Is 1 John 1:8 about Believers or Christians...?

1stcenturylady · Nov 11, 2017

Blood Bought 1953 said:
God gave us the HOLY Spirit so we could see that we are sinners who need a Saviour....and that Saviour is Jesus
It is God’s u.timate will to “transform” us into being like His Son.....that is the job of the Holy Spirit..it does not happen overnight.....it is a work not finished in our life here on earth.....we’ll know perfection in Heaven

No, the LAW is what showed us our SIN.

Jesus didn't die just so we could keep on sinning.

Think again.

Why did Jesus give us the Holy Spirit?

1stcenturylady · Nov 11, 2017

Blood Bought 1953 said:
Have not been to a brick-and -mortar church for 50 years....I ha e listened to many preachers on tv and gleaned much info from great internet sites."...check out “get God’s gift.org” or HarryIronside and the gospel.
I hope I am mistaken, but methinks you are lying in wait for me.what denomination do you favor?I usually say I am a “Jesus man”—-a free man in Christ."..saved by The Blood of Jesus a nd nothing else.

No, dear, I'm not a denominationalist either? I was just interested to know how you came up with the opposite conclusion I did when we both use the same Bible. But you seem to be in the majority, not the minority. That is why I asked. Rarely do I find someone on the same page as I. It wasn't a "trick" question. Just wanted to narrow down where it started and, especially, how long ago. Recently, I was reading the sermons of John G. Lake of the late 1800's, early 1900's, and was flabbergasted to see how much he and I were on the same page. Everything he said was already a part of me. It was like I could have written his sermons! It was very encouraging to say the least!

Seeing as you like Ironside, you might be interested to know that I own all of Ironside's commentaries (that I could find). I have a small bookcase set aside for his and a 20 volume set of Spurgeon's sermons.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 11, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
What I was responding to was the idea that we can sin and we are saved from the punishment sin requires.

I relate very much to your first paragraph.

What I don't understand is your question about law and punishment. How does that relate to what I said? If you walk in the Spirit, you are not under the law, because you wouldn't be breaking any. Therefore, you wouldn't be committing sin that requires punishment.

I just wanted to understand your point of view.

We are somewhat speaking a different "language" to each other, because if I say we all sin, I don't mean what I think you are talking about when you say we don't/can't sin.

We have very different points of view. I wouldn't mind explaining, but I don't wish to argue, so unless you are interested, I won't go into more detail.

The end result for us both is that Christians become sanctified. And that is by the Holy Spirit. We agree on these.

It is a punishment vs correction/healing within the motives of God, and the understanding of what all is included within "sin" where we differ. (For us it is ALL "missing the mark" ... not only "breaking the rules/law".)

(And I do understand you are saying we are not under law, which I would agree, that's not what I'm implying.)

But I just wanted to understand you. I like to understand people.

No argument intended.

God be with you.

1stcenturylady · Nov 11, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
I just wanted to understand your point of view.

We are somewhat speaking a different "language" to each other, because if I say we all sin, I don't mean what I think you are talking about when you say we don't/can't sin.

We have very different points of view. I wouldn't mind explaining, but I don't wish to argue, so unless you are interested, I won't go into more detail.

The end result for us both is that Christians become sanctified. And that is by the Holy Spirit. We agree on these.

It is a punishment vs correction/healing within the motives of God, and the understanding of what all is included within "sin" where we differ. (For us it is ALL "missing the mark" ... not only "breaking the rules/law".)

(And I do understand you are saying we are not under law, which I would agree, that's not what I'm implying.)

But I just wanted to understand you. I like to understand people. No argument intended.

God be with you.

I'll break it down in terms I hope we both know. In my own life I have found that ever since I was filled with the Holy Spirit (30 years after starting to go to church), that I have power not to sin as never before. And what I call "sin" is going against my conscience. Paul seemed to talk a lot about our conscience, and I believe it is where the laws of God are now written. When we obey our conscience that is righteousness; when we go against our conscience that is sin.

In the sanctification process, I have seen that my conscience grows. What I did many years ago in a clear conscience, I no longer do.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 11, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
I'll break it down in terms I hope we both know. In my own life I have found that ever since I was filled with the Holy Spirit (30 years after starting to go to church), that I have power not to sin as never before. And what I call "sin" is going against my conscience. Paul seemed to talk a lot about our conscience, and I believe it is where the laws of God are now written. When we obey our conscience that is righteousness; when we go against our conscience that is sin.

In the sanctification process, I have seen that my conscience grows. What I did many years ago in a clear conscience, I no longer do.

Yes, I understand perfectly.

I would have said exactly the same.

The only real difference in this is the way we use the words. What I mean when I say "sin" includes those fine distinctions of conscience we may not yet possess. Also such things as attitudes, reactions, desires.

Most people first consider sins as acts. They then realize they can also sin with words. They next realize that to even think on a thing is sin. And so on.

I would take it a bit deeper and say that even that flash of wanting to do a thing (it is difficult to overcome the desire to reply with a slightly sarcastic answer when one is insulted, for example) ... or for that matter even the fact that we got insulted in the first place, is what I include in "sin" (because it falls short of the standard of being like Christ Himself), as well as any failure to do what is good. In these things we all frequently fail.

But certainly, I abhor the very thought of many things I used to do, do not even desire to do them, have no trouble not doing them, from the moment I count as my real commitment and conversion.

It all just depends what we mean when we say "sin" ... and there are a number of different definitions we use among ourselves as Christians.

Blood Bought 1953 · Nov 11, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
No, the LAW is what showed us our SIN.

Jesus didn't die just so we could keep on sinning.

Think again.

Why did Jesus give us the Holy Spirit?

I think it was God’s intent in giving the law to show that fallen man could not keep it ..Some blind fools thought that they could...I. Believe they were called Pharisees....There used to be 613 commandments Jesus added 2 more that people forget when they evaluate their law-keeping abilities....if you even have a lustful thought,you are an adulterer——how are all you “law keepers” doing with that one?of course Jesus did not die so we could “keep on sinning” what an insult. Indeed,the law showed us our sin and most people think that they keep it or are OK as long as they try to keep it.They live in a fool’s paradise.you really wanna know why God sent The Holy Spirit? He shows blessed people that they are BANKRUPT when it comes to keeping the law.When the Holy Spirit opens their eyes——that is the starting point of Christianity.You will see with new eyes...You are a vile sinner and Hell is where you belong..the Holy Spirit internalizes this truth——to make you realize this in your heart—that is God”s Holy Spirit.....if you are lucky enough to reach this low point...The Truth that will drive you to your knees.the Truth that will make you cry “God have mercy on me a sinner!”, then you will have ,
Met the Holy Spirit and you will finally know why God sent Him. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” is no joke...without the Holy Spirit that will never happen......maybe you will find a way t
To make Christianity a “religion” that you can “keep”.....perhaps Satan will prefer to keep you in your Fool’s Paradise along with the millions of other lost souls and “Christians”......God gave us free will,the choice is ours.....But “nobody comes lest the Holy Spirit calls him”
Sorry..Sometimes I get carried away lol
Y
Y

1stcenturylady · Nov 11, 2017

Blood Bought 1953 said:
I think it was God’s intent in giving the law to show that fallen man could not keep it ..Some blind fools thought that they could...I. Believe they were called Pharisees....There used to be 613 commandments Jesus added 2 more that people forget when they evaluate their law-keeping abilities....if you even have a lustful thought,you are an adulterer——how are all you “law keepers” doing with that one?of course Jesus did not die so we could “keep on sinning” what an insult. Indeed,the law showed us our sin and most people think that they keep it or are OK as long as they try to keep it.They live in a fool’s paradise.you really wanna know why God sent The Holy Spirit? He shows blessed people that they are BANKRUPT when it comes to keeping the law.When the Holy Spirit opens their eyes——that is the starting point of Christianity.You will see with new eyes...You are a vile sinner and Hell is where you belong..the Holy Spirit internalizes this truth——to make you realize this in your heart—that is God”s Holy Spirit.....if you are lucky enough to reach this low point...The Truth that will drive you to your knees.the Truth that will make you cry “God have mercy on me a sinner!”, then you will have ,
Met the Holy Spirit and you will finally know why God sent Him. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” is no joke...without the Holy Spirit that will never happen......maybe you will find a way t
To make Christianity a “religion” that you can “keep”.....perhaps Satan will prefer to keep you in your Fool’s Paradise along with the millions of other lost souls and “Christians”......God gave us free will,the choice is ours.....But “nobody comes lest the Holy Spirit calls him”
Sorry..Sometimes I get carried away lol
Y
Y

Jesus told us why He is giving us the Holy Spirit.

8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

It is not just power to spread the gospel, but to live the gospel. He gives us power over sin. Romans 6 says we are dead to sin. Romans 8 says we are not in the flesh, or in other words, our old carnal nature. 1 John 3 says a Christian does not sin.

All because of the Holy Spirit.

Blood Bought 1953 · Nov 12, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
No, dear, I'm not a denominationalist either? I was just interested to know how you came up with the opposite conclusion I did when we both use the same Bible. But you seem to be in the majority, not the minority. That is why I asked. Rarely do I find someone on the same page as I. It wasn't a "trick" question. Just wanted to narrow down where it started and, especially, how long ago. Recently, I was reading the sermons of John G. Lake of the late 1800's, early 1900's, and was flabbergasted to see how much he and I were on the same page. Everything he said was already a part of me. It was like I could have written his sermons! It was very encouraging to say the least!

Seeing as you like Ironside, you might be interested to know that I own all of Ironside's commentaries (that I could find). I have a small bookcase set aside for his and a 20 volume set of Spurgeon's sermons.

Seems like you do not care for Mr Ironside that much....would you give a good deal if I offered to buy the books? Lol

Blood Bought 1953 · Nov 12, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Jesus told us why He is giving us the Holy Spirit.

8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

It is not just power to spread the gospel, but to live the gospel. He gives us power over sin. Romans 6 says we are dead to sin. Romans 8 says we are not in the flesh, or in other words, our old carnal nature. 1 John 3 says a Christian does not sin.

All because of the Holy Spirit.

I,m pretty sure that I have the Holy Spirit...in fact I’m

Positive that I do....where have I erred?......how do I get the perfection that you have? Will the Blood of Jesus cover me until I get to be sinless like you? Believers in Paul’s day sinned....that’s why it speaks of Gods chastisement....did they become sinless later on? Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake? What gives?

Neogaia777 · Nov 12, 2017

Blood Bought 1953 said:
I,m pretty sure that I have the Holy Spirit...in fact I’m

Positive that I do....where have I erred?......how do I get the perfection that you have? Will the Blood of Jesus cover me until I get to be sinless like you? Believers in Paul’s day sinned....that’s why it speaks of Gods chastisement....did they become sinless later on? Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake? What gives?

Good questions...?

God Bless!

Blood Bought 1953 · Nov 12, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Good questions...?

God Bless!

Likewise ..... God bless you also

ViaCrucis · Nov 12, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Jesus told us why He is giving us the Holy Spirit.

8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

It is not just power to spread the gospel, but to live the gospel. He gives us power over sin. Romans 6 says we are dead to sin. Romans 8 says we are not in the flesh, or in other words, our old carnal nature. 1 John 3 says a Christian does not sin.

All because of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus wasn't talking to us, He was talking to His apostles.

"In the first book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus did and taught from the beginning until the day when he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. After his suffering he presented himself alive to them by many convincing proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father. 'This,' he said, 'is what you have heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'

So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?' He replied, 'It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.'" - Acts 1:1-8

Obviously the Spirit is given to each of us, as St. Peter said in Acts 2:38-39, "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many s the Lord our God will call to Himself."

And as for what the Spirit does for us, well Scripture says many things. The Holy Spirit is the evidence that we will be resurrected from the dead (Romans 8:11), it is the Spirit in us which we can cry out "Abba!, Father!" (Romans 8:15-16) and confess that Christ is Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3). The Spirit does empower us, but there's no promise that the Spirit being in us means we won't sin. The empowering of the Spirit Jesus mentions in Acts 1:8 is specifically to the Apostles, as these are the ones who will "be My witnesses", remember the book is called "The Acts of the Apostles" because it's about the things the Apostles did, about how the Apostles went out, preached, and spread the Gospel to every corner of the ancient inhabited (i.e. Roman) world. Note, also, that Jesus didn't promise His Apostles here that they would some how be free from sinning, in point of fact we know that they didn't because St. Paul in his letter to the Galatians talks about how he had to call out St. Peter for his cowardice and hypocrisy.

The Spirit in us is not the guarantee that we'll be anything other than sinners while alive here on earth with our mortality; the Spirit in us instead is the guarantee that we belong to Christ and that even in this body of death we have the confidence and conviction that even as God raised Christ from the dead, He will raise us up also. That we are in Christ and have God as our Father. It is precisely the life of the Spirit (Romans 8) that gives hope to the Apostle who in the previous chapter (Romans 7) cries out "what a wretched man I am!" because of the conflict and struggle between the new man and the old, "the good that I want to do I don't do and the evil I don't want to do I do"; that in spite of our mortality and the "law of sin" present in our members, we have hope in Jesus, and to walk in the life of the Spirit with our eyes fixed on that hope; that not only we ourselves, but all creation shall be made whole and restored on that future glorious Day.

-CryptoLutheran

1stcenturylady · Nov 12, 2017

Blood Bought 1953 said:
Seems like you do not care for Mr Ironside that much....would you give a good deal if I offered to buy the books? Lol

Maybe.

1stcenturylady · Nov 12, 2017

Blood Bought 1953 said:
I,m pretty sure that I have the Holy Spirit...in fact I’m

Positive that I do....where have I erred?......how do I get the perfection that you have? Will the Blood of Jesus cover me until I get to be sinless like you? Believers in Paul’s day sinned....that’s why it speaks of Gods chastisement....did they become sinless later on? Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake? What gives?

Paul warned to not quench the Spirit. We still have free will. I like the way the Living Bible put it, "why sin when you don't have to." And James shows the progression to sin, and even to death. James 1:14-15.

1stcenturylady · Nov 12, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Jesus wasn't talking to us, He was talking to His apostles.

"In the first book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus did and taught from the beginning until the day when he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. After his suffering he presented himself alive to them by many convincing proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father. 'This,' he said, 'is what you have heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'

So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?' He replied, 'It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.'" - Acts 1:1-8

Obviously the Spirit is given to each of us, as St. Peter said in Acts 2:38-39, "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many s the Lord our God will call to Himself."

And as for what the Spirit does for us, well Scripture says many things. The Holy Spirit is the evidence that we will be resurrected from the dead (Romans 8:11), it is the Spirit in us which we can cry out "Abba!, Father!" (Romans 8:15-16) and confess that Christ is Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3). The Spirit does empower us, but there's no promise that the Spirit being in us means we won't sin. The empowering of the Spirit Jesus mentions in Acts 1:8 is specifically to the Apostles, as these are the ones who will "be My witnesses", remember the book is called "The Acts of the Apostles" because it's about the things the Apostles did, about how the Apostles went out, preached, and spread the Gospel to every corner of the ancient inhabited (i.e. Roman) world. Note, also, that Jesus didn't promise His Apostles here that they would some how be free from sinning, in point of fact we know that they didn't because St. Paul in his letter to the Galatians talks about how he had to call out St. Peter for his cowardice and hypocrisy.

The Spirit in us is not the guarantee that we'll be anything other than sinners while alive here on earth with our mortality; the Spirit in us instead is the guarantee that we belong to Christ and that even in this body of death we have the confidence and conviction that even as God raised Christ from the dead, He will raise us up also. That we are in Christ and have God as our Father. It is precisely the life of the Spirit (Romans 8) that gives hope to the Apostle who in the previous chapter (Romans 7) cries out "what a wretched man I am!" because of the conflict and struggle between the new man and the old, "the good that I want to do I don't do and the evil I don't want to do I do"; that in spite of our mortality and the "law of sin" present in our members, we have hope in Jesus, and to walk in the life of the Spirit with our eyes fixed on that hope; that not only we ourselves, but all creation shall be made whole and restored on that future glorious Day.

-CryptoLutheran

You said: "The Spirit does empower us, but there's no promise that the Spirit being in us means we won't sin."

John said the opposite "9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

The Holy Spirit is more powerful than you give Him credit for.

pat34lee · Nov 12, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
@pat34lee and Neogaia777,

Sorry, but I will have to disagree. I don't think that is what Paul meant at all. It is not the law that has been taken out of the way, but our NEED for the law. The wages of sin is still death. So what is really happening in the life of a true Christian? Being given the Holy Spirit, that's what! He has made us DEAD to sin, not to the law. The law is now written on our hearts and we keep it, and do not sin, for sin no longer has an appeal to our new nature. We are not in the flesh (our old carnal nature) but in the Spirit, if we have the Spirit. Our reborn spirit empowered by the Spirit, has no need for written laws that we are now naturally keeping. If we have no power over sin, then that is a sign we don't have the Spirit at all, and do not belong to Christ.

Then I must ask again the questions from post #61.

The new covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34. His laws (Torah)
written on our hearts. Are you Israel? What is Torah? Do
you know every law by heart so as not to break them?

Also,
Can you show any character from the NT other than Yeshua
who did not sin, or who claimed not to sin?

1stcenturylady · Nov 12, 2017

pat34lee said:
Then I must ask again the questions from post #61.

The new covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34. His laws (Torah)
written on our hearts. Are you Israel? What is Torah? Do
you know every law by heart so as not to break them?

Also,
Can you show any character from the NT other than Yeshua
who did not sin, or who claimed not to sin?

It is not up to us to boast about such claims, because it is not us that has the power to not sin, but the Holy Spirit within us. And every apostles knew that too. Only those who have the Holy Spirit within them can relate. The still weak in their carnality can only scoff.

Blood Bought 1953 · Nov 12, 2017

The unsaved have but one nature...the sin nature....if you are born again you have another nature implanted that lives along-side that old nature...as Paul said,these two nature’s are BOTH in us — constantly at war with each other.....the old nature is not subject to the law of God and “neither can be”.......the new man is the Holy Spirit,His Spirit “can NOT sin......if we continue in the way we started,with FAITH.....the new man will win...”the righteous shall LIVE by faith”

ViaCrucis · Nov 12, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
You said: "The Spirit does empower us, but there's no promise that the Spirit being in us means we won't sin."

John said the opposite "9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

The Holy Spirit is more powerful than you give Him credit for.

He also says if we say we are without sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

-CryptoLutheran

1stcenturylady · Nov 13, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
He also says if we say we are without sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

-CryptoLutheran

Of course, if you think you are good enough and don't need Christ, that is true. You are reading it out of context of the whole. You need the Holy Spirit. verse 7 is about a Christian, verse 6,8 and 10 are not. And verse 9 tells how to BECOME a Christian.

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