Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Der Alte

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You've shown no proof for the words aion, aionios, olam or ad being defined as "eternal" (or "forever") in every occurrence of the Scriptures or Koine Greek in general, except when used in hyperbole.
I do not have to show that. Can you show me any other theologically significant Greek word which has two completely different meanings? Can you show me where aion or aionios is described or defined as I have shown with Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, Philemon 1:15, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1
Likewise you've also shown no proof that any of these words have the same definition & usage as the English words "eternal" or "forever".
I have found that it is very helpful to actually read something before responding. Did you even read and try to understand what I was saying? Evidently not because I did not say or imply that any of the words which I referenced in the vss. listed above had "the same definition and usage as the English words 'eternal' and 'forever'." Look up the meaning of "define" and "describe", those are the words I used.

Here is a verse which does the same thing
Isaiah 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful [צְבִי/tsebiy] and glorious, [כָּבוֹד/kabod] and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely
There are two words which define or describe Lord. צְבִי which means beautiful, the second word can mean "weight" or "glorious." Which meaning more closely relates to "beautiful?" There are two words which describe earth, "excellent" and "comely." The second word can mean "comely" or "brave." Which meaning most closely relates to "excellent?"
 
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ClementofA

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I have found that it is very helpful to actually read something before responding. Did you even read and try to understand what I was saying? Evidently not because I did not say or imply that any of the words which I referenced in the vss. listed above had "the same definition and usage as the English words 'eternal' and 'forever'."

I refer to the - many - times you've made statements like the following in discussions re the definition of aion & aionios, in the context of your unusual view that they always are defined as meaning "eternal" (except in hyperbole). Evidently your idea of an illustration of hyperbole in this context is:

Whenever someone says e.g. "My trip lasted forever." does that change the meaning of forever?

I could multiply similar comments re the English word "forever" many times, as used by you, in the context of discussions re the definition of aion & aionios, olam & ad. Another example:

Used hyperbolically. Remember the 18 vss. I quoted which define olam. Here are two from the 18.
Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,
hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.
Isaiah 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell
therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
In this vs. “olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “forever” does.

[1]. If your theory that "forever" is the one & only definition of OLAM, then why have you been unable to produce a single lexicon, church father or commentator in the past 2000 years
who agrees with you?

[2] If your theory is correct, then Scripture opposes endless punishment & agrees with me that is a false dogma:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

7 Myths About Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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Can you show me where aion or aionios is described or defined as I have shown with Hebrews 7:4, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, Philemon 1:15, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1

How is it a few verses out of hundreds can define the word for all those hundreds of occurrences and in Koine Greek in general? What lexicon, church father or commentator in the past 3000 years has agreed with you? You've been asked this a number of times & in months have produced nothing.

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
 
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ClementofA

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Der Alte

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How is it a few verses out of hundreds can define the word for all those hundreds of occurrences and in Koine Greek in general? What lexicon, church father or commentator in the past 3000 years has agreed with you? You've been asked this a number of times & in months have produced nothing.
There is a big difference between "define"/"describe" and "use." You might want to look those up in a dictionary. Can you show me any verse(s) which "define" or "describe" the words aion/aionios as something other than eternity/eternal as I did in the 13 verses I listed above?
.....I reviewed every occurrence of the words aion/aionios in the NT. The words are sometimes used to refer to something which is not eternity/eternal but I was not able to find a single occurrence where either is actually defined or described as something other than eternity/eternal.

* * * Link omitted * * *
Beauchemin has not stated or demonstrated that he has any expertise in Theology or Greek. So why should anyone read anything he wrote?
 
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Der Alte

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. . .
[1]. If your theory that "forever" is the one & only definition of OLAM, then why have you been unable to produce a single lexicon, church father or commentator in the past 2000 years
who agrees with you?
Logical fallacy, argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
[2] If your theory is correct, then Scripture opposes endless punishment & agrees with me that is a false dogma:
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.
Agenda driven cherry picking and selective quoting. Anyone can prove almost anything by cherry picking and selective quoting scripture. This is correct "the Lord will not cast off for ever" but read a little further there is a condition Why did God cast off and what is the condition for returning to God?
Lamentations 3:42-44
(42) We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
(43) Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
(44) Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
Lamentations 3:55-57
(55) I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.
(56) Thou hast heard my voice: hide not thine ear at my breathing, at my cry.
(57) Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon thee: thou saidst, Fear not.
Here is another verse which states the same condition.
Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
The converse of this is "If you do not return to me I will not return to you."
 
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ClementofA

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There is a big difference between "define"/"describe" and "use." You might want to look those up in a dictionary. Can you show me any verse(s) which "define" or "describe" the words aion/aionios as something other than eternity/eternal as I did in the 13 verses I listed above?
.....I reviewed every occurrence of the words aion/aionios in the NT. The words are sometimes used to refer to something which is not eternity/eternal but I was not able to find a single occurrence where either is actually defined or described as something other than eternity/eternal.

Previously you stated aion & aionios are "defined" as eternal.

Previously when told of NT references to "end of the aion" you responded with remarks about hyperbole. The implication being you think that usage is hyperbole.

Previously i often referred to your view that aion, aionios , olam & ad are always "defined" as meaning "eternal" & only "eternal" in Scripture, except when used in hyperbole. Your responses have defended this & implied that is your view.

Now you say above that "in the NT. The words are sometimes used to refer to something which is not eternity/eternal...". Where is that? Do you think these occurrences of aion/aionios are hyperbole? Or are you changing your view?

Beauchemin has not stated or demonstrated that he has any expertise in Theology or Greek. So why should anyone read anything he wrote?

Der Alter...has not stated or demonstrated that he has any expertise in Theology or Greek. So why should anyone read anything he wrote?
 
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Der Alte

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Previously you stated aion & aionios are "defined" as eternal.
Previously when told of NT references to "end of the aion" you responded with remarks about hyperbole. The implication being you think that usage is hyperbole.
Previously i often referred to your view that aion, aionios , olam & ad are always "defined" as meaning "eternal" & only "eternal" in Scripture, except when used in hyperbole. Your responses have defended this & implied that is your view.
Now you say above that "in the NT. The words are sometimes used to refer to something which is not eternity/eternal...". Where is that? Do you think these occurrences of aion/aionios are hyperbole? Or are you changing your view?
Why did you quote my post then not respond to anything I said in that post rather arguing about something I said in a previous post?
Der Alter...has not stated or demonstrated that he has any expertise in Theology or Greek. So why should anyone read anything he wrote?
Der Alter does not present himself as an authority on anything, has not published any books and is not quoted or linked to as an atuhority.
 
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ClementofA

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Why did you quote my post then not respond to anything I said in that post rather arguing about something I said in a previous post?

Actually my reply was a response, especially regarding your 2nd paragraph. I even quoted it. In fact i quoted you from both paragraphs in my response.

Why didn't you respond to & answer this:

Previously you stated aion & aionios are "defined" as eternal.

Previously when told of NT references to "end of the aion" you responded with remarks about hyperbole. The implication being you think that usage is hyperbole.

Previously i often referred to your view that aion, aionios , olam & ad are always "defined" as meaning "eternal" & only "eternal" in Scripture, except when used in hyperbole. Your responses have defended this & implied that is your view.

Now you say above that "in the NT. The words are sometimes used to refer to something which is not eternity/eternal...". Where is that? Do you think these occurrences of aion/aionios are hyperbole? Or are you changing your view?


Der Alter does not present himself as an authority on anything, has not published any books and is not quoted or linked to as an atuhority.

Then why do you have a view (see above) that you have failed to produce a single concurring lexicon, church father or commentator in the past 2000 years?

Why are so many lexicons & other authorities opposed to your view?

Why don't you abandon your view & concur instead with BDAG, LSJ, TDNT, etc?

Do you think you know more than they do?

Figure that out for yourself. A 20th century lexicon would certainly be more reliable than a 19th century.

Then you should consider changing your opinion re aionios. Since now you are closer to the 19th century opinion of Thayer than 21st century BDAG. BDAG disagrees with you. So who is wrong & in error, you or BDAG?

BTW BDAG says nothing about aion or aionios ever being used in hyperbole. Whereas you evidently think they often are.

You also have been unable to quote a single lexicon, church father or commentary in the past 4000 years that supports your viewpoint.

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
The Eons
EONS AND WORLDS
 
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Der Alte

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Actually my reply was a response, especially regarding your 2nd paragraph. I even quoted it. In fact i quoted you from both paragraphs in my response.
Why didn't you respond to & answer this:
Previously you stated aion & aionios are "defined" as eternal.
What I suggest you do is go back to a specific post where I speak about defining, quote me exactly and discuss what I said in context.
Previously when told of NT references to "end of the aion" you responded with remarks about hyperbole. The implication being you think that usage is hyperbole.
That is correct. And I have not been proven wrong.
Previously i often referred to your view that aion, aionios , olam & ad are always "defined" as meaning "eternal" & only "eternal" in Scripture, except when used in hyperbole. Your responses have defended this & implied that is your view.
See my reply above about quoting me in context.
Now you say above that "in the NT. The words are sometimes used to refer to something which is not eternity/eternal...". Where is that? Do you think these occurrences of aion/aionios are hyperbole? Or are you changing your view?
Context! Context! Context!
Then why do you have a view (see above) that you have failed to produce a single concurring lexicon, church father or commentator in the past 2000 years?
Actually I have provided evidence from scripture supporting my view for which no argument has been presented. I posted 13 passages which define/describe aion/aionios by contrast or apposition i.e. "a relationship between two or more words or phrases in which the two units are grammatically parallel and have the same referent." I even provided a vs. from the OT with the same grammatical structure.
Why are so many lexicons & other authorities opposed to your view?
Do any of those references actually disprove anything I have posted or is this a logical fallacy, argument from silence.
Why don't you abandon your view & concur instead with BDAG, LSJ, TDNT, etc?
Why don't you since you think they contradict each other.
Do you think you know more than they do?
No but I think I have found a scriptural argument which none of them have recognized yet, which I intend to bring to the attention of some of the current scholars.
Then you should consider changing your opinion re aionios. Since now you are closer to the 19th century opinion of Thayer than 21st century BDAG. BDAG disagrees with you. So who is wrong & in error, you or BDAG?
See above. None of them disagree with me they simply do not present the arguments I have, yet.
BTW BDAG says nothing about aion or aionios ever being used in hyperbole. Whereas you evidently think they often are.
You also have been unable to quote a single lexicon, church father or commentary in the past 4000 years that supports your viewpoint.
Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Although Origen in his commentary on John does make the same argument I have in book 13, 60. Here Origen defines/describes eternal life as "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""[is not] consumed" and "[does not] perish."

(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
 
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ClementofA

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What I suggest you do is go back to a specific post where I speak about defining, quote me exactly and discuss what I said in context.

Why? Are you too shy to state what your definition of aion, aionios, olam & ad are? Namely "eternal", "forever". And never of finite duration, except when used in hyperbole. There, i said it for you. And you keep defending it.


That is correct. And I have not been proven wrong.

See my reply above about quoting me in context.

Context! Context! Context!

See my comment above.

Actually I have provided evidence from scripture supporting my view for which no argument has been presented.

You provided a view "for which no argument has been presented"?

I posted 13 passages which define/describe aion/aionios by contrast or apposition i.e. "a relationship between two or more words or phrases in which the two units are grammatically parallel and have the same referent." I even provided a vs. from the OT with the same grammatical structure.


Why should i care?

And what scholars support this view?

In any case, aionios in Mt.25:41, 46 refers to a finite duration of punishment, as Scripture proves. Also there are scholars & Church Fathers that concur, such as in quotes i gave you the other day from Origen. So, again, why should i care about your apposition theory?


Do any of those references actually disprove anything I have posted or is this a logical fallacy, argument from silence.

Just looking at BDAG, LSJ & TDNT basic definitions they oppose your definition of aion as eternal & only eternal everywhere in the NT (hyperbole excepted). Let alone the LXX & Koine Greek in general.

Why don't you since you think they contradict each other.

Lexicons do contradict each other, as do scholars. Those are simply obvious facts.

My definition of aion is in accord with the statement i quoted from LSJ lexicon, as you are already aware. Yours isn't. So who is wrong, LSJ or you?

No but I think I have found a scriptural argument which none of them have recognized yet, which I intend to bring to the attention of some of the current scholars.


What qualifies you for this?


See above. None of them disagree with me they simply do not present the arguments I have, yet.

They evidently oppose your definition of aion as eternal & only eternal everywhere in the NT (hyperbole excepted).


Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Although Origen in his commentary on John does make the same argument I have in book 13, 60. Here Origen defines/describes eternal life as "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""[is not] consumed" and "[does not] perish."
(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.

Even if one context describes aionios as eternal, why should i care? Philo, at the time of Christ, spoke of an unlimited aion. Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Or does it mean aion needed another word meaning eternal added to it to make it eternal because the word aion, in and of itself, does not mean eternal?

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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Der Alte

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Why? Are you too shy to state what your definition of aion, aionios, olam & ad are? Namely "eternal", "forever". And never of finite duration, except when used in hyperbole. There, i said it for you. And you keep defending it.
I think that is what I have been explaining all along.
You provided a view "for which no argument has been presented"?
In any case, aionios in Mt.25:41, 46 refers to a finite duration of punishment, as Scripture proves. Also there are scholars & Church Fathers that concur, such as in quotes i gave you the other day from Origen. So, again, why should i care about your apposition theory?

Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
" [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ … To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

Just looking at BDAG, LSJ & TDNT basic definitions they oppose your definition of aion as eternal & only eternal everywhere in the NT (hyperbole excepted). Let alone the LXX & Koine Greek in general.
Have you found any source that actually states my view is wrong?
Lexicons do contradict each other, as do scholars. Those are simply obvious facts.
A different interpretation is not a contradiction. If one scholar proves another scholar wrong that would be a contradiction. I posted an example in a review previously where an earlier scholar was found to have been wrong.
My definition of aion is in accord with the statement i quoted from LSJ lexicon, as you are already aware. Yours isn't. So who is wrong, LSJ or you?
Good for you.
Even if one context describes aionios as eternal, why should i care? Philo, at the time of Christ, spoke of an unlimited aion. Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Or does it mean aion needed another word meaning eternal added to it to make it eternal because the word aion, in and of itself, does not mean eternal?
Where specifically did Philo speak of an unlimited aion? Remember the source that you quoted, Origen commentary on John" In para. 60, Origen said "eternal life,'never perishes,''remains."is not taken away,"[is not] consumed,"[does not] perish'"
 
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Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
" [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ … To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).



"St. Jerome (342-420), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible and whose jealousy got him into an ugly scandal that stained the church, writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures."

Was Universalism a major view of the Early Church?


"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis[universalism], and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory


The Church Fathers on Universalism
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church
 
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"St. Jerome (342-420), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible and whose jealousy got him into an ugly scandal that stained the church, writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures."
How does this adress what I posted? Do you think if you just throw a bunch of out-of-context second hand quotes at me that will some how refute what I quoted? Did you happen to notice that I properly cited each source I quoted? And OBTW I do my own research I read the writings for myself I don't copy/paste what someone else says. Which of any of Jerome's writing did he supposedly say this?
"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis[universalism], and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."
Another meaningless reference. Where did Augustine or Basil supposedly say this. And even if someone did say something like this that does not make it true. The rest of this copy/paste from tents-r-us ignored and deleted. . . .
 
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ClementofA

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How does this adress what I posted?

I thought it was clear:

""Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822)."

Do you see how that applies to what you quoted?

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 
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Another meaningless reference. Where did Augustine or Basil supposedly say this.

"Augustine, Enchiridion, sec. 112....

"When Augustine described the Universalists as “indeed very many” (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a “vast majority” (Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11)."


Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

It "has been handed down in Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47)" and "long afterwards by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552." (Ramelli)

And even if someone did say something like this that does not make it true.

Do you apply that same standard to your quotes?

And yet Augustine, Basil & Jerome all concur in the great number of those who rejected endless punishment.

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
 
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Where specifically did Philo speak of an unlimited aion?

Philo Plant. 51, as cited by Keizer on page 212:

Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

Philo, at the time of Christ, spoke of an unlimited aion. Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Or does it mean aion needed another word meaning eternal added to it to make it eternal because the word aion, in and of itself, does not mean eternal?

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
 
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Philo Plant. 51, as cited by Keizer on page 212:
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo
Philo, at the time of Christ, spoke of an unlimited aion. Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Or does it mean aion needed another word meaning eternal added to it to make it eternal because the word aion, in and of itself, does not mean eternal?
Philo (Prov. 1.7; Op. 7; Aet. 83-84).
But God is the creator of time also, for he is the father of his father, and the father of time is the world, which made its own mother the creation of time, so that time stands towards God in the relation of a grandson; for this world is a younger son of God, inasmuch as it is perceptible by the outward sense, for the only son he speaks of as older than the world, is Idea, and this is not perceptible by the intellect, but having thought the other worthy of the rights of primogeniture, he has decided that it should remain with him; therefore, this younger son, perceptible by the external senses being set in motion, has caused the nature of time to shine forth, and to become conspicuous, so that there is nothing future to God, who has the very boundaries of time subject to him; for their life is not time, but the beautiful model of eternity; and in eternity nothing is past and nothing is future, but everything is present only (Deus. 31-32).

http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/
At your link. p. 212 not available.
(vi) ln his extant writings, Philo never uses the word aion in plural. The meaning of aion as Philo uses it can be described as “all the whole time.” P. 208
The meaning of aionios in Philo can be described as time-enduring’ and/or lmmortal’ p. 209
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo
 
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Philo (Prov. 1.7; Op. 7; Aet. 83-84).
But God is the creator of time also, for he is the father of his father, and the father of time is the world, which made its own mother the creation of time, so that time stands towards God in the relation of a grandson; for this world is a younger son of God, inasmuch as it is perceptible by the outward sense, for the only son he speaks of as older than the world, is Idea, and this is not perceptible by the intellect, but having thought the other worthy of the rights of primogeniture, he has decided that it should remain with him; therefore, this younger son, perceptible by the external senses being set in motion, has caused the nature of time to shine forth, and to become conspicuous, so that there is nothing future to God, who has the very boundaries of time subject to him; for their life is not time, but the beautiful model of eternity; and in eternity nothing is past and nothing is future, but everything is present only (Deus. 31-32).

http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/
At your link. p. 212 not available.
(vi) ln his extant writings, Philo never uses the word aion in plural. The meaning of aion as Philo uses it can be described as “all the whole time.” P. 208
The meaning of aionios in Philo can be described as time-enduring’ and/or lmmortal’ p. 209
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo


I've never found p.212 unavailable in the many times i've seen it there, including a few minutes ago. AFAIK the entire book is always available.

I don't know what point you're trying to make, if any, with the above quotes.

In the next sentence after your quote from p.208 Keizer says Philo speaks in four passages of a "long aion". Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Obviously not.

Philo, at the time of Christ, also spoke of an unlimited aion. Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Or does it mean aion needed another word meaning eternal added to it to make it eternal because the word aion, in and of itself, does not mean eternal?
 
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I've never found p.212 unavailable in the many times i've seen it there, including a few minutes ago. AFAIK the entire book is always available.
The first 2 times I tried the link before p. 112 was blank this time I could see it. As I thought the Philo quote is out-of-context see below.
I don't know what point you're trying to make, if any, with the above quotes.
"
How does Philo specifically define "eternity" in Prov. 1.7; Op. 7; Aet. 83-84? "in eternity nothing is past and nothing is future, but everything is present only."

In the next sentence after your quote from p.208 Keizer says Philo speaks in four passages of a "long aion". Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Obviously not.
I would have to see those quotes in-context because the "unlimited aion" is out-of-context.

Philo, at the time of Christ, also spoke of an unlimited aion. Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Or does it mean aion needed another word meaning eternal added to it to make it eternal because the word aion, in and of itself, does not mean eternal?
Here is the unlimited aion quote in-context. Philo is paraphrasing Exod. 15:18 from the LXX.
(use) Ton apeiron aiôna, the unlimited aiön”, is Philo's paraphrase of the more-than-aion expression in Exod. 15:18 describing God's kingship. Before Philo. ton apeiron aiona is attested only once, in a fragment from Aristotle where it has the (non-philosophical) sense of “all. endless, time” (Chapter II text [33]). (meaning) The present passage appears to use the phrase in the same sense, while emphasizing the notion of continuity by the words “not for one moment ungoverned” and "uninterrupted”.
 
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