Who are the "two witnesses" in Revelation 11:3-6 ?

BABerean2

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When the Lord Jesus Returns, Every Human Body Will Die as its tried by the Lords fire, the glorified eternal will remain.

"The Fire Will Try All Men's Work"

1 corinthians 3:13, 2 peter 3:10-13

Not necessarily.

Dan 3:24  Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 
Dan 3:25  He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 
Dan 3:26
  Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 
Dan 3:27  And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.


We belong to the 4th man in the fire.

He bought us with His Blood.

Mat_3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

. 
 
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Truth7t7

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The first person to teach dispensationalism was Edward Irving and in his Morning Watch Magazine he gave the date, Christmas Day, 1825. You can find it on Google books/Google Play. But you will have to read through it from the beginning as I didn't make a note of which volume. It was one of the early years but after 1826 because in the same article he said that he next taught it the same day in 1826. The Irvingite prophet Robert Baxter said they taught the rapture would be in 1833* False prophecy on false interpretation.
*Copy of a letter from Mr Baxter to Mr Armstrong, 3 Aug 1835 quoted in Irvingism in its Rise, Progress and Present State by Robert Baxter, 1836.
This was after Mr Baxter left the movement accusing him self of delusion.
I dont believe or teach either dispensationalism or preterism :)

There will be a future man of sin/ antichrist, abomination of desolation, great tribulation. The church will be present on earth to witness these future events.

The Lord Jesus will return in the "Second Advent" immediately after the tribulation, that will see the resurrection of all that have lived and died, the final judgment, and the eternal kingdom revealed on the last day :)

No 66-70AD Fulfillment, or pre-trib rapture, or earthly millennial kingdom, simple :)

There ya have my brief explanation :)
 
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David Kent

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Preterism = Revelation and Antichrist was in the past. began by Jesuit Alcasar.
PRETERISM A counter-interpretation to the Historicism held by Protestantism was proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who also wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that it allof Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):
Historic or Historicist = Revelation is a continual narrative from the time of "The things that are" till the beginning of eternity, being a history of the church written in advance being taught in signs, signified. Revelation 1:1 The papacy is the Antichrist. The Early Church Fathers taught this believing that The Temple referred to the Church and Jews referred to Christians. Tertullian for instance taught that the, 144,000 were Christian virgins,
Futurist = Revelation is mostly future. Antichrist is future. Began by Jesuits Ribera and Bellarmine, Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, Also taught by Michael Walpole and Ben Ezra, all Jesuits.
Allegorical or Spiritual No actual prophecy, only allegories of spiritual truths.
 
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Truth7t7

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Not necessarily.

Dan 3:24  Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 
Dan 3:25  He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 
Dan 3:26
  Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 
Dan 3:27  And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.


We belong to the 4th man in the fire.

He bought us with His Blood.

Mat_3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

. 
Barean no mortal human body will live through 2 Peter 3:10-13, 1 Corinthians 3:13, Malachi 3:2 on and on :)

Vivid Example Of The Lords Fire In Judgment Of All Men's Work? Zechariah 14:12

God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:29

The righteous pass through the fire to the eternal kingdom, the wicked are caught in it "Eternally"!

The glorified spiritual body will be on the other side of the fire, not the physical human body.

We will disagree :)
 
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BABerean2

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Also taught by Michael Walpole and Ben Ezra, all Jesuits.

"Ben Ezra, a converted Jew" is the pen-name used on the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", written by the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza.

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files



.
 
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David Kent

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"Ben Ezra, a converted Jew" is the pen-name used on the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", written by the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza.

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files



.
Yes I know that, but earlier writers didn't seem to know that, but quoted him as Ben Ezra. In one of his books Henry Grattan Guinness listed about 200 books in the bibliography of one of his books. He mentions Ben Ezra listed under books on prophecy but not under Futurism.

Lacunza used the pseudonym Ben Ezra, a converted Jew to hide the fact that he was a Jesuit.

Gratton Guinness was an historist, You can get his books on line,
 
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jgr

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Yes I know that, but earlier writers didn't seem to know that, but quoted him as Ben Ezra. In one of his books Henry Grattan Guinness listed about 200 books in the bibliography of one of his books. He mentions Ben Ezra listed under books on prophecy but not under Futurism.

Lacunza used the pseudonym Ben Ezra, a converted Jew to hide the fact that he was a Jesuit.
It's quite refreshing to see yourself listed as a Baptist, but having an exceptional understanding of prophetic history. Here in North America, virtually every Baptist in existence has been dispensationalized, papalized, and futurized.
 
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imsaneru

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Matthew 17:10-13 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
 
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David Kent

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It's quite refreshing to see yourself listed as a Baptist, but having an exceptional understanding of prophetic history. Here in North America, virtually every Baptist in existence has been dispensationalized, papalized, and futurized.

I know. I call them Neo Brethren rather than Baptist. Here most non ecumenical Baptists that I know here would adhere to the 1689 Baptist confession. I am not sure what the ecumenical Baptists believe.

I believe that US Evangelicals are also dispensationalized, papalized, and futurized.
 
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David Kent

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John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
That doesn't trump the words of Jesus.
 
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Waterwerx

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We can argue back and forth about who the two witnesses will or will not be until blue in the face. However, the important thing to understand is what their purpose is:
To witness to Israel and the world that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who fulfilled BOTH the Law and the Prophecies.
#1. Christ fulfilled the Law so that we as believers are not condemned by it and end up eternally separated from God.
#2. Christ fulfilled the prophecies of His first coming, death, and resurrection, and will be returning to set up His kingdom here on earth.

We can say that it is appointed for all men to die once and use that Scripture as a reason to include Enoch as one of the two witnesses, but we've already seen exceptions to this in both the OT & NT where individuals have died more than once, which exceeds the requirement. If this is the case going in that direction, then I don't see why it couldn't be the case in the opposite direction where certain faithful individuals could be excluded from physical death.

Bear in mind that the tribulation period is also the time of Jacob's(Israel) trouble. What relation does Enoch have to Israel in regards to it's history as a nation and the covenant God made with them compared to Moses & Elijah? All we have regarding Enoch is that he was the 7th from Adam and that at some point during his time on earth had prophesied the doom of the ungodly when the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.

The idea of Enoch being one of the two witnesses is purely based on the fact that he never died a physical death and a reference of him giving a prophecy during his life in Jude 1:14 regarding the fate of ungodly individuals. Its certainly not a lot to go on compared to Moses.
 
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BABerean2

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I know. I call them Neo Brethren rather than Baptist. Here most non ecumenical Baptists that I know here would adhere to the 1689 Baptist confession. I am not sure what the ecumenical Baptists believe.

I believe that US Evangelicals are also dispensationalized, papalized, and futurized.

Unfortunately, you are correct.

However, there is a new seminary in Tennessee which is teaching the Bible from a New Covenant perspective, instead of Reformed Covenant Theology or Dispensational Theology.



Providence Theological Seminary
Dr. Gary Long is head of the seminary.


Providence Theological Seminary

.
 
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David Kent

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Bear in mind that the tribulation period is also the time of Jacob's(Israel) trouble.

No it is not. Jacob's trouble was at the time of the Babylonians not future. That is a futurist's interpretation of a prophecy taken from its local meaning.

No future tribulation either. The tribulation in the Olivet prophecy was on Jerusalem and Judah, and the great tribulation in Revelation is on Christians.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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jgr

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Matthew 24:21
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Ever read Flavius Josephus' "The Wars of the Jews"?

If not, you should.

He was a confirming eyewitness to the apocalypse which Christ had predicted. Included in here are some choice excerpts.

More...

"Thus, at Alexandria, where the Jews had enjoyed the greatest privileges for centuries, they were incited to rise in revolt by the seditious element, and were destroyed unmercifully, and this, their destruction, was complete. Houses were first plundered of what was in them, and then set on fire by the Romans. No mercy was shown to the infants, and no regard had to the aged; but they went on with the slaughter of persons of every age, till all the place was overflowed with blood, and fifty thousand of them lay dead in heaps (II l8:8)."

“I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananias was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs; that being the day whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. And I cannot but think it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge His sanctuary with fire, that He cut off these, their great defenders, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments and presided over the public worship, were cast out naked to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. Now after these were slain the Zealots and the Idumeans fell upon the people as upon a flock of profane animals, and cut their throats.”

“The noise of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the noise of the fighting. Nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually, one upon another. But as for the seditious bands themselves, they fought against each other while trampling upon the dead bodies which lay heaped one upon another, and being filled with a mad rage from those dead bodies under their feet, they became the more fierce. They, moreover, were still inventing pernicious things against each other; and when they had resolved upon anything, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity” (V. 2. 5).

Josephus' succinct summation:
"It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men’s iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly:—That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." (The Wars of the Jews, 5.442)
 
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birdetto

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Moses, Elijah and Enoch are the most likely candidates for Revelation's two witnesses, with most scholars believing the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. In Matthew 17, when Jesus took Peter, James, and John to the mount and was transfigured in front of them, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. Enoch was not there. The transfiguration can be seen as a picture of the coming of the two witnesses--Moses and Elijah.

Malachi 4:5 predicts that Elijah will come as one of the two witnesses: "See I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes." Elijah was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind and chariot of fire (see 2 Kings 2:9-11); he did not physically die. Likewise, Moses, did not die a normal death. The Bible tells us that God preserved Moses' body (see Deuteronomy 34:5,6; Jude 9). The accounts of their deaths further corroborate the selection of Moses and Elijah as the two witnesses.

The powers given these two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-6, are the very same ones they were each given during their lifetime. The power to shut up the sky so it didn't rain was given to Elijah in 1 Kings 17:1. Moses was given the power to turn water into blood, in Exodus 7:17.


Quasa92r


The two witnesses are those who are true believers, so this means more than a literal two persons. The true believers receive power to share the gospel. Luke 24:49: "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." Rev 11:3-4, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Notice that the two witnesses prophesy. The book of Revelation tells us that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Further, the Bible is described as 'this more sure word of prophecy'. In short, the gospel is the prophesying that is going on. Just as the persons involved are not a literal two persons, so it is not literal fire that comes out of their mouths. Fire in the Bible is a buzzword for judgment. What the verses are saying is that if anyone rejects the true believers' gospel, then they are under spiritual judgment because they have not believed the gospel. Mark 16:15-16: "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Notice that the two witnesses are said to be olive trees and candlesticks. This is language the Bible uses to talk about the true believers generally and not just two literal persons. Rev 1:20 tells us that the candlesticks are the churches. When the Bible speaks about wild and natural olive trees in Romans 11 it is in reference to them being the true believers generally (not a literal two persons).
Notice that the true believers (two witnesses) are engaged in battle and overcome in Rev 11: 7. We read about this in Rev 13 as well: "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:" Notice that the two witnesses here are simply described as the saints generally. This is describing how the true believers' gospel cannot be heard in the congregations of the church age any longer because judgment falls in that arena, so to speak. It is as if the true believers gospel is effectively dead in the congregations because the people in that arena cannot hear it in a saving way. After this time of patience on the part of the saints, when they cannot be heard in the congregations, spiritual life returns. People begin to hear their gospel in the world and they multiply. It is like the time after the people have been in the ark. They are free to go forth and multiply spiritually.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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The case for Elijah isn't bad, as the Bible specifically names him as an end-times prophet. Moses, however, is pure speculation, and the fact that Revelation had the witnesses getting killed at the end would mean that Moses would have to die a second time, and be resurrected again, which seems a little excessive.
Lots of people have died and been resurrected in their unregenerated flesh and died again, both in the Bible and in the entire Church age, even to today.

Moses' death was an oracle of the judgement of eternal death for those who deny that the Atonement was once, for all, who received it, by striking the Rock/Christ a second time, after they have received the revelation of His saving grace and fall away.
The Word says to "take words and return to Him, offering the calves of our lips as sacrifice."
Never deny the Blood shed once, for all.

So Satan -the one named "Death", couldn't eat Moses' flesh/dust, cause he was raised and is alive in his flesh, and is with Elijah in heaven, and they are coming back as eye Witnesses of the incarnation, life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and Glory of the Messiah, to preach Him in the streets of Jerusalem.
 
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Truth7t7

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We can argue back and forth about who the two witnesses will or will not be until blue in the face. However, the important thing to understand is what their purpose is:
To witness to Israel and the world that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who fulfilled BOTH the Law and the Prophecies.
#1. Christ fulfilled the Law so that we as believers are not condemned by it and end up eternally separated from God.
#2. Christ fulfilled the prophecies of His first coming, death, and resurrection, and will be returning to set up His kingdom here on earth.

We can say that it is appointed for all men to die once and use that Scripture as a reason to include Enoch as one of the two witnesses, but we've already seen exceptions to this in both the OT & NT where individuals have died more than once, which exceeds the requirement. If this is the case going in that direction, then I don't see why it couldn't be the case in the opposite direction where certain faithful individuals could be excluded from physical death.

Bear in mind that the tribulation period is also the time of Jacob's(Israel) trouble. What relation does Enoch have to Israel in regards to it's history as a nation and the covenant God made with them compared to Moses & Elijah? All we have regarding Enoch is that he was the 7th from Adam and that at some point during his time on earth had prophesied the doom of the ungodly when the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.

The idea of Enoch being one of the two witnesses is purely based on the fact that he never died a physical death and a reference of him giving a prophecy during his life in Jude 1:14 regarding the fate of ungodly individuals. Its certainly not a lot to go on compared to Moses.
In #2 above you state Jesus will return to set up a kingdom on this earth?

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly teaches Jesus Christ will return to "Final Judgment" as seen in verse 46, the wicked "Eternal Punishment" the righteous "Eternal Life"

The Kingdom presented in verse 34 is the "Eternal Life Kingdom" :)
 
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Truth7t7

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Lots of people have died and been resurrected in he's dead in his body of flesh?ir unregenerated flesh and died again, both in the Bible and in the entire Church age, even to today.

Moses' death was an oracle of the judgement of eternal death for those who deny that the Atonement was once, for all, who received it, by striking the Rock/Christ a second time, after they have received the revelation of His saving grace and fall away.
The Word says to "take words and return to Him, offering the calves of our lips as sacrifice."
Never deny the Blood shed once, for all.

So Satan -the one named "Death", couldn't eat Moses' flesh/dust, cause he was raised and is alive in his flesh, and is with Elijah in heaven, and they are coming back as eye Witnesses of the incarnation, life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and Glory of the Messiah, to preach Him in the streets of Jerusalem.
I missed that in scripture, as you claim Moses is alive in his flesh today?

Deuteronomy 34:7-8 states he's died in his body of flesh?
 
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