God appears to Abraham at Mamre; (GEN 18:1-22:24)

CherubRam said:

In other words, there are scriptures that you do not like.

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Not at all. When you understand the dual nature of the Messiah, that he was fully and truly man as well as fully and truly God, then all the scriptures fit. The scriptures that show his humanity fit with the part that he was fully and truly man. It's just not a contradiction with Trinitarianism.

Open Heart said:

Not at all. When you understand the dual nature of the Messiah, that he was fully and truly man as well as fully and truly God, then all the scriptures fit. The scriptures that show his humanity fit with the part that he was fully and truly man. It's just not a contradiction with Trinitarianism.

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Care to explain these verses?

Yahshua directed us to worship Yahwah only, and stated that he does not accept any glory from mankind.

John 5:41
“I do not accept (glorification / praise / worship / honor) from human beings,

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God, and serve him only.’ ”

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God and serve him only.’ ”

In the scripture he is quoting, "the Lord" is Yahwah. Yahshua also rebuked the woman, saying he did not have the authority to decide who sits by him.


Matthew 20:23
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”


John 17:3-5.
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

T

Open Heart said:

They are not part of either of the two MJ denominations, and they are certainly not common or representational.

There are Nestorian churches, but I would never say that Christianity allows for Nestorianism. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Sidebar: I'm just curious. Assuming that your congregation is arian rather than trinitarian, do you accept trinitarians as members? Or only fellow arians?

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Non-trinitarians are the minority.

Trinitarianism is a well beaten path. I do know that if I do not believe in Trinitarianism, that I would not be allowed to be a member.

CherubRam said:

Care to explain these verses?

Yahshua directed us to worship Yahwah only, and stated that he does not accept any glory from mankind.

John 5:41
“I do not accept (glorification / praise / worship / honor) from human beings,

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God, and serve him only.’ ”

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God and serve him only.’ ”

In the scripture he is quoting, "the Lord" is Yahwah. Yahshua also rebuked the woman, saying he did not have the authority to decide who sits by him.


Matthew 20:23
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”


John 17:3-5.
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

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This has already been explained to you - he was speaking from his humanity, not from his G_dly side, which he he set aside to be as one of us (Philippians 2 for example or Luke 1 & 2). That is why, when he laid down his human life to die for us, it was not G_d that died. Having died a very human death, he then returned to the Father to resume his position as was before his incarnation.

In his humanity, he did not accept any worship or glory for himself but told everyone to worship the Father, not what he was - a human being, albeit emanu El. How could he possibly give tacit support to the concept of worshipping humans?

CherubRam said:

T


Non-trinitarians are the minority.

Trinitarianism is a well beaten path. I do know that if I do not believe in Trinitarianism, that I would not be allowed to be a member.

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Your answer is confusing to me. I thought you went to a non-Trinitarian congregation. I guess not.

When I attended a UMJC congregation for a while, there were a few non-Trinitarians (you could count them on one hand) and I believe they were members of the congregation, but don't quote me on that--it's just too long ago. I certainly treated them no differently. But then, they weren't trying to argue the MJ shouldn't be trinitarian either.

CherubRam said:

Care to explain these verses?

Yahshua directed us to worship Yahwah only, and stated that he does not accept any glory from mankind.

John 5:41
“I do not accept (glorification / praise / worship / honor) from human beings,

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CONTEXT. Context is everything. Jesus most certainly accepted worship and praise from men (Matthew 14:33; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). Jesus' point in this passage is that whether or not people accept Him is completely and totally irrelevant—rather, what he says is true.

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God, and serve him only.’ ”

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship (the Lord / Yahwah) your God and serve him only.’ ”

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This is just a no brainer. Is it right for anyone, even God himself, to worship the Devil?

In the scripture he is quoting, "the Lord" is Yahwah. Yahshua also rebuked the woman, saying he did not have the authority to decide who sits by him.


Matthew 20:23
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

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Again, you seem not to understand what the Trinity means. On God, three persons. The three distinct persons do different things. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father, even though they are of the same essence.

[/quote]John 17:3-5.
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.[/QUOTE]I don't understand what your question is regarding this verse. The Father is the only true God. And the Son is also the only true God. There is nothing in this verse that contradicts this.

Open Heart said:

CONTEXT. Context is everything. Jesus most certainly accepted worship and praise from men (Matthew 14:33; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). Jesus' point in this passage is that whether or not people accept Him is completely and totally irrelevant—rather, what he says is true.

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Just to clarify - my point was that he never taught or told people to worship him, only to worship the Father. That they did worship him a few times is not the same issue.

Heber Book List said:

Just to clarify - my point was that he never taught or told people to worship him, only to worship the Father. That they did worship him a few times is not the same issue.

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That he ALLOWED them to worship him is pretty pertinent.

Open Heart said:

That he ALLOWED them to worship him is pretty pertinent.

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Not so sure - once it is done they cannot really take it back, and we do not know what he may have said in response to it, but 3 or 4 times in 30+ years is hardly a record of something he sought from his followers. If you recall, he rejected the appellation 'good', saying only the Father is good, that appellation is a very minor issue, but it was immediately rejected.

We have no record of him teaching that humans can / must be worshipped - in fact, as CR points out, we do have a number of records of him telling people to worship only G_d the Father.

Heber Book List said:

Not so sure - once it is done they cannot really take it back, and we do not know what he may have said in response to it, but 3 or 4 times in 30+ years is hardly a record of something he sought from his followers. If you recall, he rejected the appellation 'good', saying only the Father is good, that appellation is a very minor issue, but it was immediately rejected.

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He taught all the time! He corrected the adulteress, telling her to go and sin no more. Do you think he allowed the tax collectors to think it was okay to cheat, or the prostitutes to think it was okay to sell their bodies? He certainly didn't allow the Pharisees to think that their mild hypocrisy was anything like okay. So why wouldn't he teach those who worshiped him that it was idolatry ad a sin...unless it wasn't?

Open Heart said:

CONTEXT. Context is everything. Jesus most certainly accepted worship and praise from men (Matthew 14:33; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). Jesus' point in this passage is that whether or not people accept Him is completely and totally irrelevant—rather, what he says is true.

This is just a no brainer. Is it right for anyone, even God himself, to worship the Devil?


Again, you seem not to understand what the Trinity means. On God, three persons. The three distinct persons do different things. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father, even though they are of the same essence.

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John 17:3-5.
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.[/QUOTE]I don't understand what your question is regarding this verse. The Father is the only true God. And the Son is also the only true God. There is nothing in this verse that contradicts this.[/QUOTE]

In regards to:
Matthew 20:23
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

The Trinity doctrine states that they are coequal.
According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths, there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Council of the Lateran declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds"); and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and each is God, whole and entire.

CherubRam said:

The Trinity doctrine states that they are coequal.
According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths, there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Council of the Lateran declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds"); and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and each is God, whole and entire.

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But the Father and the Son exist in a familial relationship with one another. While objectively they are co-equal, the Son acts in submission to the Father. Do you see? It's the roles of the Father and Son, even though they are equal.

You do realize that Christians would not consider you to be a "Non-Trinitarian" based on your above reply/belief. Being that you believe both the Son and the Father are the only true God with the Holy Spirit being integral to the fullness of the manifestation of the only true God (aka the triune manifest nature of God).


Both the Son and the Father are certainly more "coequal" than "unequal" with both being the only true God as you rightly believe. Perhaps "manifestations" instead of "persons" as "persons" gives the impression of two god(s)/God(s). Rabbinic Judaism mistakenly believes that Christians worship more than one god/God based apparently on their misunderstanding of "persons" in their denial of Yahshua/Yeshua as *"the Son is also the only true God" (and the indwelling presence of Ruach HaKodesh in a born again Believer).

The stumbling downfall of Rabbinic Judaism is: (1) Their denial of Messiah Yeshua; (2) Their denial of the Deity of God (Col. 2:9); and (3) their resistance to the indwelling presence of Ruach HaKodesh as integral to the born again Believer (John 3:5-8).

Dare i say that even today within both Messianic Judaism and Christendom there are those that don't believe the supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:1-11) are for today's followers of God.

AbbaLove said:

You do realize that Christians would not consider you to be a "Non-Trinitarian" based on your above reply/belief. Being that you believe both the Son and the Father are the only true God with the Holy Spirit being integral to the fullness of the manifestation of the only true God (aka the triune manifest nature of God).

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I think you were getting shreds of a quote of me in that post. if you go examine it closely, you'll see the [/quote] that is out of place. I could only wish the CR were a trinitarian. Someday perhaps.

OK ... see the mixup having gone back and read #46 ... Yes, hopefully someday .


The contradiction of a "non-trinitarian" is that they view the Son of God as a "god" even though Yeshua has the authority to forgive sin (Matthew 9:1-8, Mark 2:8-11, Luke 5:17-26), as well as raising Lazarus back to life after being dead in the tomb for four days. The Father and Son are One (John 10:30, Deuteronomy 6:4).


Certainly Yahshua/Yeshua is more than just a "god" which implies that a "non-trinitarian" only worships the one true God (YHWH) and does not worship Yeshua that they consider only a "god" of a lower status than the One True God. So when the One True God manifests Himself in physical form as in Genesis 18:1, WHY is it seemingly impossible for a "non-trinitarian" to *visualize the physical manifestation of God as the exact physical manifestation of Yeshua (Genesis 18:1). Me thinks they do protest the RCC "trinity" doctrine too much in their desire to distinguish Messianic Judaism from Christianity ... when in fact "non-trinitarians" acknowledge the Three-In-One nature of YHWH.

Me thinks that those that call themselves "non-trinitarians" do so more as a protest against the word "trinity" as being a contrived word by the RCC that is not found in the Torah. And yet they believe in the Three-In-One manifestation of YHWH ... Go Figure!

Heber Book List said:

I am talking about your integrity and the overall rules on the site. Are you not supposed to agree with the basic tenets of the Christian Forums (sic) creed to post here? Are you supposed to not argue against the Trinity, if you do post on these fora?

FYI of the things you post above I do not agree with the 1st, the 2nd is immaterial - it is the purpose and outcome that is important, the Tanach supports the 3rd and the 4th is heresy!

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I agree, the only reason to continue such is to disrupt.

CherubRam said:

Years ago Trinitarians murdered Non-trinitarians. They promoted a Sunday Sabbath, they claimed Christ was hung on a cross and not a stake, that there is a Hell, the Pope is God on earth; and other such things.

It is plain to see what side you are on.

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CR: don't confuse culture with theology. If you go back in time, you will find that it becomes the norm to believe that i.e. it is better to kill a heretic than to allow them to endanger the immortal souls of countless others. You'll find that Arians as well as Trinitarians shared this view. Thankfully today Trinitarians and Arians no longer have that outlook. Agreed?