At least 26 people killed in shooting at Texas church

SteveCaruso · Nov 8, 2017

Archivist said:
No, the Second Amendment is about a well organized militia, and as near as I can tell most gun owners don’t participate in a well organized militia.

Indeed, but not "a": "The" Organized Militia (or "Well Regulated Militia" in late 1700s English) which by law is the National Guard and Navy Militia.

A number of court cases in the late 1700s and early 1800s expound upon this.

It's not until very recently in our Country's history that the 2nd Amendment was interpreted as a personal right to carry guns (rather than a right to bear arms in service of our country).

Aldebaran · Nov 9, 2017

Archivist said:
No, the Second Amendment is about a well organized militia, and as near as I can tell most gun owners don’t participate in a well organized militia.

If you want to know what it is about, why not read what the founding fathers had to say about it?

Gun Quotations of the Founding Fathers
Who knows better what the Second Amendment means than the Founding Fathers? Here are some powerful gun quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.

If you know of a gun quotation from a Founding Father not listed here, send it to us.(But make SURE it's not already listed. Okay?)

Back to the main Famous Gun Quotes page.

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

dentonz · Nov 10, 2017

seashale76 said:
Or a gun show. You can buy guns quite easily. Someone can even purchase a gun and give it to you as a gift. It happens all the time. To imply that one has to go to a drug lord to get a gun is silly. It's easy to get guns without having to go through background checks.

Have you ever bought a gun at a gun show? Every gun show I've ever been to is a series of dealer tables set up to sell guns. When you want to purchase them, you have to fill out a form 4400, the dealer then contacts the State Police and performs a background check, then the form is signed off with the State Police number and the weapon is transferred to the buyer. Which is the exact same process as going to a dealer to purchase firearms. If you purchase one online, it has to be shipped to a dealer, then you go through the same process.

seashale76 · Nov 10, 2017

dentonz said:
Have you ever bought a gun at a gun show? Every gun show I've ever been to is a series of dealer tables set up to sell guns. When you want to purchase them, you have to fill out a form 4400, the dealer then contacts the State Police and performs a background check, then the form is signed off with the State Police number and the weapon is transferred to the buyer. Which is the exact same process as going to a dealer to purchase firearms. If you purchase one online, it has to be shipped to a dealer, then you go through the same process.

See post 18#. Your mistake is assuming that all dealers at gun shows are federally licensed instead of private. Most are, sure. However, you can always buy from someone- even at a gun show or on-line- privately. I'm not a federally licensed dealer, but if I want to sell my guns, I can do so, and I don't legally have to make the buyer go through a background check.

Aldebaran · Nov 10, 2017

dentonz said:
Have you ever bought a gun at a gun show? Every gun show I've ever been to is a series of dealer tables set up to sell guns. When you want to purchase them, you have to fill out a form 4400, the dealer then contacts the State Police and performs a background check, then the form is signed off with the State Police number and the weapon is transferred to the buyer. Which is the exact same process as going to a dealer to purchase firearms. If you purchase one online, it has to be shipped to a dealer, then you go through the same process.

Most gun shows are only for the 2 days of the weekend. More problems come up if the state you're in has a waiting period. You go to the gun show on Sunday, buy a firearm, and then have to wait until Tuesday or Wednesday to actually take possession. This means the firearm will have to be transferred from the dealer, which might be based out of town, to a local dealer for an additional fee.

Aldebaran · Nov 10, 2017

seashale76 said:
See post 18#. Your mistake is assuming that all dealers at gun shows are federally licensed instead of private. Most are, sure. However, you can always buy from someone- even at a gun show or on-line- privately. I'm not a federally licensed dealer, but if I want to sell my guns, I can do so, and I don't legally have to make the buyer go through a background check.

If you buy privately online, the firearm still has to go through a dealer. I may be wrong about that, but I think guns can't be shipped through the mail unless it's to a dealer. As for gun shows, it's true that the vast majority are dealers, and sales through them are the same as if at their place of business. Private sales don't usually have much of a selection. It's usually someone who set up a table to get rid of some extra guns.

Waterwerx · Nov 10, 2017

Smidlee said:
Or what about the media giving so much attention to the shooter and the number of people they kill?

I'm guessing they're all scrambling to receive a Pulitzer prize in journalism or somehow profit from the misery of others. Robin Meade's career was propelled in part by her reporting on the Centennial Olympic Park bombing back in 96.
In the news industry, sensationalism makes money, even if it means repeatedly broadcasting about murder and mayhem and giving the sick perpetrators exactly what they wanted: a stage upon which to go out with a bang for the cameras and make a name for themselves.

Nothing is localized anymore, but is instead broadcasted beyond and allowed to spread like the cancer it is. Its like they don't have anything else more important to cover instead of giving these fools an outlet for transmitting their murderous acts.

Marvin Knox · Nov 10, 2017

Aldebaran said:
So far, the Las Vegas shooting is the only one done with a bump fire stock

I don't know any of my NRA gun nut friends who are against any kind of gun regulation and or bans.

Most of us say something like, "Quick - strike while the iron is hot - give the liberals the bump stock ban gladly and shut-em up for a while. It won't effect any educated gun guy at all - whether he carries for self protection or owns an AR15 for recreational shooting, coyote hunting, and the occasional attempted government takeover."

Any experienced or even inexperience AR shooter can do more effective damage with a semi-auto then with a full auto any day.

Archivist said:
..........the Second Amendment is about a well organized militia..........

I remember when the NRA stood firmly against any kind of gun registration. Those hard line days have passed now - probably because of the outcry against mass shootings and the like. Almost none of us would want to do away with registration laws which did background checks and such. Times have changed for NRA types with the softening of their hard line stance and I think it's good thing.

We still stand firmly in our protection of the 2nd amendment right to own firearms in general and own fighting firearms to protect against government takeovers etc. and not be limited to ineffective firearms for that purpose.

But, I at least, look at the "well regulated" clause actually being fulfilled through thorough background checks of individual purchasers and also well screened licensing of concealed weapons permits.

I live in a very liberal state and they have not thus far gone beyond those particular regulatory positions.

If they do try to go too far - I'll be protesting right along with the hard line red necks.

I believe we can still honor the 2nd amendment and also do a lot of screening of potential purchasers of firearms.

How you're going to run background checks and register guns for the members of the Bloods, the Crips, the Hell's Angels and MS13 is another matter now isn't it?

Maybe the libs need to concentrate on the thugs for a while and let the NRA members alone.

Archivist · Nov 13, 2017

Aldebaran said:
But it is what the signers of the constitution intended. Here are some quotations of what they themselves said:

Gun Quotations of the Founding Fathers
Who knows better what the Second Amendment means than the Founding Fathers? Here are some powerful gun quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.

If you know of a gun quotation from a Founding Father not listed here, send it to us.(But make SURE it's not already listed. Okay?)

Back to the main Famous Gun Quotes page.

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

None of those quotes say that anyone should have the right to an automatic or semiautomatic weapon.

Archivist · Nov 13, 2017

redleghunter said:
The second amendment says both an organized militia and by extension individuals having the right to bear arms.

I notice how when it applies to the 2nd Amendment it is just the 'opinion' of the court, yet when the same SCOTUS decides to make law like same sex marriage everyone must obey. Just saying...

But when you say "by extension" you are adding language that isn't in the Bill of Rights.

A court issues an "opinion". That is what we call decisions by a court. At no point have I said that we don't need to obey Heller. It is, for now, the law. However, the Supreme Court had issued bad decisions before like Plessy v. Ferguson. It was later overruled. I expect that the Supreme Court decision regarding the 2nd Amendment will also be overruled.

98cwitr · Nov 13, 2017

SteveCaruso said:
Indeed, but not "a": "The" Organized Militia (or "Well Regulated Militia" in late 1700s English) which by law is the National Guard and Navy Militia.

A number of court cases in the late 1700s and early 1800s expound upon this.

It's not until very recently in our Country's history that the 2nd Amendment was interpreted as a personal right to carry guns (rather than a right to bear arms in service of our country).

May I direct your attention to District of Columbia v. Heller: District of Columbia v. Heller - Wikipedia

The Supreme Court ruled that the 2nd amendment applies directly to the individual.

Archivist · Nov 13, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
I don't know any of my NRA gun nut friends who are against any kind of gun regulation and or bans.

Most of us say something like, "Quick - strike while the iron is hot - give the liberals the bump stock ban gladly and shut-em up for a while. It won't effect any educated gun guy at all - whether he carries for self protection or owns an AR15 for recreational shooting, coyote hunting, and the occasional attempted government takeover."

Any experienced or even inexperience AR shooter can do more effective damage with a semi-auto then with a full auto any day.

I remember when the NRA stood firmly against any kind of gun registration. Those hard line days have passed now - probably because of the outcry against mass shootings and the like. Almost none of us would want to do away with registration laws which did background checks and such. Times have changed for NRA types with the softening of their hard line stance and I think it's good thing.

We still stand firmly in our protection of the 2nd amendment right to own firearms in general and own fighting firearms to protect against government takeovers etc. and not be limited to ineffective firearms for that purpose.

But, I at least, look at the "well regulated" clause actually being fulfilled through thorough background checks of individual purchasers and also well screened licensing of concealed weapons permits.

I live in a very liberal state and they have not thus far gone beyond those particular regulatory positions.

If they do try to go too far - I'll be protesting right along with the hard line red necks.

I believe we can still honor the 2nd amendment and also do a lot of screening of potential purchasers of firearms.

How you're going to run background checks and register guns for the members of the Bloods, the Crips, the Hell's Angels and MS13 is another matter now isn't it?

Maybe the libs need to concentrate on the thugs for a while and let the NRA members alone.

I never said that anyone should be going after the NRA. I simply said that the second amendment deals with a well-organized militia.

Aldebaran · Nov 13, 2017

Archivist said:
None of those quotes say that anyone should have the right to an automatic or semiautomatic weapon.

Which has nothing to do with why I posted it. Go back to post #79 (which I was responding to) and you'll see what statement I was responding to.

Archivist · Nov 13, 2017

Aldebaran said:
Which has nothing to do with why I posted it. Go back to post #79 (which I was responding to) and you'll see what statement I was responding to.

No, you were not responding to post 79. Post 79 was in fact your post.

Aldebaran · Nov 13, 2017

Archivist said:
No, you were not responding to post 79. Post 79 was in fact your post.

What I meant to say was to go back to post #79 and look at the post (in the quote there) that I was responding to. Here's what I was responding to:

Archivist said:
And the Court is entitled to its opinion, however that wasn't the accepted view for over 200 years and it isn't what the Constitution says.

I was trying to show what the accepted view was from the very people who actually wrote and signed the constitution. Not all that different from what the court's view was.

Followers4christ · Nov 13, 2017

Archivist said:
None of those quotes say that anyone should have the right to an automatic or semiautomatic weapon.

Sure let me provide you with some quotes. The 2nd Amendment says " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." When you restrict access to guns cause they are to "dangerous" you are infringing on Americans right to bear arms. The right to bear arms is not about hunting or self defense of an intruder but to protect ourselves from a government. If the government takes the automatic guns for the purpose of keeping us safe then we fall in a trap that many founding fathers warned us about like Benjamin Franklin "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." The American right to bear arms extends to automatic guns as well and it is un-American to infringe on our rights to bear arms.

What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason,

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
– Thomas Jefferson,

Followers4christ · Nov 13, 2017

Archivist said:
I never said that anyone should be going after the NRA. I simply said that the second amendment deals with a well-organized militia.

But the 2nd Amendment does not just deal with the militia. The 2nd Amendment says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." As it says "the people" to keep and bear arms not just a militia. Not to mention George Mason claimed that the militia consisted of the "whole people" meaning we the people.

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." - George Mason

Archivist · Nov 13, 2017

Followers4christ said:
Sure let me provide you with some quotes. The 2nd Amendment says " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." When you restrict access to guns cause they are to "dangerous" you are infringing on Americans right to bear arms. The right to bear arms is not about hunting or self defense of an intruder but to protect ourselves from a government. If the government takes the automatic guns for the purpose of keeping us safe then we fall in a trap that many founding fathers warned us about like Benjamin Franklin "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." The American right to bear arms extends to automatic guns as well and it is un-American to infringe on our rights to bear arms.

What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason,

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
– Thomas Jefferson,

Except I am not talking about disarming anyone.

Archivist · Nov 13, 2017

Followers4christ said:
But the 2nd Amendment does not just deal with the militia. The 2nd Amendment says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." As it says "the people" to keep and bear arms not just a militia. Not to mention George Mason claimed that the militia consisted of the "whole people" meaning we the people.

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." - George Mason

I'm not sure that Mason is the best person to quote on Constitutional rights given that he refused to sign the document.

Followers4christ · Nov 13, 2017

Archivist said:
I'm not sure that Mason is the best person to quote on Constitutional rights given that he refused to sign the document.

Well I could even use James Madison if that is better for you. James Madison goes along with what Mason said in the previous post.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country." - James Madison

At least 26 people killed in shooting at Texas church

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