The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
A house divided cannot stand, Mary asked Jesus to do it and He didn't appose.

When I talk about direct intervention, I am talking about doing something specifically that is the direct cause for somebody to sin. Jesus making intoxicating wine secretly for the wedding guests only would have contributed to their sin of drunkenness. Even if they do have free will, the Lord did not give them a test like in the Garden with two trees. Jesus did not set before the guests a choice like that. Jesus did not give a warning to the wedding guests and neither did He set before them a choice to: (a) drink his intoxicating beverage (that was supposed to be a miracle) that woud lead them to continue in the sin of drunkenness vs. (b) Not to drink of it (and thereby not sin).
 
Upvote 0

Edison Trent

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
155
15
55
Virginia
✟10,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, I understand that Christ turning water into wine is a miracle, but you are assuming that the juice was totally unlike the hint of grapes. Sure, if Jesus were to have created intoxicating wine (Which He didn't do), He would not have left out the elements that normally make up wine that people are familar with. If this was not the case, then they would not be drinking wine but something else.



Not the same thing. Adam was not a unique miracle of God whereby people were young before him. Adam was the first human being to be created directly by God. So Adam was unique. God did not skip any steps. That is how He designed the first man. For no man was every born before Adam. This is not the same as the miracle of Jesus of when He turned water into wine. The reason why Adam more than likely did not have a belly button was because he was created without any birth. God was not doing something out of the norm here unlike the miracle at the wedding of Cana.



Yeast is a type of sin. Also, the previous parables speak of something similar in Matthew 13:33. It's a pattern. In fact, after reading a recent article, I am now leaning towards the idea that the meaning in this parable in Matthew 13:33 has to do with God's Kingdom as a whole (not entirely) being corrupted by an apostate group or by wrong beliefs. The Kingdom of Heaven (Christianity as a whole in the end times or at the end of the the Millennium) is like unto leaven (sin that puffs up) that a woman (a false belief system or group) hid in three measures of meal (i.e. the teachings of Christ, possibley in: (1) Justification, (2) Sanctification, and (3) Being Ready for His Return at any moment) so as to corrupt God's Word or Christ's teachings. Then the end will come.



You are assuming that grape juice is nasty and that they drank strong intoxicating drink. Neither one is the case. The Jews diluted their wine and it was low in alcoholic content. Taste is what they would have focused on in their normal drink here because it was low in alcoholic conent. Jesus making new unfermented wine that did not need any alcoholic content to be good had impressed the guests. For it was the best tasting grape juice anyone has probably ever had in their entire lives. Pure and natural. It's good for you. It does not intoxicate. It is not something that you cannot give to little children. Jesus's miracle magnified His glory. This would be even to little children.

Also, stop and think for a moment. Alcohol is actually bad for mothers. They would not have known this back then. So are we to assume that Jesus made intoxicating drink that would have been bad for any expecting mothers? Surely not. Jesus loves people too much to do that.

Yeast is not a type of sin, yeast was only forbidden during some festivals, no where in the bible does it say people cannot eat unleavened ever.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yeast is not a type of sin, yeast was only forbidden during some festivals, no where in the bible does it say people cannot eat unleavened ever.

Yeast is a TYPE of sin in Bible language.
This means that while yeast is not sinful in itself (Meaning you can eat leavened bread, etc.), the Bible does speak of "yeast" with an evil or sinful connotation.

Ever heard of the leaven of the Pharisees?
Ever heard of the leaven of Herod?
 
Upvote 0

Edison Trent

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
155
15
55
Virginia
✟10,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When I talk about direct intervention, I am talking about doing something specifically that is the direct cause for somebody to sin. Jesus making intoxicating wine secretly for the wedding guests only would have contributed to their sin of drunkenness. Even if they do have free will, the Lord did not give them a test like in the Garden with two trees. Jesus did not set before the guests a choice like that. Jesus did not give a warning to the wedding guests and neither did He set before them a choice to: (a) drink his intoxicating beverage (that was supposed to be a miracle) that woud lead them to continue in the sin of drunkenness vs. (b) Not to drink of it (and thereby not sin).

In your theory then, Jesus being born caused people to sin, that is not a good example at all, Herod killed all the children under 2 years old, Judas turned Him in for money, and the Pharisees killed Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Jews diluted their wine and it was low in alcoholic content.

Probably about the same as light beer.

Taste is what they would have focused on in their normal drink here because it was low in alcoholic conent.

There is no doubt that the word oinos means (alcoholic) wine, and that it had the ordinary effects of alcohol. Both the Bible and Greek literature describe those effects.

Jesus making new unfermented wine that did not need any alcoholic content to be good had impressed the guests. For it was the best tasting grape juice anyone has probably ever had in their entire lives. Pure and natural. It's good for you. It does not intoxicate. It is not something that you cannot give to little children.

Very poetic. And totally wrong. Jesus made wine. Deal with it.
 
Upvote 0

Edison Trent

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
155
15
55
Virginia
✟10,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yeast is a TYPE of sin in Bible language.
This means that while yeast is not sinful in itself (Meaning you can eat leavened bread, etc.), the Bible does speak of "yeast" with an evil or sinful connotation.

Ever heard of the leaven of the Pharisees?
Ever heard of the leaven of Herod?

Correct the yeast in the wine was not sinful in itself.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In your theory then, Jesus being born caused people to sin, that is not a good example at all, Herod killed all the children under 2 years old, Judas turned Him in for money, and the Pharisees killed Jesus.

No. Not the same thing. Just because Jesus was born does not mean He contributed to their sin. They chose of their own free will choice to sin and do evil. They would have sinned and done sinful things regardless. Jesus creating a miracle secretly that adds to mens' drunkenness (that is a sin) would be a direct intervention of doing something wrong.

Jesus being born was not a promotion of sin. But if Jesus made an intoxicating drink secretly for guests who were already in their sin of drunkenness would be just a mere contribution of sin. That is wrong. Not sure how you cannot see this.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Correct the yeast in the wine was not sinful in itself.

But if one drinks alcohol knowing they are going to get intoxicated, it is sinful. Jesus making more intoxicating beverage secretly for guests who were already committing the sin of drunkenness would have been morally wrong on Jesus's part. It would been a direct contribution to their sin.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Probably about the same as light beer.



There is no doubt that the word oinos means (alcoholic) wine, and that it had the ordinary effects of alcohol. Both the Bible and Greek literature describe those effects.



Very poetic. And totally wrong. Jesus made wine. Deal with it.

Please carefully read my six points in Scripture in the OP by way of prayer.
Then get back to me.
 
Upvote 0

Edison Trent

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
155
15
55
Virginia
✟10,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No. Not the same thing. Just because Jesus was born does not mean He contributed to their sin. They chose of their own free will choice to sin and do evil. They would have sinned and done sinful things regardless. Jesus creating a miracle secretly that adds to mens' drunkenness (that is a sin) would be a direct intervention of doing something wrong.

Jesus being born was not a promotion of sin. But if Jesus made an intoxicating drink secretly for guests who were already in their sin of drunkenness would be just a mere contribution of sin. That is wrong. Not sure how you cannot see this.

Jesus didn't create the miracle in secret His mother and brothers knew, the servents knew, and anybody who was standing there knew, master of the banquet didn't know. And the bible doesn't not say that all Acohol is not to be consumed.

Yes you can post verses about not drinking, and I can post verses about drinking wine is ok, the bible says don't let it control you become of a lust.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jesus didn't create the miracle in secret His mother and brothers knew, the servents knew, and anybody who was standing there knew, master of the banquet didn't know. And the bible doesn't not say that all Acohol is not to be consumed.

Okay, that's great then. They knew He made an intoxicating beverage that contributed to their sin. Sure, that's a great testimony. :rolleyes:

But you are missing the point. The wedding guests did not know that Jesus was going to contribute to their drunkenness (if what you say is true).

You said:
Yes you can post verses about not drinking, and I can post verses about drinking wine is ok, the bible says don't let it control you become of a lust.

It seems to me that "Don't let it control you" went out the door when Jesus contributed to their drunkenness in secret at the Wedding party (if Jesus did indeed make intoxicating wine).

But if what you say is true, there should be NO verses about how strong drink is bad.
For Scriptures says it stings like an adder. Do not look at wine when it is red. Woe unto those who give their neighbor strong drink, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Edison Trent

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
155
15
55
Virginia
✟10,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Okay, that's great then. They knew He made an intoxicating beverage that contributed to their sin. Sure, that's a great testimony. :rolleyes:

But you are missing the point. The wedding guests did not know that Jesus was going to contribute to their drunkenness (if what you say is true).



It seems to me that "Don't let it control you" went out the door when Jesus contributed to their drunkenness in secret at the Wedding party (if Jesus did indeed make intoxicating wine).

But if what you say is true, there should be NO verses about how strong drink is bad.
For Scriptures says it stings like an adder. Do not look at wine when it is red. Woe unto those who give their neighbor strong drink, etc.

That is your testimony that the wine was a contribution to sin, I don't agree with that at all.

show me in scripture that the guest did not know, the only person that scripture says did not know is the master of the banquet that is it, you saying the guest didn't know is pure speculation.

And if you say is true there should be no verses saying drink wine with a joyful heart.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Edison Trent

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
155
15
55
Virginia
✟10,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Okay, that's great then. They knew He made an intoxicating beverage that contributed to their sin. Sure, that's a great testimony. :rolleyes:

But you are missing the point. The wedding guests did not know that Jesus was going to contribute to their drunkenness (if what you say is true).



It seems to me that "Don't let it control you" went out the door when Jesus contributed to their drunkenness in secret at the Wedding party (if Jesus did indeed make intoxicating wine).

But if what you say is true, there should be NO verses about how strong drink is bad.
For Scriptures says it stings like an adder. Do not look at wine when it is red. Woe unto those who give their neighbor strong drink, etc.

That is your testimony that the wine was a contribution to sin, I don't agree with that at all.

show me in scripture that the guest did not know, the only person that scripture says did not know is the master of the banquet that is it, you saying the guest didn't know is pure speculation.

And if what you say is true there should be no verses saying drink wine with a joyful heart.
 
Upvote 0

Edison Trent

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
155
15
55
Virginia
✟10,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Deuteronomy 29:2-6 “And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: ‘You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet. You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.'”

The above passage has Moses describing the glories of God that the people saw and also stressing that they had endured trials in the wilderness. He speaks of the miraculous provision for them, but also of God’s keeping them from the normal joys of life–eating bread and drinking wine and strong drink. God did all of this so they would know that He was their God, yet they had no spiritual circumcision of heart to appreciate that. The point I am drawing out is that not having wine and strong drink was a hardship, exactly parallel to not having bread. Bread is good, and so is wine and strong drink. (See also Dt. 28:39, Micah 6:15, and Zeph. 1:13)
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That is your testimony that the wine was a contribution to sin, I don't agree with that at all.

show me in scripture that the guest did not know, the only person that scripture says did not know is the master of the banquet that is it, you saying the guest didn't know is pure speculation.

And if what you say is true there should be no verses saying drink wine with a joyful heart.

Even if the guests did know, Jesus still made a substance that helped them to continue in their sin (if the wine was intoxicating as you say).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Deuteronomy 29:2-6 “And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: ‘You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet. You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.'”

The above passage has Moses describing the glories of God that the people saw and also stressing that they had endured trials in the wilderness. He speaks of the miraculous provision for them, but also of God’s keeping them from the normal joys of life–eating bread and drinking wine and strong drink. God did all of this so they would know that He was their God, yet they had no spiritual circumcision of heart to appreciate that. The point I am drawing out is that not having wine and strong drink was a hardship, exactly parallel to not having bread. Bread is good, and so is wine and strong drink. (See also Dt. 28:39, Micah 6:15, and Zeph. 1:13)

They did not have strong drink and wine because God was against them having it. We cannot infer that the strong drink was on the same level of bread. Yes, they purchased wine and strong drink (Deuteronomy 14:26); But they diluted it with water when they drank it for recreational purposes or for holy days. Deuteronomy 32:14 says they drank of the pure blood of the grape (grape juice), but in Deuteronomy 32:33 and Deuteronomy 32:37-38, it says there is a wine that is like the poison of dragons (verse 33), and a wine that was of false gods from drink offerings.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,434
11,981
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,167,724.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I understand that Christ turning water into wine is a miracle, but you are assuming that the juice was totally unlike the hint of grapes.
No, I never suggested anything of the sort. Seems like attacking strawmen is your last recourse.
Sure, if Jesus were to have created intoxicating wine (Which He didn't do)
Your erroneous opinion.
He would not have left out the elements that normally make up wine that people are familar with. If this was not the case, then they would not be drinking wine but something else.
More of your straw man.
Not the same thing. Adam was not a unique miracle of God whereby people were young before him. Adam was the first human being to be created directly by God. So Adam was unique. God did not skip any steps. That is how He designed the first man. For no man was every born before Adam. This is not the same as the miracle of Jesus of when He turned water into wine. The reason why Adam more than likely did not have a belly button was because he was created without any birth. God was not doing something out of the norm here unlike the miracle at the wedding of Cana.
So are you now claiming that Christ first turned the water into grapes, then miraculously crushed and strained the grapes and then miraculously removed the skins and seeds. Those are all the steps in making what you claim was grape juice. If That is not what you are claiming then what is your point?
Yeast is a type of sin.
Not in an absolute sense as you wish it to be.
Also, the previous parables speak of something similar in Matthew 13:33. It's a pattern. In fact, after reading a recent article, I am now leaning towards the idea that the meaning in this parable in Matthew 13:33 has to do with God's Kingdom as a whole (not entirely) being corrupted by an apostate group or by wrong beliefs. The Kingdom of Heaven (Christianity as a whole in the end times or at the end of the the Millennium) is like unto leaven (sin that puffs up) that a woman (a false belief system or group) hid in three measures of meal (i.e. the teachings of Christ, possibley in: (1) Justification, (2) Sanctification, and (3) Being Ready for His Return at any moment) so as to corrupt God's Word or Christ's teachings. Then the end will come.
I don't believe I have heard a more blasphemous twisting of God's Word.
You are assuming that grape juice is nasty and that they drank strong intoxicating drink.
You have no comprehension of what I have written and attribute something completely false to me. Incredible. I guess that makes it easier to avoid adressing the point I made.
Neither one is the case. The Jews diluted their wine and it was low in alcoholic content. Taste is what they would have focused on in their normal drink here because it was low in alcoholic conent. Jesus making new unfermented wine that did not need any alcoholic content to be good had impressed the guests. For it was the best tasting grape juice anyone has probably ever had in their entire lives. Pure and natural. It's good for you. It does not intoxicate. It is something that you can give to little children. Jesus's miracle magnified His glory.
I'm well aware of your opinion, wrong as it is.
Also, stop and think for a moment. Alcohol is actually bad for mothers. They would not have known this back then.
Wild assumption on your part. The more we learn about ancient civilisations, the more we discover that they had a deep knowledge of how different herbs and drinks affected them.
So are we to assume that Jesus made intoxicating drink that would have been bad for any expecting mothers? Surely not. Jesus loves people too much to do that.
Having run out of arguments, you now resort to making up fanciful scenarios built on your earlier baseless assumptions.
 
Upvote 0