Did Cain and Abel Keep the Torah or Sabbath?

Mercymessianicjudiasm

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That's just you making stuff up. It's not in the text.
How was Jethro a high priest, through which lineage? Why does the Sabbath begin in the evening or cool of the day (Gen 3:8)? How did Moses know to offer sacrifice during the Sabbath? Did you know even the animals were to rest during the Sabbath, much like the rainbow in the cloud is a sign to all livings not just Noahs family? Why did the animals follow Noah into the ark of the covenant? Does YHWH command the animals to rest during the Sabbath?
 
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Mercymessianicjudiasm

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That's just you making stuff up. It's not in the text.
Did you know the land was suppose to "rest" in the seventh year? Lev 25:4 So how is the Sabbath, not considered a law of nature? How did Noah know which animals were ceremonially clean or UNCLEAN? Why and/or how did Noah build the altar unto the L-rd (YHWH).
 
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BukiRob

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I never said there was no sin before Sinai. There was Natural Law before there was Mosaic Law. I'm not sure why this is so difficult. There were all sorts of sin in Noah's day -- sin being the breaking of Natural Law. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't torture little kids. Natural Law. Nothing about keeping the Sabbath in Natural Law.
Sabbath existed LONG BEFORE the Mosaic law. Its found in Bereshit.

The fact is we do not know what existed before the Mosaic Law because we are not told. To leap to conclusions about this is foolishness.

We are told that Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

That is a fairly clear indication that something MORE than just "natural law." was going on here.

Torah Before Mount Sinai

The Midrash asserts that although they lived long before the Torah was given to us at Mount Sinai, our forefathers kept all the mitzvot (Divine commandments) that the Torah would command their descendants in the future. This idea is reiterated by Chazal in many other places.[1]


[1] See e.g. Yoma 28b; Rashi to Bereshit (Genesis) 26:5; Rashi to Bereshit (Genesis) 32:5 -- "Yaakov said, 'I dwelt by Lavan, yet I kept all of the 613 Mitzvot'"
 
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Open Heart

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Sabbath existed LONG BEFORE the Mosaic law. Its found in Bereshit.

The fact is we do not know what existed before the Mosaic Law because we are not told. To leap to conclusions about this is foolishness.
You have nothing upon which to build an argument. There is simply nothing in the text.
 
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Open Heart

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Did you know the land was suppose to "rest" in the seventh year? Lev 25:4 So how is the Sabbath, not considered a law of nature? How did Noah know which animals were ceremonially clean or UNCLEAN? Why and/or how did Noah build the altar unto the L-rd (YHWH).
I am a Messianic Jew. I keep the Torah. I'm very familiar with the laws. I'm also familiar with the Noahide laws. There is not a shred of evidence in the Torah that Natural/Noahide law includes keeping the Shabbat.
 
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Open Heart

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How was Jethro a high priest, through which lineage? Why does the Sabbath begin in the evening or cool of the day (Gen 3:8)? How did Moses know to offer sacrifice during the Sabbath? Did you know even the animals were to rest during the Sabbath, much like the rainbow in the cloud is a sign to all livings not just Noahs family? Why did the animals follow Noah into the ark of the covenant? Does YHWH command the animals to rest during the Sabbath?
You are conflating all sorts of stuff, my friend. Not all rest refers to the Sabbath. There is nothing in the flood story that refers to the Sabbath. Noah's ark was not the ark of the covenant.
 
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pinacled

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I am a Messianic Jew. I keep the Torah. I'm very familiar with the laws. I'm also familiar with the Noahide laws. There is not a shred of evidence in the Torah that Natural/Noahide law includes keeping the Shabbat.
And are the Noah hide laws in keeping with lemoels instruction.
Or is cain considered a mark of a covenant
 
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Open Heart

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... And Yet Again ...
Sabbath existed LONG BEFORE the Mosaic law. Its found in Bereshit.
[1] See e.g. Yoma 28b; Rashi to Bereshit (Genesis) 26:5; Rashi to Bereshit (Genesis) 32:5 -- "Yaakov said, 'I dwelt by Lavan, yet I kept all of the 613 Mitzvot'"​
Bereshit/Genesis 32:5
I have cattle and donkeys, sheep and goats, male and female servants. Now I am sending this message to my lord, that I may find favor in your eyes.'"

No where in Genesis does it use the number 613.
 
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danny ski

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It seems quite plausible that Adam would have been given an awareness of the significance of every 7th day as a "Day of Rest" and also both Abel and Cain that a "Day of Rest" was made for man from the Get Go. It may have been every 7th Day that the LORD walked in the cool of the day at the time of the evening breeze with Adam and his wife. Then again this awareness of the "7th Day of Rest" became even more meaningful after they left the Garden of Eden having to work by the sweat of their brow until they returned to the ground; "for dust you are and to dust you will return" (Genesis 3:19).

The-Lord-Of-The-Sabbath.jpg

Is it not possible that Abel honored the 7th Day of Rest unto the Almighty Creator; while Cain was half-hearted in his observance. And in time, it was the nature of fallen mankind to dishonor the 7th Day of Rest to the extent that ...

Bereshit 6:5-8 (Chabad Tanach ~ CJB ~ doesn't use all CAPS for YHVH)
5 And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time. הוַיַּ֣רְא יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֥י רַבָּ֛ה רָעַ֥ת הָֽאָדָ֖ם בָּאָ֑רֶץ וְכָל־יֵ֨צֶר֙ מַחְשְׁבֹ֣ת לִבּ֔וֹ רַ֥ק רַ֖ע כָּל־הַיּֽוֹם:
6 And the Lord regretted that He had made man upon the earth, and He became grieved in His heart. ווַיִּנָּ֣חֶם יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּֽי־עָשָׂ֥ה אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֖ם בָּאָ֑רֶץ וַיִּתְעַצֵּ֖ב אֶל־לִבּֽוֹ:
7 And the Lord said, "I will blot out man, whom I created, from upon the face of the earth, from man to cattle to creeping thing, to the fowl of the heavens, for I regret that I made them." זוַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֗ה אֶמְחֶ֨ה אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֤ם אֲשֶׁר־בָּרָ֨אתִי֙ מֵעַל֨ פְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֲדָמָ֔ה מֵֽאָדָם֙ עַד־בְּהֵמָ֔ה עַד־רֶ֖מֶשׂ וְעַד־ע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם כִּ֥י נִחַ֖מְתִּי כִּ֥י עֲשִׂיתִֽם:
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. חוְנֹ֕חַ מָ֥צָא חֵ֖ן בְּעֵינֵ֥י יְהֹוָֽה:

Perhaps one reason Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD is that he and his family rested every 7th Day before and during the building of the Ark. Even though due to mankind's evil tendencies they still may have had some awareness of a 7th Day of Rest (according to the then reckoning of time), but they no longer observed it unto the LORD, but instead wasted the day in wanton pleasure.
Careful, else you validate the authority of the Oral Torah:) In any case, it's the old dilemma. Did Abraham know the Torah? The text supports the notion, yet it is also very silent on the specifics. As for Noah, he was righteous in his generation BEFORE he embarked on his ship building project. Which means that he treated his fellow men well and worshipped the right Gd. And maybe even he rested one day per week. It's plausible as people tend to imitate their deities.
 
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Mercymessianicjudiasm

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I am a Messianic Jew. I keep the Torah. I'm very familiar with the laws. I'm also familiar with the Noahide laws. There is not a shred of evidence in the Torah that Natural/Noahide law includes keeping the Shabbat.
According to Torah how does Shabbat begin Friday evening?
 
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Mercymessianicjudiasm

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Bereshit/Genesis 32:5
I have cattle and donkeys, sheep and goats, male and female servants. Now I am sending this message to my lord, that I may find favor in your eyes.'"

No where in Genesis does it use the number 613.
After YHWH finished all of his good work within six days of "evening and morning" he rested on the seventh day, he blessed it and hallowed it. Perhaps Abraham who prayed and offered sacrifice at the altar, worshipped during the Sabbath. YHWH would visit Adam in the evening or afternoon. Maybe this was the common time for YHWH appearance or presence.
 
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Mercymessianicjudiasm

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You are conflating all sorts of stuff, my friend. Not all rest refers to the Sabbath. There is nothing in the flood story that refers to the Sabbath. Noah's ark was not the ark of the covenant.
Shabbat means "rest" , the Sabbath commandment is a law or rule for nature, as a farmer must allow the land to rest in the seventh year. I thought you would be honest and acknowledge that Shabbat affects nature.
 
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Mercymessianicjudiasm

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I am a Messianic Jew. I keep the Torah. I'm very familiar with the laws. I'm also familiar with the Noahide laws. There is not a shred of evidence in the Torah that Natural/Noahide law includes keeping the Shabbat.
Just because you do not have "eyes to perceive" or "ears to listen", does not mean Isaiah is not preaching the truth to you while his lips have been burned by the "burning coal" or tongs from the altar. Do not underestimate the faith of the silent patriarchs.
 
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Open Heart

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After YHWH finished all of his good work within six days of "evening and morning" he rested on the seventh day, he blessed it and hallowed it. Perhaps Abraham who prayed and offered sacrifice at the altar, worshipped during the Sabbath. YHWH would visit Adam in the evening or afternoon. Maybe this was the common time for YHWH appearance or presence.
Perhaps Abraham prayed while standing on his head. However, Scripture doesn't say it, so it is best not to suggest it as doctrine.
 
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Open Heart

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Shabbat means "rest" , the Sabbath commandment is a law or rule for nature, as a farmer must allow the land to rest in the seventh year. I thought you would be honest and acknowledge that Shabbat affects nature.
The Shabbat is not a natural rest, such as when we sleep or take a breather. It is a deliberate conscious choice of human beings to stop our labors and the labors of those that work for us (including our animals) on the seventh day to remember the Exodus.
 
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Open Heart

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"And there was evening and there was morning, the first day." In the verse, evening precedes morning, meaning that the day begins in the evening. This is the only interpretation that Israel has ever had of this verse, and is why Judaism has always begun Shabbat at Sunset (lighting candles a bit before so that we have time for error).
 
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