Are we sitting pretty or are we sitting ducks?

How are we saved? I think we all fully agree that we are saved by grace alone. Period.

But here is where the issue lies. What must we do then to work the works of God in us? How do we truly obey all the time? That is the million dollar question. We all know we should obey, and of course we try, well, within reason, right? We don;t want to get fanatical about it after all. There must be balance. But our Lord told us that if our eye offends us cut it out? If our hand offends us, cut it off. Pretty radical stuff. Last time I lookedthere were still a bunch of people in church with two eyes and two hands, and tons of offenses remaining. How few walk that path of real true obedience 24/7/365. Why is this? No one has told us the key thing - HOW.

So, how can we obey? What is the secret?

If the truth is that it is not just about outward obedience, not committing adultery, or fornicating, etc, but about the heart of the matter, our heart, what acts of obedience can we do that will purify our minds, our thoughts, our innermost being? Is this not where our real battle lies? Is this not the elephant in the room no one wants to address?

No wonder people fall into the trap of doing outer works! We start out in grace, but then we are thrown onto our own strength, our own resolve, our own efforts to hold our flesh down. We tie it up, sit on it, discipline it, ignore it and all to no avail. It is still as active as ever. And if we do have moderate success with our efforts outwardly, we then become bonafide religious pharisees and are proud of our accomplishments.

This is the fly in the ointment we Christians fight with. How do we deal with our flesh? We all agree that it is all by grace that we are saved, but then what do we do from there? Our full obedience, heart obedience, must be by grace as well.

Our old nature, our fleshly nature is not to be disciplined into submission. This error is why men and women spend decades trying and not succeeding in real tangible growth into the likeness of our Lord. Our flesh must DIE, and not in the time payment plan. Please do not quote Paul saying "I die daily". In context here he was simply referring to the fact that as an apostle, he faced death every single day to spread the glorious gospel.

Paul tells us in Romans, by a radical act of faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and with his ressurection, to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, to put off our flesh as one gets out of a soiled garment. This is the conclusion to the radical acts Jesus listed to get us free indeed. it is not our hand or our eye that is the problem, it is our heart, and that heart, that old nature, it must die. In the same way, he tells us to put on the new man...by faith alone. We must believe we are new, that victory is ours...now.

We are asked to fight, but not for the victory, trying our best to attain it. This is works just as surely as if we try to work for our salvation. We are trying to work for our sanctification, but do we niot see? It is a gift! We are to fight IN the victory and with His strength in us, hold onto it. it is called the good fight of faith. We ARE new creatures and the old man is dead. Oh, if we but could be convinced first of our great need, and cry unto our Lord for deliverance!

This is our shield of faith, a shild that WORKS!. We are light in the Lord NOW. We have tried to "become light" by outer obedience, thinking that we will eventually get to the inside where the crud is. We never get there, do we?

New wine must be put into what? New wineskins! If we are believing that we are still the same old sinner, fighting the accusations of satan with our shield down, we will get our behinds handed to us just as we always have. But listen! We are NOT those same old fleshly sinners, we are now children of the most high, with Him inside us! If our shield is tucked away in the corner is it no wonder we are sitting ducks, and it is only a matter of time until we fall....again?

Blessings,

Gideon

But then there's the problem of sinning - either in the flesh or in the mind, which I think you'll agree happens practically every day in every believer's life. We must continue to battle the flesh as long as we are here, because like it or not, it's something we deal with on a daily basis.

Paul tells us in Romans, by a radical act of faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and with his ressurection, to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, to put off our flesh as one gets out of a soiled garment.

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He doesn't give many practical tips on how to go about this. We can reckon ourselves dead to sin. But tomorrow, the desire for sin reoccurs, because we are in fleshly bodies until we leave this life. Paul said that in his flesh was no good thing, and also that the good he wanted to do, he didn't, and the evil he did not want to do, he did.

This shows us that even Paul struggled with fleshly desires. This "putting away the old man" is an ongoing thing, not an instantaneous gift. THIS is where the war is.

stormdancer0 said:

But then there's the problem of sinning - either in the flesh or in the mind, which I think you'll agree happens practically every day in every believer's life. We must continue to battle the flesh as long as we are here, because like it or not, it's something we deal with on a daily basis.



He doesn't give many practical tips on how to go about this. We can reckon ourselves dead to sin. But tomorrow, the desire for sin reoccurs, because we are in fleshly bodies until we leave this life. Paul said that in his flesh was no good thing, and also that the good he wanted to do, he didn't, and the evil he did not want to do, he did.

This shows us that even Paul struggled with fleshly desires. This "putting away the old man" is an ongoing thing, not an instantaneous gift. THIS is where the war is.

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Sister, thankk you for writing. Let me see if I canshed some light here.

When we reckon ouyrselves dead to the old nature and put it off and likewise put on the new man that has a heart that is obedient, there is a period of time that we are to become "established" in this amazing faith. We are told to put on the whole armor of God for this very reason. When we first do it, our faith is weak, trembling, but how it pleases Him that we look away from our own efforts, our own self control and admot we need a miracle.

Does the temptation come back. No doubt! And what mustit be met with? Our shild of faith as to who we are in Him. We are told that we are no longer in the flesh but in the spirit. We are told that NIW we are light in the Lord and it isthis very truth that becomes our shiled of faith that does what? It promises to quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy.

We are told that with every temptation,we are given a way of escape so that we will not cave into it? So powerful are these promises that we cling to by faith, that we can actually count it all joy when we are tempted, because as we trust God to bring us through and lean on Him to do what He has promised- to keep us from falling, out faith is strengthened even more.

This is when we begin to truly fight the good fight of faith, to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has set us free. We ARE new creatures in Christ. We are NOT in the flesh,but until we are willing to cimb out of the boat and believe, it will not profit us, not being mixed with faithinthem that heard it.

We uplift the heroes of faith in Hebrews but do you realize we are to be heroes as well? We are not called to simply believe that Jesus died for our sins and we are now saved. That is but the beginning. There are a multitude of amazing mnd blowing promises God has given us and we are told it by believing these exceeding great and precious promises that we... are you ready?.... become partakers of the divine nature.

THIS is how we are changed, by believing, and we must start with us and our battle with sin. God has called us to put on the new man, a man free to obey, a man wanting His will not ours and this is how we rid ourselves of our flesh and its grip on our hearts.

We are told that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Do we see that if we are part flesh and part spirit that this is exactly what we are...double minded? One foot in the world, wanting OUR will, one foot in Heaven, wanting His. It is a miserable existance,thw existence of thw wretched man of Romans 7, and we will be constantly frustrated in our efforts to walk as good sons and daughters of our loving Father until we finally see how much grace we truly need.

The old covenant, the law, said "Do and you shall live."

No so with the new covenant. It says "Live and you SHALL do."
for He has promised to "cause us" (his words, not mine) to will AND to do of His good pleasure.

We need a paradigm shift of monumental proportions. God has it for us if we are hungry enough. Once the church grabs hold of Him in brokenness for our lack of holiness, just watch what He will do. it is going to blow our minds.

Blessings,

Gideon

stormdancer0 said:

Paul said that in his flesh was no good thing, and also that the good he wanted to do, he didn't, and the evil he did not want to do, he did.

This shows us that even Paul struggled with fleshly desires. This "putting away the old man" is an ongoing thing, not an instantaneous gift. THIS is where the war is.

Click to expand...

I agree, Paul did say this and to whom was he talking to? Read the first verse of Romans 7.....to them that knew the law. This was not Paul's testimony with Christ in Him, for he said he could do all things through Christ who strengthend him. This was the testimony of the man knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, one Saul of Tarsus, pharisee of the pharisees.

How could this be Paul's testimony? He clearly states in Romans 6 how to get to Romans 8 but there is that darned Romans 7 seperating us from victory. If that is our example, we are ALL wretched men and we cannot stare any in the face and tell them with any level of honesty that the gospel will set them free.

How can we stand fast in libertythat Giod has given us, or hold up our shields of faith that WILL quench ALl the fiery arrows of the enemy, if we know we will fall in the end? How can we count it all joy when we are tempted if we fall in doing so? We are joyful BECAUSE God has promised to not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able to stand!

Do you see? We have been told that sin shall NOT have dominion over us. How we struggle to believe this. The reason is we are looking at obedience as something smack dab on OUR shoulders and it is not! Unless the word of God cannot be trusted for anything, and is a conflicting mass of half truths that none can truly stsnd upon and face satan square in the eye, Romans 7 is what we all must pass THROUGH, as God teaches us that our self effort, our own little law in our minds, rules we think we must keep to please Him, will not bring us victory. They cannot. BUT, He can, through the new covenant he has for allof us, and the weak ones will see it first! Praise God! We need grace to walk as new creatures. We need His strength. He has it for us.

"..and unto them that have NO strength, He increaseth might"

How do we arrive here, where we have no strength...NONE? The law, the schoolmaster must break us of all self confidence. This is the ultimate goal of the Romans 7 experience. We cannot slide into Romans 8 without passing through this valley of failure in our own strength. It is when we cry out with our whole hearts to be delivered from our carnal natures that we can then enter into the rest that remaineth for the people of God. And who enters into this rest?

"He that has ceased from his own labors enters into His rest"

Blessings,

Gideon

The feast of Pentcost or feasting of him is in picture the wandering in the wilderness between two mountains. It's a place of duality. Good and evil. Everythings there. The fowl/flesh, the water, the rock, the manna from heaven, the cross, the serpents, the law ... and the list goes on, shadow after shadow, analogy after analagy. This feast is ending, this is the coming up out of the wilderness and into the feast of tabernacles. This is the feast of being One with him. An entering into the ark or into the bridegooms chamber, a door opened in heaven, an entering into the land.

Our problem is we can't see the vast difference between our soul and our spirit nor do we understand what it means to be a son of God simply because the measure we meet it with is of the soul, which turns the truth into a lie. The love of the soul does all things for gain, it looks like it is right but it is all wrong. It looks pleasant to the eyes but this does not lead to Life.

I do not see that Paul is speaking of anyone but himself - and the person he was, even in Christ. I understand and agree with your doctrine, with only one caveat.

I do not think it is possible to live completely in the Spirit, never giving in to the flesh. With human nature, sin is somewhat inevitable, but we are to crucify the flesh and not give in. How possible is this, 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week for all the years of your life? Not very. Paul wrote, "Do not sin. But if you do, know that we have an advocate at the right hand of the Father, Jesus, who makes intercession for us."

Paul knew that the flesh is weak, and so are we. Jesus alone was able to walk and live in the Spirit 24/7. But this is because he was born with the holy nature of God, not the sinful nature of man.

The best we can do is a pitiful imitation. Yet that is what God asks of us. To do the best we can, and when we do mess up, come to God as our Father and ask for forgiveness. Then we can go on, and try to do better.

I think maybe you believe that it is possible for man to live a holy life. I am a holiness Pentecostal, and believe that it is possible, to a point. But I also know that anyone who says they do not sin is a liar, according to scripture. I try to live as holy a life as I can, but there are areas where God is still working on me. I fall a lot. But I know of few who do not. I quickly go to my Father and repent, and He gives me the strength to get up, lay it aside, and go on.

Yet I can honestly say I have no doubt that when Jesus returns, I'll go to Him as part of His bride. I am ready for Him to return.

The house Paul reffered to of which Jesus spoke of their being many of which houses are all in the Father's house, so to speak, is the same city that comes down from God (in Christ) but comes out of heaven. Both heaven and the kingdom are within. Paul was right, our life is hid in Christ. He who has the bride is the bridegroom, the Seed/Life of the woman. Just like Jesus' life was in the Father. Jesus' city descended upon him when he came up out of the waters. The heavens opened to him. If you follow the progression of Jesus' walk you find he followed Israel's progression starting with Abraham. He became the feast of tabernalces, he became I am, the Son of the Father. Our hose is reserved in heaven for us as well. Paul and the rest of them died waiting for this, to be clothed upon. We have over the last 2000 years have been clothing ourselves with a covering that is not of him, not of his Spirit. I'm not saying this was wrong. In babylon we were supposed to build houses and plant vineyards unto the time of our captivity was fulfilled. This is all the days of our separation. This separation is coming to an end. It's been two days, the third day he raises us up in his sight, to see as he sees. This is the coming up out of the wilderness leaning on her beloved. This is the feast of tabernacles. The duality is being called in, into the ark. Here the woman, our soul becomes a garden enclosed. Here she is no longer seeded from without, but rises above the waters even as Jesus who rose out of the waters of the jordan. Noah (Rest) built the ark and then the ark rested. "The end of all flesh has come before me."

This mind's/city's testimony is "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

gideons300 said:

How are we saved? I think we all fully agree that we are saved by grace alone. Period.

But here is where the issue lies. What must we do then to work the works of God in us? How do we truly obey all the time? That is the million dollar question. We all know we should obey, and of course we try, well, within reason, right? We don;t want to get fanatical about it after all. There must be balance. But our Lord told us that if our eye offends us cut it out? If our hand offends us, cut it off. Pretty radical stuff. Last time I lookedthere were still a bunch of people in church with two eyes and two hands, and tons of offenses remaining. How few walk that path of real true obedience 24/7/365. Why is this? No one has told us the key thing - HOW.

So, how can we obey? What is the secret?

If the truth is that it is not just about outward obedience, not committing adultery, or fornicating, etc, but about the heart of the matter, our heart, what acts of obedience can we do that will purify our minds, our thoughts, our innermost being? Is this not where our real battle lies? Is this not the elephant in the room no one wants to address?

No wonder people fall into the trap of doing outer works! We start out in grace, but then we are thrown onto our own strength, our own resolve, our own efforts to hold our flesh down. We tie it up, sit on it, discipline it, ignore it and all to no avail. It is still as active as ever. And if we do have moderate success with our efforts outwardly, we then become bonafide religious pharisees and are proud of our accomplishments.

This is the fly in the ointment we Christians fight with. How do we deal with our flesh? We all agree that it is all by grace that we are saved, but then what do we do from there? Our full obedience, heart obedience, must be by grace as well.

Our old nature, our fleshly nature is not to be disciplined into submission. This error is why men and women spend decades trying and not succeeding in real tangible growth into the likeness of our Lord. Our flesh must DIE, and not in the time payment plan. Please do not quote Paul saying "I die daily". In context here he was simply referring to the fact that as an apostle, he faced death every single day to spread the glorious gospel.

Paul tells us in Romans, by a radical act of faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and with his ressurection, to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, to put off our flesh as one gets out of a soiled garment. This is the conclusion to the radical acts Jesus listed to get us free indeed. it is not our hand or our eye that is the problem, it is our heart, and that heart, that old nature, it must die. In the same way, he tells us to put on the new man...by faith alone. We must believe we are new, that victory is ours...now.

We are asked to fight, but not for the victory, trying our best to attain it. This is works just as surely as if we try to work for our salvation. We are trying to work for our sanctification, but do we niot see? It is a gift! We are to fight IN the victory and with His strength in us, hold onto it. it is called the good fight of faith. We ARE new creatures and the old man is dead. Oh, if we but could be convinced first of our great need, and cry unto our Lord for deliverance!

This is our shield of faith, a shild that WORKS!. We are light in the Lord NOW. We have tried to "become light" by outer obedience, thinking that we will eventually get to the inside where the crud is. We never get there, do we?

New wine must be put into what? New wineskins! If we are believing that we are still the same old sinner, fighting the accusations of satan with our shield down, we will get our behinds handed to us just as we always have. But listen! We are NOT those same old fleshly sinners, we are now children of the most high, with Him inside us! If our shield is tucked away in the corner is it no wonder we are sitting ducks, and it is only a matter of time until we fall....again?

Blessings,

Gideon

Click to expand...

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Very good topic. Time to get my pennies out and put my 2 cents worth.
Quite from you,[But our Lord told us that if our eye offends us cut it out? If our hand offends us, cut it off. Pretty radical stuff]
Remember this is the Greek translation,no real spiritual revelation in it,all flesh no spirit. Look at it in the Hebrews meaning, spiritual eye, to see in the spirit. Our spirit man have a spirit eye .so when we walk in the spirit our view is in the spiritual realm,but sometimes there are other things in us that we need to get delivered from because it have control over your rightful spiritual eye and it can only show us disgusting things that are offensive. We need to cut it out.
Hands in the Hebrew mean source of provision. Once again the same idea as above. Something in our lives that is blocking the provisions of God in our lives and another source is your provider and what he provides is demonic garbage,time to get rid of that to.

The rest you wright about I call The wars of flesh and spirit.
Let me put it this way by using two Bible verse


1 John 1:8King James Version (KJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

1 John 3:9 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remainder in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


They may appear to contradict by some but they do not. The War starts over the Flesh nature but ! John 3-9 is the victory. The battle we fight from new birth to son ship. There is a progression in between new birth and son ship.

Here is one more verses to go along the same idea

Galatians 5:17New American Standard Bible (NASB)

17 For the flesh [a]sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
Footnotes: