want to interact with people she disapproves of, then any business is the wrong business.

Being professional is all about dealing with people you might not necessarily approve of.
You make a very BIG mistake even though I made a very clear and easy explanation in the opening post describing the situation. So many people are so quick to erroneously assume that a person hates another if they don't agree with their lifestyle. Why is that? Maybe that is the way that they are and so they also assume that others are like them. It is such an illogical premise bordering upon hostility. I was taught at a very young age that one is the first three letters of assume when they do it. My daughter practices loving the sinner and hating the sin behavior. That is a VERY clear distinction I have already discussed here. How come certain people cannot comprehend it? Did you know that tolerance is NOT acceptance? By the very meaning of the word, to tolerate implies that one is appalled by or disagrees with some thing and in no way is accepting of it.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You've overlooked the most important part regarding pedophilia - it harms another person. The thought that society will eventually acquiesce doesn't follow from your comparison to obesity, for example, because obesity doesn't, by definition, require harming another person (let alone someone underage who cannot consent).

It may be similar to those others in that they are innate, but there is a huge difference when it comes to harm (or, at least how society and the law view harm)

Obesity harms a lot of people. Heart attacks, cancer, diabetes - all of those diseases that follow from obesity - impose immense medical costs upon society, which are borne by the taxpayers.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

salt-n-light

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 8, 2017
2,607
2,526
32
Rosedale
✟165,859.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
You make a very BIG mistake even though I made a very clear and easy explanation in the opening post describing the situation. So many people are so quick to erroneously assume that a person hates another if they don't agree with their lifestyle. Why is that? Maybe that is the way that they are and so they also assume that others are like them. It is such an illogical premise bordering upon hostility. I was taught at a very young age that one is the first three letters of assume when they do it. My daughter practices loving the sinner and hating the sin behavior. That is a VERY clear distinction I have already discussed here. How come certain people cannot comprehend it? Did you know that tolerance is NOT acceptance? By the very meaning of the word, to tolerate implies that one is appalled by or disagrees with some thing and in no way is accepting of it.

Welcome to postmodernism, where " I disagree" means " I hate you", and "that's wrong" is a condemnation. Unless of course, its in alignment of how the person thinks how people should function in their world, then you're basically family.
 
Upvote 0

RogerRoger

Active Member
Jun 21, 2017
118
69
36
Halifax
✟10,402.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Obesity harms a lot of people. Heart attacks, cancer, diabetes - all of those diseases that follow from obesity - impose immense medical costs upon society, which are borne by the taxpayers.

But pedophilia necessarily causes harm to other people, and to a very precious group of people at that. The actions themselves directly cause harm.

Obesity, smoking, and others all have a societal effect, but we don't judge those consequences in the same way that we view something like pedophilia. We can't equate a direct action and an indirect action. This is a categorical difference that matters, both in law, and in our day to day lives.

The societal burden that you describe regarding obesity - medical costs - is not simply the result of obesity. It is also the result of societal norms - the idea that we provide and subsidize care for those who are ill. The "harm" here is more complex, less direct, and also not physical in nature.

With pedophilia, this is not the case. The harm is enacted directly on the child. Sure, there may be other, more indirect harms (medical costs may fit here too), but there is a direct, visceral connection here that doesn't exist when we talk about obesity.

This distinction is important in a lot of political philosophy writings. JS Mill is someone who comes to mind, who was a big supporter of total personal freedom, provided that one's actions don't directly harm others (I'm simplifying here). Here's a quote from "On Liberty"

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."
He's not talking about medical costs. He's not even necessarily talking about things that cause unwanted consequences to others in general (with some exceptions, like when one is responsible for/acting upon dependents).
 
Upvote 0

Monksailor

Adopted child of God.
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2017
1,487
909
Port town on west (tan sands) shore line of MI
Visit site
✟187,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Some people in my church are in a similar situation and would not be involved in a same sex wedding. Although relatively few businesses will be prosecuted, all businesses with a religious objection to ssm live under this threat

One approach is to prepare a written statement saying in very clear language what the Bible says about homosexuality. Then state that because of these beliefs you recommend they seek a provider who has a more sympathetic understanding of their needs and can provide the high quality service they require. And then list several nearby alternative providers.

If the customers are genuine, that will solve the problem, but if they are activists, there really are few options - lying is definitely not an option for a Christian.

Let's hope & pray that SCOTUS will give a favorable judgment on Jack Phillip's case next month.
FYI: Even if one in a hundred is sued the threat is too great to risk. It can mean a lot of significant trouble no one wants to go through. You seem unaware of the risks at any significant degree. For example, in many areas if you simply state what you suggest above you can be legally fined thousands of dollars per day and imprisoned for months , for ex. in Phoenix (and many other cities across our nation): "In other words, if explaining your side of the argument implies you object to their acts or lifestyle – you’ll just have to be quiet, and let their arguments go unanswered. If you don’t – if you, for instance, try to explain why you don’t believe in same-sex unions – you risk a fine of up to $2,500, and six months in jail for every day you keep violating the ordinance." Then the business is not only subject to a possible business bankruptcy but also a personal/family bankruptcy lawsuit even if they have a LLC. Quoted from: Phoenix Law Gives Officials Right to Decide What Is and Isn’t Artistically Acceptable
 
Upvote 0

creslaw

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2015
1,137
1,183
78
✟171,835.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
FYI: Even if one in a hundred is sued the threat is too great to risk. It can mean a lot of significant trouble no one wants to go through. You seem unaware of the risks at any significant degree. For example, in many areas if you simply state what you suggest above you can be legally fined thousands of dollars per day and imprisoned for months , for ex. in Phoenix (and many other cities across our nation): "In other words, if explaining your side of the argument implies you object to their acts or lifestyle – you’ll just have to be quiet, and let their arguments go unanswered. If you don’t – if you, for instance, try to explain why you don’t believe in same-sex unions – you risk a fine of up to $2,500, and six months in jail for every day you keep violating the ordinance." Then the business is not only subject to a possible business bankruptcy but also a personal/family bankruptcy lawsuit even if they have a LLC. Quoted from: Phoenix Law Gives Officials Right to Decide What Is and Isn’t Artistically Acceptable
My understanding is that you can express your opinion as long as you do not refuse service. If you refuse service then try to explain why, they've got you.

Living with this threat every day will be too much for some so they will shut up shop. It is a dark world we live in these days.

The Jack Phillips case before SCOTUS begins Dec 5
Get the Facts about Jack (Phillips, That is): The Case of Masterpiece Cakeshop
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Monksailor

Adopted child of God.
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2017
1,487
909
Port town on west (tan sands) shore line of MI
Visit site
✟187,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Welcome to postmodernism, where " I disagree" means " I hate you", and "that's wrong" is a condemnation. Unless of course, its in alignment of how the person thinks how people should function in their world, then you're basically family.
Well, that is a mental illness and it makes no logical or rational sense. I will hold on to logic and rationale and refuse to recognize craziness as anything but just that; go ahead and disallow me from being "family." I am honored.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: salt-n-light
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,857
✟256,002.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
My daughter recently established a Photography business. She has worked with another person in this business for about a year. Before that it has been her plans to eventually have her own business. She is a devout Christian who understands God's Word to say that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle but rather a sinful one as many other things are. She believes in loving the sinner but NOT their sin including not accepting it. I am concerned for her as it is obvious how the LGtB group seeks out opportunities to attack Christian businesses which they can trap the owners into saying things of which they attempt to further their agenda in courts and destroy the business. She needs the money for the family. Any EXPERIENCED advice about how to respond to these people to avoid misery? Our area is Muskegon Michigan.

Jesus said some words that apply to this situation.

Matt 5:39-41
39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
NASU

To follow these words of Christ in that situation, take GREAT pictures, throw in some freebies.
 
Upvote 0

CitizenD

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2017
915
1,431
44
San Francisco
✟100,555.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You make a very BIG mistake even though I made a very clear and easy explanation in the opening post describing the situation. So many people are so quick to erroneously assume that a person hates another if they don't agree with their lifestyle. Why is that? Maybe that is the way that they are and so they also assume that others are like them. It is such an illogical premise bordering upon hostility. I was taught at a very young age that one is the first three letters of assume when they do it. My daughter practices loving the sinner and hating the sin behavior. That is a VERY clear distinction I have already discussed here. How come certain people cannot comprehend it? Did you know that tolerance is NOT acceptance? By the very meaning of the word, to tolerate implies that one is appalled by or disagrees with some thing and in no way is accepting of it.
I'm almost 100% sure you accidentally clicked "reply" to my post.
 
Upvote 0

Zoii

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
5,811
3,982
23
Australia
✟103,785.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
In my experience communication is all important. A fish symbol outside a business communicates well. And speaking to people in a helpful way is very important. Explaining that you want them to have people there that support them n not people who disapprove, and then recommend someone you know is a quality photographer. Then everyone is happy... your daughter, the guy who gets a referral and the couple getting married. But you dont get reproaching and negative.... instead helpful ideas... make the phone call for them to hook them up..... be helpful..... come up with great ideas... wish them well .... not the condescending youre a sinner type
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip_B
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AYINDE F

Member
Nov 17, 2017
16
5
113
OGBOMOSO
✟15,798.00
Country
Nigeria
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My daughter recently established a Photography business. She has worked with another person in this business for about a year. Before that it has been her plans to eventually have her own business. She is a devout Christian who understands God's Word to say that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle but rather a sinful one as many other things are. She believes in loving the sinner but NOT their sin including not accepting it. I am concerned for her as it is obvious how the LGtB group seeks out opportunities to attack Christian businesses which they can trap the owners into saying things of which they attempt to further their agenda in courts and destroy the business. She needs the money for the family. Any EXPERIENCED advice about how to respond to these people to avoid misery? Our area is Muskegon Michigan.
PRAYER IS THE KEY/2× PRAYER IS THE MASTER KEY.
JESUS STARTED WITH PRAYER ON THE MOUNTAIN (Matthew 4), AND ENDED WITH PRAYER IN THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE (Mark 14:32). PRAY TO GOD AND HE WILL SURPRISE YOU! GOD BLESS YOU.
I ALSO PRAY THAT GOD WILL INTERVENE INTO THE MATTER AND FIGHT FOR THE RIGHTEOUS.
 
Upvote 0