The Church is absolutely unnecessary.

Goatee

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So? Rome glorifies in her title of the City of the Seven Hills,

Babylon the great was the city that ruled over the world at the time of Revelation - Rome.
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
The city which ruled over the kings of the earth was Rome.

Rubbish....stop fantasizing
 
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Francis Drake

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Noah understood clean and unclean animals - Genesis 7:2

Noah also offered one of each clean animal up to God as a burnt first fruit offering, something only written about in Torah - Genesis 8:20
The Law was given many centuries after Noah, and animal sacrifice itself could not have come from the Torah or Moses, but was established by God in Eden.
Also, Abraham did obey and keep God's Holy Law - Genesis 26:5
That verse has nothing to do with the Law of Moses.
Abraham's obedience to God started 430 years before the law was given.
Your mistake is in presuming that these patriarchs worked to some existing laws of God. But when it talks about them obeying God's commandments etc, it simply means they listened to what God told them and followed his instructions.
On the many occasions that God has spoken to me, I listened and obeyed his calling, and on occasion it has actually saved my life.
Likewise Abraham was listening for God's living voice, the voice which told him to leave Haran. He was not just following a set of rules.
Paul is very specific about this.-
Galatians3v17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Some of the instructions received by the various Patriarchs were universal, and others local and specific to that time and place. ie. We have not been told to get out of Haran, or to circumcise our boys!
Obviously, the understanding of substitutionary blood sacrifice came down from Adam, via Noah etc., but the idea of fringes and tassles etc was unknown to people before Moses.

 
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Francis Drake

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Jesus is looking at the world with His head in His hands and thinking that He created the true Church, the Catholic church yet people decided to go it alone! So many weeds have sprung up in what was a well sown field!
I can't be bothered to address such obvious idolatry, but I shall post some food for thought.-

Here's your apostate Popery celebrating with 100 pagans in St Francis of Assisi in 1986.
Anti-Pope John Paul II with Pagans, Idolaters, Infidels (Photos)
Here's a video of the same.
Anti-Pope John Paul II with Pagans, Idolaters, Infidels (Photos)

No matter how it gets sanitised, the spiritual corruption is obvious to all, unless of course one is wilfully blind.
 
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zelosravioli

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Taking a thread and debating something else, makes this forum all but
absolutely unnecessary

Understand I enjoy any good debate on doctrine/ecclesiology/soteriology, etc. but please learn to stay on topic, please, running off topic ruins the whole interest, flow, and reason for the forum/topic headings, etc.

 
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Goatee

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I can't be bothered to address such obvious idolatry, but I shall post some food for thought.-

Here's your apostate Popery celebrating with 100 pagans in St Francis of Assisi in 1986.
Anti-Pope John Paul II with Pagans, Idolaters, Infidels (Photos)
Here's a video of the same.
Anti-Pope John Paul II with Pagans, Idolaters, Infidels (Photos)

No matter how it gets sanitised, the spiritual corruption is obvious to all, unless of course one is wilfully blind.

I agree, you are blind to the truth....God bless you
 
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David Kent

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I can't be bothered to address such obvious idolatry, but I shall post some food for thought.-

Here's your apostate Popery celebrating with 100 pagans in St Francis of Assisi in 1986.
Anti-Pope John Paul II with Pagans, Idolaters, Infidels (Photos)
Here's a video of the same.
Anti-Pope John Paul II with Pagans, Idolaters, Infidels (Photos)

No matter how it gets sanitised, the spiritual corruption is obvious to all, unless of course one is wilfully blind.

No surprise. Just as pagan Rome had a pantheon of gods, so the Roman church has a pantheon of saints, or demigods. Jupiter was head of the pantheon and the same lump of metal that the pagans worshipped as Jupiter is now in St Peter's and worshipped as Peter.
 
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chilehed

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Just in case you hadn't realised it, the church is somewhat different to Christ.
Certainly the Church isn't Christ. But She is the Body of Christ, His Bride. So what I said is certainly true: you might as well say that Christ is unnecessary as that His Body is unnecessary.
 
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chilehed

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Would Jesus exist without the church? Yes, he is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

Jesus did not come to build a temple system but a church made of flesh.
Christ established His Church, said it was His Body, and commanded us to be a part of it. And you say it's unnecessary?
 
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elliott95

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I don't think that the question of the OP was just limiting itself as to whether the Roman Catholic Church is absolutely useless and unnecessary. I think it had more to do with organizational Christianity as a whole being useless and unnecessary.
For, say, a Baptist to find the Catholic Church useless and unnecessary, that is believable enough. Many Protestants find the Catholic Church much worse than just useless, but malevolent.
That prate becomes kind of boring after a while though, and it doesn't really address the focus of the debate.
The debate is whether, say, a Baptist would find his Baptist church useless and completely unnecessary, fine for providing social stimulation, and a pool of eligible dating partners, fun dinners and dances and what-not, but really nothing of any particular concern for Christians.
Of course, the Catholic answer about the Catholic church is clear enough. There is no marriage, without the wedding feast. The Church is the bride of Christ, and that is who we are. We partake of the Church in every conceivable way.

I think that the answers given by Catholics here have been clear enough, and remarkably consistent actually.
I am not sure about non-Catholics though? Clear enough that many find the Catholic Church useless. But do they really find their own churches that worthless to their lives too?
 
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Ronald

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The Church is absolutely unnecessary.



Hi everyone. I'd like to start a debate with regards to the necessity of church worship.

I am of the opinion that aside from enhancing your social life and having a sense of community, a church is absolutely useless. If a church becomes responsible for providing food for the needy and shelter from the homeless, then it's a different story. However, outside of those things, it is absolutely and utterly useless.

Sometime in the late medieval period, a group of Christians, who later became known as "mystics", absolutely rejected church worship and took to worshiping God their own way. This to me is brilliant. God, after all, is a personal God who resides in our hearts. There is no practical use for a church when it comes to salvation and fulfillment. It is nothing but just another business that employs people. All we really need is a Bible and our unwavering faith.

Your thoughts?
Absurd! The Church is the Body of Christ. It is the entire body of believers, whom which God works through. 2.3+ billion members in the body with each individual doing hundreds of works purposed and prepared by God are mind boggling. Each person serves as a functional part of this body and sometimes God uses us subtlety without our knowledge. Someday we will be impressed with how much God used us, how many seeds were planted, words spoken to comfort others at the right time. The gospel was spread by this body of believers, missions, hospitals, orphanages, charities, and a myriad of works done, pieced together, orchestrated to accomplish God's overall plan. The Church is essential, we cooperate with God and of course He deserves all the praise. But someday He will tell us, well done good and faithful servant.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Christ established His Church, said it was His Body, and commanded us to be a part of it. And you say it's unnecessary?
Ummm, that is not what I said.

Where did Jesus command us to be part of an institution? Chapter verse
 
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Francis Drake

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Absurd! The Church is the Body of Christ. It is the entire body of believers, whom which God works through. 2.3+ billion members in the body with each individual doing hundreds of works purposed and prepared by God are mind boggling. .
Unfortunately, the vast majority of those members have locked themselves in various institutions, serving the various headships, rules and methodologies of those institutions instead of Christ.
They have lost contact with the head.

Col2v9and not holding fast to the head, from whom the whole body, being supplied and being knit together by the joints and ligaments, increases with the increase of God.

Whether its Catholic, Baptist, or a tiny house group, once we place man over our head, our spiritual union to Christ as our head, starts to atrophy.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ummm, that is not what I said.

Where did Jesus command us to be part of an institution? Chapter verse

An institution is something which is instituted. Christ said, "On this rock I will build My Church" with those words He instituted His Church. Just as He instituted the Eucharist with the Words of Institution, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me. ... This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Corinthians 11:24-25), or instituted baptism and the preaching of the Gospel in the Great Commission, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..."

"Definition of institute
instituted; instituting
transitive verb
1 :to establish in a position or office
2 a :to originate and get established :eek:rganize
b :to set going :inaugurate
" - Definition of INSTITUTE

"Definition of institution
1 :an act of instituting :establishment
2 a :a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture

the institution of marriage

; also :something or someone firmly associated with a place or thing

she has become an institution in the theater

b :an established organization or corporation (such as a bank or university) especially of a public character

financial institutions

c :a facility or establishment in which people (such as the sick or needy) live and receive care typically in a confined setting and often without individual consent

… the testator disinherited her siblings over their efforts to have her committed to a mental institution in the wake of several suicide attempts. —William M. McGovern Jr.
" - Definition of INSTITUTION

By the very nature of what the Church is--the sacred assembly of Christians instituted by Christ which is constituted as His mystical Body--it is an institution. And Christ is its Head.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ronald

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Unfortunately, the vast majority of those members have locked themselves in various institutions, serving the various headships, rules and methodologies of those institutions instead of Christ.
They have lost contact with the head.

Col2v9and not holding fast to the head, from whom the whole body, being supplied and being knit together by the joints and ligaments, increases with the increase of God.

Whether its Catholic, Baptist, or a tiny house group, once we place man over our head, our spiritual union to Christ as our head, starts to atrophy.
Really, the vast majority of 2.3 billion Christians have lost contact with Jesus?
Did you ask them? I was wondering if you could give me their phone numbers, since you apparently know them personally, I'll give them a call and give them a nudge to back back with the program! :oldthumbsup:
 
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Ronald

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I can't be bothered to address such obvious idolatry, but I shall post some food for thought.-

Here's your apostate Popery celebrating with 100 pagans in St Francis of Assisi in 1986.
Anti-Pope John Paul II with Pagans, Idolaters, Infidels (Photos)
Here's a video of the same.
Anti-Pope John Paul II with Pagans, Idolaters, Infidels (Photos)

No matter how it gets sanitised, the spiritual corruption is obvious to all, unless of course one is wilfully blind.
How judgmental of a great Pope of our time. I am not a Catholic, but have the upmost respect for Pope John Paul II - I even read "Beyond the Threshold of Hope". What a brilliant man, spoke ten languages and had a vast knowledge of history aside from his being a graceful and holy man who served the people spiritually.
Being in the company of other religions and praying is not an abomination as you may think. The Pope prayed his own true prayer to Our Father in the name of Jesus, he didn't pray their prayers, nor does this mean that he accepted their paths to God. He was a person of peace, humility, not judging but offering hope and blessing. God does the work to convert unbelievers. It is possible that all those leaders were touched by the Pope in a special way.
"Blessed are the peace makers, for they shall be called sons of God." Matt. 5:9
That's all he was doing. Religious differences have caused many wars and by him coming together with the world of religions, a message of peace is sent and very possibly, for a while, the hatred, animosity and schemes of evil were suppressed for awhile and diffused.
Individuals who were calculating attacks of evil when seeing this might have had the wind taken out of their sails for a time.
 
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Francis Drake

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How judgmental of a great Pope of our time.
That was a Catholic website I linked to!
It was anti Protestant.
I am not a Catholic, but have the upmost respect for Pope John Paul II - I even read "Beyond the Threshold of Hope". What a brilliant man, spoke ten languages and had a vast knowledge of history aside from his being a graceful and holy man who served the people spiritually.
Intellectual ability is utterly irrelevant when it comes to serving God.
Being in the company of other religions and praying is not an abomination as you may think. The Pope prayed his own true prayer to Our Father in the name of Jesus, he didn't pray their prayers, nor does this mean that he accepted their paths to God.
If St Francis of Assisi is a church of Jesus Christ, then inviting pagans to place their pagan gods on the altar is the equivalent abomination of putting idols in the temple of God in Jerusalem.
He was a person of peace, humility, not judging but offering hope and blessing. God does the work to convert unbelievers. It is possible that all those leaders were touched by the Pope in a special way.
You don't make converts by indicating that their god is equal to your god!
"Blessed are the peace makers, for they shall be called sons of God." Matt. 5:9
That's all he was doing. Religious differences have caused many wars and by him coming together with the world of religions, a message of peace is sent and very possibly, for a while, the hatred, animosity and schemes of evil were suppressed for awhile and diffused.
Maybe with your expert knowledge you could have counselled Jesus to be less confrontational when he told the Pharisees that their father was the devil!
Individuals who were calculating attacks of evil when seeing this might have had the wind taken out of their sails for a time.

He gave legitimacy for perverse and satanic gods.
He continually told Christians to pray to Mary.

The final world antichrist religion will be pantheism, all gods being equal. That is what he endorses.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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An institution is something which is instituted. Christ said, "On this rock I will build My Church" with those words He instituted His Church. Just as He instituted the Eucharist with the Words of Institution, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me. ... This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Corinthians 11:24-25), or instituted baptism and the preaching of the Gospel in the Great Commission, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..."

"Definition of institute
instituted; instituting
transitive verb
1 :to establish in a position or office
2 a :to originate and get established :eek:rganize
b :to set going :inaugurate
" - Definition of INSTITUTE

"Definition of institution
1 :an act of instituting :establishment
2 a :a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture

the institution of marriage

; also :something or someone firmly associated with a place or thing

she has become an institution in the theater

b :an established organization or corporation (such as a bank or university) especially of a public character

financial institutions

c :a facility or establishment in which people (such as the sick or needy) live and receive care typically in a confined setting and often without individual consent

… the testator disinherited her siblings over their efforts to have her committed to a mental institution in the wake of several suicide attempts. —William M. McGovern Jr.
" - Definition of INSTITUTION

By the very nature of what the Church is--the sacred assembly of Christians instituted by Christ which is constituted as His mystical Body--it is an institution. And Christ is its Head.

-CryptoLutheran

Well I think we knew what I meant by institution. Jesus did not say upon this rock you will build buildings create this ranking system of men and burden people with tithes. His church is a spiritual thing not a building.

Funny thing is in that scripture you quoted then followed with a definition of institution the word institution is not found in scripture, anywhere. So your definition in the context of the church does not apply.

You can replace "institution" in my statement with a more specific that I opted to leave out. False man made system.
 
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The Church is absolutely unnecessary.



Hi everyone. I'd like to start a debate with regards to the necessity of church worship.

I am of the opinion that aside from enhancing your social life and having a sense of community, a church is absolutely useless. If a church becomes responsible for providing food for the needy and shelter from the homeless, then it's a different story. However, outside of those things, it is absolutely and utterly useless.

Sometime in the late medieval period, a group of Christians, who later became known as "mystics", absolutely rejected church worship and took to worshiping God their own way. This to me is brilliant. God, after all, is a personal God who resides in our hearts. There is no practical use for a church when it comes to salvation and fulfillment. It is nothing but just another business that employs people. All we really need is a Bible and our unwavering faith.

Your thoughts?
Dear "Hieronymus", I would firstly question which sort of church you have been going to, and by that I mean where is its spirituality on the scale 1-10. The things you mention of "Food & shelter" must be a product of its spirituality otherwise it will just be a sort of Social Services. What did Jesus mean when He said, "When two or three are gathered together in my name..." The Church must be, putting it simply [that's me], a group of people who have started and are seriously trying to develop their relationship with JESUS, no more no less. The great danger in "worshiping God their own way", is that you're only viewing everything through your own imperfection; unless you feel you're perfect already!!!! Let me throw it back at you and ask you what you feel about this:
Child’s Play
by Trevor Dennis, former Vice-Dean of Chester Cathedral
"One hot afternoon Adam and Eve, unselfconsciously naked, sat on the bank of one of the rivers of Eden, dangling their feet in the water. Eve picked up a flat round stone, stood up and flicked it in twelve graceful bounces right across to the other side.
‘Who taught you to do that?’ asked Adam.
‘God did.’
Adam turned towards God, ‘Did you really?’
‘Yes.’
‘And could you teach me?’
‘Of course. Watch.’
God stood up, chose a stone carefully, kissed it, curled his finger round it, and, with a movement of his wrist too quick to catch, sent it spinning downstream. It went almost as far as Adam and Eve could see, then swung round in a tight circle and came speeding towards them again, till with one last bounce it skipped back into God’s hand. It had hit the water two hundred times, and had left two hundred circles spreading and entwining themselves upon the surface. From the middle of each circle a fish leaped, somersaulted, and splashed back into the river.
‘Now you try!’ God said.
Adam pushed him into the water. God came to the surface a few yards out from the bank. ‘That was level ten, by the way.’ he called. ‘Eve’s only at level two at the moment. Aren’t you Eve?’
‘You were showing off, God,’ said Eve. ‘You’ll be walking on water next.’
‘That’s level twenty.’ laughed God, and promptly disappeared beneath the surface.
So it was once in Eden. So it can be still. So it is, on rare and precious occasions. But Adam and Eve complicated matters. They grew up to think flicking stones child’s play. They turned in upon themselves, and God remained out of sight, beneath the surface. They did not sit with him on the bank any more. Now and then, realizing their loneliness and overcome with sudden longing, they would gaze out across the water and see the ripples he left behind. But these were soon gone, and the water would resume its customary smoothness, as if nothing had happened, as if he had never been there. The Garden had ceased to be for them a holy place.
So they went in search of one. They left Eden behind. It was, after all, too small a place, too familiar. It held no surprises for them any more. They supposed they had nothing more to learn there, except for getting to levels ten or twelve, but that was child’s play, not worthy of their ambitions.
God followed them at a distance. Sometimes they could hear his footsteps behind them. Occasionally he came so close they could feel his breath on the backs of their necks. Very occasionally he sat down with them and shared their food and made the spot at once a holy place. Yet they were never satisfied for long. They would move on, hoping for more, yearning, though they did not realize it, for the days when they could sit with their feet in the waters of Eden, and push God in and hear him laugh, and marvel at what he could do with a round pebble and a flick of the hand.
It had all been so natural then. Perhaps it had not been child’s play, after all. Perhaps it had been God’s play. Perhaps they were the same thing. When such thoughts as these broke the surface of their minds, then God seemed, indeed was, very close once again.
Adam and Eve did not stay just Adam and Eve for very long. They had been told to be fruitful and multiply, and so they were and so they did, until, no longer only a couple, they became a family, then a clan, a tribe, a people.
The clan invented what they called ‘religion’, and the tribe and the people set about improving it. God was still following, at a distance. He carried a tent on his back, with the centre pole tied across his shoulders. The clan and the tribe tried to organize him. They told him where to pitch the tent, and the times when he should be there to meet them. But a sense of direction and punctuality did not seem to be among his strengths. Too often his tent was nowhere to be seen, or when they found it and raised the flaps to peer inside, he seemed not to be there.
The people said the whole idea of meeting God in a tent was absurd, if not an insult. They forgot it belonged to God and that he carried it himself on his back. They decided to make him a much finer place, one that could not be moved, one that was solid, predictable, fit for a king certainly, and suitable, thy hoped, for a god. So they built him a temple in the heart of their capital city, next to the palace of their king, and nearly as big, overlaid its walls with gold and ivory, painted heaven on its ceilings, filled the air between with incense and sweet song, and became very serious about it all.
God arrived there one day, when the people were so engrossed in what they were doing, that they were not expecting him at all.
‘Do you have balloons here?’ God inquired.
‘Balloons?’ they replied, ‘Balloons? Balloons are child’s play. We are serious here.’
‘Oh,’ said God, and retreated out of the door. He had propped up his tent in the entrance. He picked it up again, tied the pole across his shoulders, and went back to Eden, to flick some pebbles.
The first one bounded three hundred times, went round in three circles and had the fish doing triple Salchows. ‘Level twelve,’ murmured God. But no one heard him."
For me all the churches have totally lost the plot as far as Jesus is concerned, and, as said above have become embroiled with material things. Simply, all we have to do is to "suck" Jesus into our Hearts [through all the forms of prayer]; take a back seat and let Him work through us how and when He wants; and that is totally different to how the Social Services function.
 
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