The Church is absolutely unnecessary.

S.O.J.I.A.

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And where do you see that the church is a system of hierarchy, buildings, tithes and so on in either epistle to Timothy?

not everyone is an elder of the church. Paul appointed elders to the churches. the buildings in this case were houses where people met for worship and where these elders lead, taught, and administered the sacraments.

the "building" that everyone seems to be vilifying is merely a place where the saints are meeting for worship under the guidance of appointed elders. if followers of Christ were not under heavy persecution at the time of the apostles, they would have met in buildings with furnished sanctuaries and pulpits back then too.
 
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elliott95

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Churches in times of heavy persecution, such in today's China, or the early centuries of Christianity, were never cathedrals. People's private homes, catacombs underground, out of sight and out of mind of those who would kill Christians for such activities, were the churches of the time. Even in times of less persecution, and the churches that were being described by Timothy, the usual form was the family church of the estate, with relatives and slaves and people with close personal ties, were the form the Church took.

As Christianity became dominant throughout Europe, honor and praise and glory to God entailed spending time and resources in creating environments of great beauty and elegance all in the glory of God.
North Americans do not fully appreciate the role that beauty plays in cultivating the higher senses, and the higher senses are of a spiritual nature. Europeans show much more concern for elegance and craftsmanship, and the architect of the church is the highest achievement in creating environments of great beauty and splendor that has ever been attained in all of human history. This is all in honor and glory to God.

When a Christian is asked what is the reason for their existence, the correct answer is normally said to be to give honor and praise and glory to God. Not even fighting evil is as important to our earthly existence as is our purpose of praising God.
When it comes to creating spaces of beauty and splendor to honor our Creator, that is exactly what the space of the physical church may do.
In the architect of the physical church, we have often achieved our purpose for being here. The music of Christianity, the art and frescoes and mosaics, the domes of the great cathedrals, the spires and the apses; these are all expressions of our highest spiritual nature. These all exist as tributes to our God.

Of course there is a gospel of social justice, and a personal relationship expressed in the quiet of our own private spaces. But in no way does the physical space of the church impede or contradict that personal relationship. Indeed, church services also include those types of worship and charities, in effect giving us the types of behaviors we are to mimic in our homes and in our lives outside of the physical space of church.
 
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Ronald

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the spiritual corruption is obvious to all, unless of course one is wilfully blind.
There is no perfect church, but faithful yes. In Revelation we see the Seven letters to Seven churches and three out seven were faithful the rest were put on notice to repent, exposing the sin within. These letters were to specific churches but were also messages to all churches throughout the Church Age. Yes, man misinterprets scripture (as you apparently do as well) and some mislead their flocks. But make no mistake, God is sovereign and He has everything under control. He has factored in our sins and failures into His perfect plan. Every Christian in the Book of Life has been accounted for. His work has been done and He is right on schedule. Man cannot mess up His plan. Only the works of the Holy Spirit through us matter -- they are accomplished. Fear not, evil has been restrained by the Holy Spirit and He also uses the Body of Christ and governments of the world to do His will.


Intellectual ability is utterly irrelevant when it comes to serving God.

Well I would not discount an unintelligent man in his service to God. God uses all men. But to get through 8 years of Seminary, advance to Bishop, Cardinal and then Pope requires a bit of intelligence, knowledge, a exemplary track record, peer admiration, a reflection of Jesus' Light and Love that has well been experienced and noted throughout his Church body.

If St Francis of Assisi is a church of Jesus Christ, then inviting pagans to place their pagan gods on the altar is the equivalent abomination of putting idols in the temple of God in Jerusalem.

Again your narrow perspective only sees what you want to see and that is evil. Idols were not worshipped by any Christians during this event, nor should we at any time. For instance, a Buddha placed anywhere is nothing and means nothing, has no power - it's just a statue of a fat dead person who had no power then nor does he have power now. We aren't to bow down to any idol and worship it but the idol itself has no power in the presence of God and the Church. But we do not wrestle statues or with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities in dark places - demons. We wrestle with the spiritual realm, that is what you should concern yourself with.

You don't make converts by indicating that their god is equal to your god!

I am sure the Pope did not make that claim. Maybe you are inferring that because of your prejudice?
Christian theologians know who God is and know He is the only God and so, in a sense our God is their God, (unbeknownst to them), but they see Him in a distorted way, they believe falsely and not according to the Bible. They may believe basic things like He is the Creator, He loves us, He's all knowing. If you told a Hindu who believes in many gods, reincarnation, etc., that Jesus loves him and wants a relationship with him, he might respond, "I know ... he is one of many ..." And then he would share his thoughts. He's confused and has a false concept of God, nevertheless, there is one God who loves him.
So regardless of all the false religions, God loves us and that would be the Pope's foundational concept along with peace, hope, and faith. If you are the Pope, you don't burn bridges and cut yourself off from all other religions and firmly demonize them -- you don't do that. You speak the truth in love. The Word transforms hearts and minds, not burning people at the stake.

He gave legitimacy for perverse and satanic gods.
He continually told Christians to pray to Mary.
The final world antichrist religion will be pantheism, all gods being equal. That is what he endorses.

I am aware of this ecumenical movement, but I do not think Pope John Paul II ever gave legitimacy to other gods -- because there aren't any. Satan is said to be the "god of this world system", but he's a fallen angel -- and he is legitimate.
Btw, the final anti-Christ religion is Islam. Islam has always been anti-Christ and anti- Semitic throughout their history. They are surrounding Israel and the Middle East is on fire as we speak. The mark of the beast is the Islamic symbol these Muslim terrorists wear on their sleeves or headbands. Their signature is chopping of heads which btw is supported by Rev. 20:4 So get off your anti- Catholic, anti- Church path -- you are way off base!
 
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faroukfarouk

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Churches in times of heavy persecution, such in today's China, or the early centuries of Christianity, were never cathedrals. People's private homes, catacombs underground, out of sight and out of mind of those who would kill Christians for such activities, were the churches of the time. Even in times of less persecution, and the churches that were being described by Timothy, the usual form was the family church of the estate, with relatives and slaves and people with close personal ties, were the form the Church took.

As Christianity became dominant throughout Europe, honor and praise and glory to God entailed spending time and resources in creating environments of great beauty and elegance all in the glory of God.
North Americans do not fully appreciate the role that beauty plays in cultivating the higher senses, and the higher senses are of a spiritual nature. Europeans show much more concern for elegance and craftsmanship, and the architect of the church is the highest achievement in creating environments of great beauty and splendor that has ever been attained in all of human history. This is all in honor and glory to God.

When a Christian is asked what is the reason for their existence, the correct answer is normally said to be to give honor and praise and glory to God. Not even fighting evil is as important to our earthly existence as is our purpose of praising God.
When it comes to creating spaces of beauty and splendor to honor our Creator, that is exactly what the space of the physical church may do.
In the architect of the physical church, we have often achieved our purpose for being here. The music of Christianity, the art and frescoes and mosaics, the domes of the great cathedrals, the spires and the apses; these are all expressions of our highest spiritual nature. These all exist as tributes to our God.

Of course there is a gospel of social justice, and a personal relationship expressed in the quiet of our own private spaces. But in no way does the physical space of the church impede or contradict that personal relationship. Indeed, church services also include those types of worship and charities, in effect giving us the types of behaviors we are to mimic in our homes and in our lives outside of the physical space of church.
Well, you know the saying: "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church."
 
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2Timothy2:15

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not everyone is an elder of the church. Paul appointed elders to the churches. the buildings in this case were houses where people met for worship and where these elders lead, taught, and administered the sacraments.

the "building" that everyone seems to be vilifying is merely a place where the saints are meeting for worship under the guidance of appointed elders. if followers of Christ were not under heavy persecution at the time of the apostles, they would have met in buildings with furnished sanctuaries and pulpits back then too.

You did not answer my question and Paul did not appoint a single person in 1st or 2nd Timothy other than saying to take Mark with him as he is a benefit. Matter of fact Paul spends more time talking about how people will distort the truth to twist it for their own gain....go figure. One this is true, they met in homes and that is the biblical model.
 
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elliott95

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Well, you know the saying: "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church."
Islam was a religion that was developed with exactly that in mind. The first lands that Arabs conquered were predominately Christian lands, and now much of that world, roughly two thirds of the extent of the lands that were Christian at the time of invasion, are now upwards of 99 % Muslim. The history of Christians in the House of Islam has not been one of genocidal purges, for the most part. It has been a history of relentless humiliation that does not normally enter into the range of slaughter of martyrs, but each and every generation a few more seek to at least moderately improve their social standing in society by crossing over to the other side.
In terms of this thread, we can see what effect the loss of glorious churches have had under this kind of system. The most awesome edifices, like Hagia Sofia, for example, are taken over outright. The rest of the churches are left in a state of perpetual disrepair, as per sharia instructions.
People turn their gaze away from the inglorious, humiliated houses of Christ up toward the edifices and the haunting calls to prayer that inspire, and those edifices and calls are the mosques and voice of Islam.
Islamic rulers considered the lessons of Roman history very well indeed. They did not take away the lives of the Christians. Indeed, Christians form a very useful part of the tax base. They weren't even particularly concerned about conversion therefore. Conversions inevitably led to further invasions in order to maintain the tax base of dhimmis and Janissary slaves from the loins of their Christian subjects.
They did not take away the lives of Christians. What they took away was the churches, and Christianity in the House of Islam, slowly, relentlessly, methodically, crumbled away along with those churches.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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You did not answer my question and Paul did not appoint a single person in 1st or 2nd Timothy other than saying to take Mark with him as he is a benefit. Matter of fact Paul spends more time talking about how people will distort the truth to twist it for their own gain....go figure. One this is true, they met in homes and that is the biblical model.

1 timothy 3 lays out the qualifications for elders and deacons. unless you want to argue that elders and deacons were never appointed to lead churches than you're question is indeed answered.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Dura-Europos house church gives us the earliest glimpse of Christian places of worship, dating to about 241 AD. It was a house church, a villa specifically, which had been modified specifically for Christian use.

font-diagram.jpg


Note that the villa had been modified to include a baptismal font, the building also had been decorated in beautiful fresco paintings, one including an image of the three women visiting Christ's tomb.

It is generally agreed, and historical and Biblical data seems to affirm it, that Christians met in the larger homes of members, often the villas of the wealthier widows. Notice how 3 John is addressed to a woman who seems to be in charge of the church, she is likely the patroness whose house was being used for worship. Archeological digs, such as Dura-Europos, show precisely this sort of thing; villas being used for Christian worship. That these were also homes doesn't really change the fact that they were buildings used for corporate worship of the Christian community.

The reason we start to see buildings specifically constructed for Christian worship in the 4th century is because Christianity was legalized by the Edict of Toleration in 313. Prior to this Christianity was an outlawed religion, and had no legal rights to establish for themselves public houses of worship the way Jews and Pagans could.

Christians have to meet somewhere, so this hatred of buildings used for Christians meeting together for worship seems entirely ridiculous to me.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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2Timothy2:15

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1 timothy 3 lays out the qualifications for elders and deacons. unless you want to argue that elders and deacons were never appointed to lead churches than you're question is indeed answered.

Yes it lays out the qualifications for elders but it is not a description of the system we see today in buildings that operate as temples with a hierarchy.

But you said Paul appointed people in those chapters, he did not. You also implied that those chapters is evidence for the system we see now which it does not.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Yes it lays out the qualifications for elders but it is not a description of the system we see today in buildings that operate as temples with a hierarchy.

But you said Paul appointed people in those chapters, he did not. You also implied that those chapters is evidence for the system we see now which it does not.

we have elders and deacons who lead churches today just like in scripture. no one can read the new testament and deny Paul as being a church planter. 1 timothy 3 lays out the criteria he used in choosing elders for churches and the timothy letter's, which are part of the pastoral epistles, are Paul giving instructions to timothy for his appointment to the eldership in how he is to run his congregation.

again, the fact that the early church met in houses was of necessity due to persecution. the same thing goes on today in china and Korea due to similar persecution.

tithing is not necessary, giving absolutely is. we should give in accordance to our ability to do so, which could be lesser or greater than 10%. if you're tight fisted with God He will be tight fisted with you(ephesians 4:28, 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, 2 Corinthians 9)
 
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zelosravioli

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"Christians have to meet somewhere, so this hatred of buildings used for Christians meeting together for worship seems entirely ridiculous to me" (ViaCrucis) I agree, the problem is hierarchy not buildings. The problem is the idea of 'clergy'- the problem is the ecclesiological format.

You can have a large assembly of believers without the hierarchy, pews and pulpits. The hierarchy, pews and pulpits prevent the community, fellowship, participation in what was meant to be discipleship (we often do what Church 'should' look like, we have bible study, fellowship nights where we have rooms of 50-400 believers meeting and sharing around 'tables'. That is what Sunday morning 'should' look like).

Like the scriptures points out, the disciples' met around 'tables'. They 'talked' to one another, it was study, singing, prayer and meals (communion) 'with' one another - like normal life - there was no religious ritual, pulpit, hierarchy.

The simplicity of Christ and His body the Church, and the assembly, became a ritualized religious ceremony - rather than all it was meant to be: believers gathering together, enjoying their forgiveness and new life with one another.

(I believe pastors, deacons, overseers, elders were meant to 'simply' be table leaders, serve the tables, keep others from 'lording' over others. And that there were 'many' of them - are there not many wise or mature among you? If not then the leadership has failed, and the church has failed - and it has for centuries)
 
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ViaCrucis

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"Christians have to meet somewhere, so this hatred of buildings used for Christians meeting together for worship seems entirely ridiculous to me" (ViaCrucis) I agree, the problem is hierarchy not buildings. The problem is the idea of 'clergy'- the problem is the ecclesiological format.

You can have a large assembly of believers without the hierarchy, pews and pulpits. The hierarchy, pews and pulpits prevent the community, fellowship, participation in what was meant to be discipleship (we often do what Church 'should' look like, we have bible study, fellowship nights where we have rooms of 50-400 believers meeting and sharing around 'tables'. That is what Sunday morning 'should' look like).

Like the scriptures points out, the disciples' met around 'tables'. They 'talked' to one another, it was study, singing, prayer and meals (communion) 'with' one another - like normal life - there was no religious ritual, pulpit, hierarchy.

The simplicity of Christ and His body the Church, and the assembly, became a ritualized religious ceremony - rather than all it was meant to be: believers gathering together, enjoying their forgiveness and new life with one another.

(I believe pastors, deacons, overseers, elders were meant to 'simply' be table leaders, serve the tables, keep others from 'lording' over others. And that there were 'many' of them - are there not many wise or mature among you? If not then the leadership has failed, and the church has failed - and it has for centuries)

We have a pretty good idea of how early Christians worshiped, for one, because we have written accounts and two, because traditional Christian worship and traditional Jewish worship are remarkably similar--and that's because Christian liturgy effectively continues the Jewish liturgy that Jesus, the Apostles, and the earliest Christians were familiar with. And it doesn't look like a bunch of people gathered around tables with everyone owning their own copy of the Bible, in part because that was literally impossible for most of history. Remember that mass production of books has only been possible for the last five hundred years, prior to the invention of the moveable type printing press books were hand-written, with copyists spending years, perhaps even a lifetime, reproducing a single copy of a single book.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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zelosravioli

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(Via, I attempted to make my post above as simple as possible, in order to condense and make 'the point' as easy to understand as possible. To focus on 'the solution', rather than just the lonnnnnng history of heresy which is - the divine presbytery - and the corruption of what was essentially the 'simplicity' of Gods disciples. I assumed correctly that someone would have to try and add a technical response :) , after I had edited out the church /Jewish history, ecclesiology, theology yada yada, which I have studied extensively, which establishes the fact of this deceptive pope pastor pageantry. Please look up and review other threads I've responded to on this topic).

There is nothing in my post that suggests the early church had printed scriptures or bibles, or abundant copies of anything other than their own their faith in the apostles teaching. The jewish church may have had copies of the Torah (their only scriptures), and some had pages of torah as well, which weren't as scarce as you may suggest. I have spent thousands of hours discussing and talking about the scriptures with others without having or opening them up, as we also have memory too. I would suggest that the early Church had a knowledge of something, and were not as dumb as the clergy would have you think.

That they met around tables (and ate) (I am not speaking of literal european tables) is well supported by history and scripture, where as sitting in pews with a hierarchy is not supported at all.
:groupray: not :yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::liturgy: :yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:
 
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alex2165

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The Church is absolutely unnecessary.



Hi everyone. I'd like to start a debate with regards to the necessity of church worship.

I am of the opinion that aside from enhancing your social life and having a sense of community, a church is absolutely useless. If a church becomes responsible for providing food for the needy and shelter from the homeless, then it's a different story. However, outside of those things, it is absolutely and utterly useless.

Sometime in the late medieval period, a group of Christians, who later became known as "mystics", absolutely rejected church worship and took to worshiping God their own way. This to me is brilliant. God, after all, is a personal God who resides in our hearts. There is no practical use for a church when it comes to salvation and fulfillment. It is nothing but just another business that employs people. All we really need is a Bible and our unwavering faith.

Your thoughts?



I agree with Bee Brian, indeed the church is useless and worthless because of its demagogy and greed for money. Church became a place of business just like the Temple in Jerusalem during Christ’s period.

But if a church will be a community of people who are study Bible in the church, teach one another, and each and everyone in the church express their opinion and point of view, and not become “stumps” sitting silently and listen the gibberish of their pastors instead, then I would say it is a true church as it was intended in the Scripture and by GOD.

The Temple of the Lord in Jerusalem also was intended for such purpose as to teach people, to make teaches to teach others and to spread the Word of GOD all over the world, and to be the true place of worship for the entire world as it described in Mark 11.17My House shall be called a House of Prayer for all the nations” but as we all very well know it became: “‘My House shall be a House of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers.” (Isaiah 56.6-7)”. (Matthew 21.14) (Mark 11.17) (Luke 19.45).

Since very beginning, from about second century A.D., church became extremely corrupt and did not fulfill it intendent function and purpose even up to this day, just like the Temple in Jerusalem at its time.

But true Temple and the true Church reside now in the heart (soul) of every true Christian, who driven by the Holy Spirit to Study the Bible and pass this knowledge to others in true sense of it word, as it is written in the Bible.

First Corinthians 3.16-17

16.Do you not know that you are GOD’S temple, and that GOD’S Spirit dwell in you?

17.If anyone destroys GOD’S temple, GOD will destroy that person. GOD’S temple is Holy, and you are that temple.


First Corinthians 6.19

19.Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you which you have from GOD, and that you are not your own?


Second Corinthians 6.16

16.What agreement has the temple of GOD with idols? We are the temple of the living GOD as GOD said, ‘I will live in them and walk among them, and I will be their GOD and they shall be My people. (Exodus 29.45) (Leviticus 26.12) (Jeremiah 31.1.33) (Ezekiel 37.27

The Bible is not the subject of just reading and interpretations, but the subject of Study. Knowledge comes from the Study of the Bible, but the understanding always comes from the Lord GOD.

And so, if church cannot provide needed knowledge and education, it is up to individual to Study the Bible in earnest, and no doubt that the Lord GOD will give such person needed understanding.


Revelation of John 3.12

Vision of John. The message of the Lord to the church in Philadelphia

12.If you conquer, I will make you a pillar in the Temple of My GOD, you will never go out of it. I will write on you the name of My GOD and the name of the city of My GOD the new Jerusalem that comes down from My GOD out of Heaven, and My own new name.

Amen.
 
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Introverted1293

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That is very interesting.

I will admit I have problems with the church myself. I mean, the people in the church can be very hurtful in the way that they speak the truth. Sometimes people in the church can seem very self-righteous. But I guess that attitude in itself can be very self-righteous. Scripture tells us to confess our sins one to another. And sometimes that is very difficult because people in the church can condemn you.

I have a problem how Christianity is politicized these days. I have heard Christian say if you are a liberal then you're not a true Christian. I do not get upset that Christian speak the truth, but sometimes the way they speak the truth can be very hurtful. But that's only because I'm very sensitive.

So I have my own problems with the church. But I am not at all saying that my problems is right. I will admit I don't fully understand Christian love. Because sometimes Christian love seems like hate.

I am not at all saying that Christians are self-righteous. I am saying sometimes it seems like they are, but that it is my problem. I probably would have said that about Jesus if he was on Earth. I probably would have thought who is this man telling me that I should go and sin no more. He is so self-righteous. I only feel that way because I hate being told that I am in sin.

But according to scripture it does say that we need the church. That is probably why I haven't grown in my relationship with God. But that also is my fault, I'm not blaming the absence of church. I don't know what it's like in the Christian culture very well because I haven't spent a lot of time in church or fellowshipping with Christians. All of my friends happened to be non-christians. But that was not really by choice, I never really chose the friends I have, they always chose me.

But according to Paul, referring to the church, he says that the hand cannot say to the foot I do not need you anymore. Or the eye can't say to the hand I do not need you anymore. Paul says that Christians are all one body and that they need each other. And that Christians are the church. And the church is the body of Christ.

Now, this seems very hypocritical for me to be saying this because I don't go to church. I know I am in the wrong for not going to church. But I don't go because I am disabled, even though other people have offered to drive me. I just don't want to seem like a burden to other people. I also don't go because of social anxiety. A lady offered to drive me to church one day and I called her up that same day and decided that I could not go to church. The idea of walking inside a church freaked me out. I would be the new guy in the church and I was afraid that everyone would stare at me. That scared me.

So I know I don't have the right to preach about not going to church. I am just acknowledging what Paul said. So, according to Paul, the church is not worthless. That is my point.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes it lays out the qualifications for elders but it is not a description of the system we see today in buildings that operate as temples with a hierarchy.

But you said Paul appointed people in those chapters, he did not. You also implied that those chapters is evidence for the system we see now which it does not.
So when Jesus and the disciples attended the synogogues, they weren’t going to buildings with Pharisees or Saduacees as teachers?
 
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2Timothy2:15

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So when Jesus and the disciples attended the synogogues, they weren’t going to buildings with Pharisees or Saduacees as teachers?

Um, Jesus and the disciples were not "attending" synagogue. Jesus went and preached the truth to massively corrupted men in their corrupt system. Hence he called it the synagogue of satan. He went there because that is where those men were, not because he was endorsing synagogues...

Jesus went into the synagogue and read out of Isaiah which is a prophecy about himself to which the Jews wanted to stone him immediately. Jesus was not endorsing nor attending synagogue because he saw it as legitimate but rather to announce his coming to the Jews first as prophesied.
 
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