Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

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BobRyan

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So what? No one said they didn't meet on the 7th day! They met EVERY day. You are saying they didn't meet on Sunday, the Scriptures say yes they did. So, your comment makes no sense.

It does when someone take a one-time-reference like Acts 20:7 as if that means "they did this every week"

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.


It would mean they were celebrating passover "every day of every week" since in Acts 2 for a short time they met every day.

Actually, it was not the 7th day at all, it was what the Scripture said it was, the L-RD'S DAY. Not Sabbath.

No text says "Lord's Day not Sabbath" as we both know.
No text says "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" as we both know.
But we do have "the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28....as we both know.
And we have "Sabbath - the Holy Day of the Lord" Isaiah 58:13 -- as we can all see.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
The Bible never calls week-day-1 the "Lord's Day" and we all know it. If you had such a text you would have quoted it by now.

LOL. Bob, what you believe is your choice.

An actual Bible text that made your case would have served you well just then.

Have one??

What we know is the Scriptures tell us that Yeshua was resurrected on the first day of the week, and THIS day is called the L-rd's Day. John was in the spirit on the L-rd's Day.

What we know is that no text calls week-day-1 the Lord's Day.
What we know is that no text says "from week-day-1 to week-day-1" they met for worship.
No text says "they met every week-day-1" for Gospel preaching.

But we do have them meeting "every Sabbath" for Gospel preaching Acts 18:4
and we do have "Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath" gospel preaching in Acts 17:4


No text says "Lord's Day not Sabbath" as we both know.
No text says "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" as we both know.
But we do have "the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28....as we both know.
And we have "Sabbath - the Holy Day of the Lord" Isaiah 58:13 -- as we can all see.
 
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FreeAtLast

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It does when someone take a one-time-reference like Acts 20:7 as if that means "they did this every week"

They met DAILY. That means EVERY DAY :)

Acts 2:46
With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart,

Acts 5:42
And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus.

So, DAILY, means DAILY. Not once, but DAILY. And that means on the 1st day of the week.


Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.


It would mean they were celebrating passover "every day of every week" since in Acts 2 for a short time they met every day.

Ummm, "breaking bread" is not Passover Bob. Not related to Passover. Next.

No text says "Lord's Day not Sabbath" as we both know.

LOL, as we both know? Gee Bob, what are you even talking about. I don't care about your opinion. NO one said it did. Please, back to Scripture.


No text says "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" as we both know.
We both do not agree on this. So you're wrong.

But we do have "the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28....as we both know.

LOL, we do NOT agree on your opinion that this verse in Mark is related to the Sunday being called "The L-rd's Day". Speak for yourself, not me. The L-rd' Day is recognized as Sunday, the 1st day if the week. And IT, the L-rd's Day, Sunday, the 1st day of the week is a PERFECT day to meet, break bread, teach about Yeshua, worship Him, rest in Him and more.

Now, unless you have something new to say and not the same thing over and over, I think we've proven that we both do NOT know the same things.
 
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FreeAtLast

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An actual Bible text that made your case would have served you well just then.

Have one??



What we know is that no text calls week-day-1 the Lord's Day.
What we know is that no text says "from week-day-1 to week-day-1" they met for worship.
No text says "they met every week-day-1" for Gospel preaching.

But we do have them meeting "every Sabbath" for Gospel preaching Acts 18:4
and we do have "Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath" gospel preaching in Acts 17:4


No text says "Lord's Day not Sabbath" as we both know.
No text says "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" as we both know.
But we do have "the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28....as we both know.
And we have "Sabbath - the Holy Day of the Lord" Isaiah 58:13 -- as we can all see.

Is repeating the same thing over and over even though it's been addressed and refuted, considered goading? Saying over and over that "we both know" something which has been refuted, instead of actual discussion considered goading? I wonder if the Mods could answer that. I think I'll ask.
 
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bekkilyn

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Problem with downsizing the bible to a handful of verses in Acts 15 and Acts 21

Acts 15 and in Acts 21 there is no reference at all to

1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

None of that is found in Acts 15 or Acts 21. And it does not matter because they still had to comply with it.

So then -- your point?

The point is that they were arguing over which parts of the Mosaic law the Gentile Christians needed to keep so there would be unity between the Jewish and Gentile Christians in the church at the time. Not because Christians are under the Mosaic law, but because they did not desire the newly developing church to split between Jews and Gentiles and Jewish Christians did not wish to abandon all of their customs and traditions, and so it was a compromise.

Christians were encouraged to comply with the teachings of Jesus, not for the purpose of being saved because they were *already* saved, but in order to grow and mature in their faith. Jesus left out observing the Sabbath when he was providing details and explanation on his commandments. If Sabbath observation was of primary importance, he and his apostles, including Paul, would have given it emphasis everywhere in the NT, but they didn't, and Jesus didn't mention it at all in his sermon on the mount even while he made certain to address the other nine commandments.
 
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bekkilyn

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Isaiah 56:1-8 specifically speaks to the point of gentiles observing Sabbath - and we both know it.

Please explain how there were Gentile Christians observing the Sabbath at the time when Isaiah was written? While I agree that Isaiah does contain passages that prophesy the coming Messiah, Jesus hadn't been born yet and the Old Covenant still applied until the cross.
 
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klutedavid

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In reply Bob.
you said there is a "tradition" of keeping week-day-1 as the weekly day of worship -- but you only found a one-time incident where they ever met for a meeting on week-day-1.
The Corinthians were told to take a collection on the first day, perhaps you missed that one.

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

Notice the word, 'collections', this implies that the plate was passed around when they met, they met on the first day.
By contrast "Every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 they met for gospel preaching.
Yes they did Bob but if you read a little further we find.

Acts 18:6
But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

See Bob, Paul is now going to the Gentiles and we both know the Gentiles were not under the law.
A "one time meeting" does not "a tradition" make.
I do agree with you on that point.

Yet we find that Jesus appeared to the apostles on the third day, that being the first day of the week. From then on, this first day is remembered by the church as the day, Jesus was seen to have risen. That is why Sunday was the day they gathered to break the bread.
After the Apostles died - you do have a few references to a week-day-1 meeting. No doubt.
Lots of them Bob.

Gentiles were never under the law, that is why they were never circumcised. You can't get around that point.
 
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BobRyan

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Please explain how there were Gentile Christians observing the Sabbath at the time when Isaiah was written?

1. Heb 4:1 the "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"
2. Gal 3;8 "the Gospel was preached to Abraham"
3. Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel
4. 1 Cor 10:4 "they all drank from the same Spiritual Rock - and that Rock was Christ"

Isaiah 56:6-8

will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

Isaiah 56
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants,
every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”


A promise specific to gentiles who are doing as stated in the chapter.

And of course Moses AND Elijah "stand WITH Christ" in Matthew 17 in glory - before the cross.

While I agree that Isaiah does contain passages that prophesy the coming Messiah, Jesus hadn't been born yet and the Old Covenant still applied until the cross.

When you find Christians affirming these details in the Word of God - do you accuse them of being under the Old Covenant since none of this is in the tiny snippet found in Acts 15 for gentiles?


1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

The New Covenant as we find it in the actual Bible refers to the same commandments - see Jeremiah 31:31-33
 
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Danthemailman

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The New Covenant as we find it in the actual Bible refers to the same commandments - see Jeremiah 31:31-33
The moral precepts of the Ten Commandments are repeated under the New Covenant, except for the command to keep the Sabbath.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3
 
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listed

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It does when someone take a one-time-reference like Acts 20:7 as if that means "they did this every week"

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.


It would mean they were celebrating passover "every day of every week" since in Acts 2 for a short time they met every day.



No text says "Lord's Day not Sabbath" as we both know.
No text says "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" as we both know.
But we do have "the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28....as we both know.
And we have "Sabbath - the Holy Day of the Lord" Isaiah 58:13 -- as we can all see.
Acts 20:7 has nothing to do with any other day of the week.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The moral precepts of the Ten Commandments are repeated under the New Covenant, except for the command to keep the Sabbath.

Well that is not true, seems you missed a lot of scripture for the Sabbath..

God's Law (10 commandments) in the New Testament


1 You shall have no other gods before Me.
It is written: You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only you shall serve. Luke 4:8, Matthew 4:10, Rev. 14:7

2 You must not make for yourself a carved image, a likeness of anything in heaven, on earth, or under the sea.
God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. John 4:24, Acts 15:20, 1 Cor. 6:9, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Rev. 2:14

3 You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain.
1 Tim. 6:1, James 2:7

4 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The Sabbath [seventh day] was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, so the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. Mark 2:27-28, Hebrews 4; Matthew 12:8; Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56(Mark 2:28; Matthew 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; 1 Corinthians 11:1; Ephesians 5:1-21; 1 Peter 2:20-22; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelations 1:10
Is binding on all mankind today COL 2:14-17 THE REAL TRUTH THREAD (Linked)

5 Honour your father and mother.
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Ephesians 6:1, Col 3:20

6 You shall not murder.
I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:44-45, Matt. 5:21-26, Romans 13:9, 1 Tim. 1:9, 1 John 3:15

7 You shall not commit adultery.
I say to you whoever even looks at another in lust has already committed adultery in their heart. Matthew 5:28, 1 Cor. 5:11, 1 Cor. 6:18, Galatians 5:19, Hebrews 13:4

8 You shall not steal.
Neither thieves, the greedy, or drunkards and robbers will inherit the Kingdom. 1 Cor. 6:10, Romans 2:21, Mark 7:21, Ephesians 4:28

9 You shall not bear false witness.
For by your words, you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 15:19, Ephesians 4:25, Col. 3:9

10 You shall not covet your neighbours possessions.
Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist of the things he possesses. Luke 12:15, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 5:3, 1 Tim. 6:10, Hebrews 13:5]
 
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1. Heb 4:1 the "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"
2. Gal 3;8 "the Gospel was preached to Abraham"
3. Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel
You've yet never identified this Gospel.
4. 1 Cor 10:4 "they all drank from the same Spiritual Rock - and that Rock was Christ"
You don't understand the word "Christ."
Isaiah 56:6-8

will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

Isaiah 56
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants,
every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”
Those foreigners were no longer foreigners when they joined the covenant given to Israel (See Exodus 12:48).
A promise specific to gentiles who are doing as stated in the chapter.

And of course Moses AND Elijah "stand WITH Christ" in Matthew 17 in glory - before the cross.



When you find Christians affirming these details in the Word of God - do you accuse them of being under the Old Covenant since none of this is in the tiny snippet found in Acts 15 for gentiles?


1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18
So what, my non Christian neighbor complies with the above except point 6 and that is because of people like you.
The New Covenant as we find it in the actual Bible refers to the same commandments - see Jeremiah 31:31-33
No we don't. Some of us can read.
 
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bekkilyn

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1. Heb 4:1 the "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"
2. Gal 3;8 "the Gospel was preached to Abraham"
3. Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel
4. 1 Cor 10:4 "they all drank from the same Spiritual Rock - and that Rock was Christ"

Isaiah 56:6-8

will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

Isaiah 56
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants,
every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”


A promise specific to gentiles who are doing as stated in the chapter.

And of course Moses AND Elijah "stand WITH Christ" in Matthew 17 in glory - before the cross.

All of those verses are reinforcement that salvation comes through *faith* and not law, and has *always* been about faith rather than law. To twist them around to try to make them somehow claim that Christians are currently under the covenant that God made with the *Israelites* at Horeb (Sinai) is a huge stretch. That covenant had a particular purpose and it was fulfilled by Jesus's death on the cross. "It is finished."

When you find Christians affirming these details in the Word of God - do you accuse them of being under the Old Covenant since none of this is in the tiny snippet found in Acts 15 for gentiles?


1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

The New Covenant as we find it in the actual Bible refers to the same commandments - see Jeremiah 31:31-33


This is missing the forest for the trees. It is not about following the letter of the law, ten commandments or otherwise, and has never truly been about following the letter of the law. The law clearly demonstrated to us that we cannot be saved by the law because we all fall short.

The *spirit* of the law is in our hearts with guidance by the Holy Spirit. People obey Jesus's teachings out of love for him and to build a better relationship with him. It is a *response* to being saved, and a thank you for what he did for us, and a way to mature in our faith, and not a *means* of being saved or of desperately trying by our own efforts to keep hold of our salvation once we have been saved.
 
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BobRyan

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All of those verses are reinforcement that salvation comes through *faith* and not law, and has *always* been about faith rather than law.

True - faith in Christ, the Gospel.

As the NEW Covenant points out - forgivenss of sins, adoption into the family of God - and the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on the heart under the new birth that gives the new heart.

As even Christ points this out to Nicodemus before the cross - and says that Nicodemus should already know about the new birth - given that he is a Bible teacher in Israel.

That is pre-cross and post-cross... no change in the New Covenant as the one Gospel in both ages.
 
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BobRyan

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When you find Christians affirming these details in the Word of God - do you accuse them of being under the Old Covenant since none of this is in the tiny snippet found in Acts 15 for gentiles?


1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

The New Covenant as we find it in the actual Bible refers to the same commandments - see Jeremiah 31:31-33

This is missing the forest for the trees. It is not about following the letter of the law, ten commandments or otherwise, and has never truly been about following the letter of the law.

Christ gives a perfect example of just how meticulous God is in affirming His own Word - the Ten Commandments in Mark 7


7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Now I think we both agree that the Jews whom Christ was accusing would never accuse themselves of abusing the Commandment of God as they used their tradition to apply minor "tweeks".

But Christ said that such meddling was not allowed. Was His affirmation of the "word of God" as He called it - a problem in your view?

The law clearly demonstrated to us that we cannot be saved by the law because we all fall short.

True. Do you view Christ's affirmation of the Ten Commandments in that example above - as a preaching of legalism or salvation by works??

The *spirit* of the law is in our hearts with guidance by the Holy Spirit. People obey Jesus's teachings out of love for him and to build a better relationship with him. It is a *response* to being saved, and a thank you for what he did for us,

agreed. And Christ''s hammering of the magisterium of his day for daring to infringe even in the slightest degree on the Ten Commandments (in this case "Honor your father and mother") - was pointing to sin in their actions which He said nullified their worship.

and a way to mature in our faith, and not a *means* of being saved

Agreed.

But 1 Cor 6 points out to those 'that have been justified' the error of supposing they can freely enjoy rebellion as if this will not be a salvation problem for them. He says to them "it is already a defeat for you" then adds "be not deceived".

In Matt 18 Christ teaches the lesson of "forgiveness revoked" and we see in that teaching "I forgave you ALL of that debt should you not have forgiven your brother just as you had been forgiven... return all his debt to him that he should repay all" Matt 18.

Rebellion can be the path to the loss of salvation.
 
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BobRyan

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The moral precepts of the Ten Commandments are repeated under the New Covenant, except for the command to keep the Sabbath.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

Hint: James 5:21 does not say 3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12

What it says in real life is "12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment."

There is an OT text about not taking oaths - but that is not Exodus 20:7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain."

None of that language used in the NT.

And we all know it.

By contrast the bible Sabbath commandment is quoted in Rev 14:7 quoting Exodus 20:11 and is quoted in Hebrews 4 and in Acts.

Bible details matter.
 
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BobRyan

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Jesus was not spreading the "gospel" of the ten commandments, and neither were the apostles.

The Gospel includes the New Covenant and we all know it.

Jesus said pre-cross "THIS Gospel of the kingdom is to be preached in all the world" Matt 24

And Jesus said to teach others - what He taught.

And Jesus said this about those trying to edit/tweek the ten commandments.


7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

And the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God - written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.

And that is a Bible detail so obvious that both sides admit to it - both the pro-sunday side and the pro-Bible-Sabbath side.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
 
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Dave-W

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in Acts 15 and in Acts 21 there is no reference at all to

1. Do not make graven images
That would be covered under "things polluted by idols."
4. Do not murder
That one is "or blood," which if taken from the Noachide laws reads "shedding of innocent blood." (murder)
 
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