God is not the author of confusion..........................

Imagican · Nov 9, 2017

I'm talking to a person the other day. At one point in the conversation I state: "You know, my biggest struggle is learning to love others AS myself". This person says to me, "Mike, that SO SAD".

I think back upon the conversation and kind of laugh. Not because it's 'ha ha funny', but it's SO SAD that if I didn't laugh I'd have to CRY.

For this 'person' has obviously deluded themselves to the extent that they have convinced themselves that they DO 'love other as themselves'. Truthfully? I have NEVER met such a person.

Yeah, some people 'pretend' better than others, but the TRUTH is: I have NEVER MET an individual that loves others as themselves.

I have met people that HATE others as they HATE themselves.

But my point is the 'confusion'. People confusing themselves by creating 'false beliefs'. If there were men capable of loving others as themselves, Christ wouldn't have needed to DIE for the sins of ALL MEN.

Yet how many of us pretend or falsely convince ourselves that we DO love others as we love ourselves.

Question: How many people on this planet don't even TRULY love themselves? So how could they share something that they don't even possess? How could they love others AS themselves if they don't even TRULY 'love themselves'? And how many of those are 'self deluded' to the extent that they BELIEVE they are sharing their love with each other?

Now, the important issue. The issue that matters MOST: How much 'self delusion' can each of us create before there is really NO TRUTH in us? And if there is no 'truth in us', who do we REALLY worship? Who is our TRUE 'father'.

Blessings,

MEC

Albion · Nov 9, 2017

Maybe he thought it was sad simply because you said you were struggling.

brinny · Nov 9, 2017

Imagican said:
I'm talking to a person the other day. At one point in the conversation I state: "You know, my biggest struggle is learning to love others AS myself". This person says to me, "Mike, that SO SAD".

I think back upon the conversation and kind of laugh. Not because it's 'ha ha funny', but it's SO SAD that if I didn't laugh I'd have to CRY.

For this 'person' has obviously deluded themselves to the extent that they have convinced themselves that they DO 'love other as themselves'. Truthfully? I have NEVER met such a person.

Yeah, some people 'pretend' better than others, but the TRUTH is: I have NEVER MET an individual that loves others as themselves.

I have met people that HATE others as they HATE themselves.

But my point is the 'confusion'. People confusing themselves by creating 'false beliefs'. If there were men capable of loving others as themselves, Christ wouldn't have needed to DIE for the sins of ALL MEN.

Yet how many of us pretend or falsely convince ourselves that we DO love others as we love ourselves.

Question: How many people on this planet don't even TRULY love themselves? So how could they share something that they don't even possess? How could they love others AS themselves if they don't even TRULY 'love themselves'? And how many of those are 'self deluded' to the extent that they BELIEVE they are sharing their love with each other?

Now, the important issue. The issue that matters MOST: How much 'self delusion' can each of us create before there is really NO TRUTH in us? And if there is no 'truth in us', who do we REALLY worship? Who is our TRUE 'father'.

Blessings,

MEC

Excellent point.

Amen.

Hieronymus · Nov 9, 2017

Imagican said:
I have met people that HATE others as they HATE themselves.

Hey, that's me ! :sorry:

Or maybe i hate myself even more than i hate others...
It varies...
My Faith has surely helped to love others more than before, and love myself less.

Question: How many people on this planet don't even TRULY love themselves? So how could they share something that they don't even possess?

Self love by definition can not be given to others.

How could they love others AS themselves if they don't even TRULY 'love themselves'?

I think that's a non sequitur actually.
Why couldn't someone that hates himself love others?

Now, the important issue. The issue that matters MOST: How much 'self delusion' can each of us create before there is really NO TRUTH in us? And if there is no 'truth in us', who do we REALLY worship? Who is our TRUE 'father'.

This is about loving God i.m.o.
Do we always love God, really?
Or do we hope / have faith He is / will be ( when this state of separation is over) worth loving?
Don't we sometimes hate God when life throws another piece of misery at us?
These are emotional things brought forth by our wicked hearts i.m.o., but as long as we're stuck in this carnal vessel, this will be a reoccurring problem.

brinny · Nov 9, 2017

Hieronymus said:
Hey, that's me !
Or maybe i hate myself even more than i hate others...
It varies...
My Faith has surely helped to love others more than before, and love myself less.Self love by definition can not be given to others.I think that's a non sequitur actually.
Why couldn't someone that hates himself love others?This is about loving God i.m.o.
Do we always love God, really?
Or do we hope / have faith He is / will be ( when this state of separation is over) worth loving?
Don't we sometimes hate God when life throws another piece of misery at us?
These are emotional things brought forth by our wicked hearts i.m.o., but as long as we're stuck in this carnal vessel, this will be a reoccurring problem.

i can relate to the self-hatred, loathing, as a matter of fact. i found that it is IMPOSSIBLE to love others or let alone think "well" of them in my own strength...well the really abominable thing is that one might not care that they do not think "well" of others at all.

It is only through God's grace that a heart of stone like mine was, can be transformed into a heart of flesh, reflecting what God Himself puts in there, and that is a love for Him, and consequently others, as He simultaneously heals our bedraggled soul and wounded heart as healing commences for us, and we begin to love ourselves in a healthy way.

The point being that we cannot love others in our own strength.

(This also is in sync with "forgiveness", but that's another thread.)

Hieronymus · Nov 9, 2017

Let me try this again, i think i missed the point..

Imagican said:
How could they love others AS themselves if they don't even TRULY 'love themselves'?

You capitalised AS there, which i didn't address.
I think i should look at it like this:
When in need we primarily look out for 'number one', which is ourselves.
That would be love for the self, which is bigger than love for the other.
And even if you hate yourself more than you hate others, you will probably primarily look out for 'number one' when in need.
So we can make this discussion very complicated.
But we don't have to.
What the Samaritan did, was CARE for the assaulted Jew out of Love (agape).
Not to feel good about himself, but to save a life.
Altruism, Agape.
This is the Law of Christ.
And it's true, we fall short on that Law too.

Lightsway · Nov 9, 2017

Try this , do not create a judgement by your witness ,
As you observe creating no separation from your honesty .
Now let the truth guide you

A_Thinker · Nov 9, 2017

Imagican said:
I'm talking to a person the other day. At one point in the conversation I state: "You know, my biggest struggle is learning to love others AS myself". This person says to me, "Mike, that SO SAD".

I think back upon the conversation and kind of laugh. Not because it's 'ha ha funny', but it's SO SAD that if I didn't laugh I'd have to CRY.

For this 'person' has obviously deluded themselves to the extent that they have convinced themselves that they DO 'love other as themselves'. Truthfully? I have NEVER met such a person.

Yeah, some people 'pretend' better than others, but the TRUTH is: I have NEVER MET an individual that loves others as themselves.

I have met people that HATE others as they HATE themselves.

But my point is the 'confusion'. People confusing themselves by creating 'false beliefs'. If there were men capable of loving others as themselves, Christ wouldn't have needed to DIE for the sins of ALL MEN.

Yet how many of us pretend or falsely convince ourselves that we DO love others as we love ourselves.

Question: How many people on this planet don't even TRULY love themselves? So how could they share something that they don't even possess? How could they love others AS themselves if they don't even TRULY 'love themselves'? And how many of those are 'self deluded' to the extent that they BELIEVE they are sharing their love with each other?

Now, the important issue. The issue that matters MOST: How much 'self delusion' can each of us create before there is really NO TRUTH in us? And if there is no 'truth in us', who do we REALLY worship? Who is our TRUE 'father'.

Blessings,

MEC

It may somewhat depend upon the interpretation of the command ... "Love your neighbor as you love yourself ... "

One could interpret this to mean that one is willing to give sacrificially for the well-being of others.

IOW, what I would have utilized to love MYSELF, ... I am willing to GIVE/SACRIFICE ... to love others.

Now, obviously, this is a command that we all, at points, fall short of, ... but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to make it a reality in our lives, to the, hopefully increasing, degree that we can.

And there are examples of people who are very high on the scale. For instance, every time a person risks their own life to save another's life, ... we see this command being fulfilled. Also, people who commit their lives .... to benefit others' lives, as examples of this virtue. For most of us, it comes down to, ... are we willing to help another in need who comes to us, ... or whom we happen upon. This was the example of the Good Samaritan, who Jesus lauded as an example to follow.

For most of us, also, ... there is the fact that we commit much of our life's efforts and resources ... to others, namely spouses and children.

I think that, ultimately, where God is trying to lead us with this command, ... is to understand that God has placed us within the family of humanity, ... and that God expects family ... to help out family when needed. We must be wary of attitudes that lead to us not being willing to extend ourselves ... to help a brother/sister out.

A_Thinker · Nov 9, 2017

Imagican said:
I'm talking to a person the other day. At one point in the conversation I state: "You know, my biggest struggle is learning to love others AS myself". This person says to me, "Mike, that SO SAD".

Perhaps your friend is Mother Teresa in disguise ...

Halbhh · Nov 9, 2017

Imagican said:
I'm talking to a person the other day. At one point in the conversation I state: "You know, my biggest struggle is learning to love others AS myself". This person says to me, "Mike, that SO SAD".

I think back upon the conversation and kind of laugh. Not because it's 'ha ha funny', but it's SO SAD that if I didn't laugh I'd have to CRY.

For this 'person' has obviously deluded themselves to the extent that they have convinced themselves that they DO 'love other as themselves'. Truthfully? I have NEVER met such a person.

Yeah, some people 'pretend' better than others, but the TRUTH is: I have NEVER MET an individual that loves others as themselves.

I have met people that HATE others as they HATE themselves.

But my point is the 'confusion'. People confusing themselves by creating 'false beliefs'. If there were men capable of loving others as themselves, Christ wouldn't have needed to DIE for the sins of ALL MEN.

Yet how many of us pretend or falsely convince ourselves that we DO love others as we love ourselves.

Question: How many people on this planet don't even TRULY love themselves? So how could they share something that they don't even possess? How could they love others AS themselves if they don't even TRULY 'love themselves'? And how many of those are 'self deluded' to the extent that they BELIEVE they are sharing their love with each other?

Now, the important issue. The issue that matters MOST: How much 'self delusion' can each of us create before there is really NO TRUTH in us? And if there is no 'truth in us', who do we REALLY worship? Who is our TRUE 'father'.

Blessings,

MEC

True in many ways, yet....self sacrificing acts of love happen a lot on Earth, not just once in a year.

So, the picture is that at least some people are loving some other people as themselves, at times, minimum.

Even strangers. At times even strangers outright risk death to save someone.

So....it's a deep topic, and I don't think I know all of it yet, but what I think of usually for the "as yourself" part in "Love your neighbor as yourself" is it's just like the "as yourself" in the rule Christ gave us for how to love (!) --

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you"

We are to do to them as we would have others to do us.

So, that's not impossible. In fact, most people can even do it much of the time, already!

It's when it's harder to do though that the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

He said it this way --

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

How could we do that -- love even an enemy?

Only with His help, if we would do it more than a few seconds.

Wonderfully, He gives us aid liberally! He said to you a prayer to pray every day for aid, and you can pray it believing it will be given, and then it will --

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 6:5-15 - New International Version

Imagican · Nov 10, 2017

Albion said:
Maybe he thought it was sad simply because you said you were struggling.

Actually it was a 'her'. And in 'her' mind, I'm quite sure what you have offered is 'true'. And isn't that the problem? That each of us is capable of deluding ourselves into believing: "Not me".

The Bible itself tells us that there is NOT ONE that is righteous, not ONE.

And what is 'righteousness'?

I would condense it down exactly as offered by Christ: "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and prophets hang on 'these TWO'.

And it's not what we 'say' that is evidence of our faith, but what we DO. What we say to ourselves or to each other.

Once again, I have yet to meet the individual capable of loving others AS themselves. If you have found these people, you have certainly been more fortunate than myself.

Case in point: Even Peter, upon who 'the church' was established, denied Christ Himself THREE times when the heat was on. He couldn't even love Christ as himself.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Nov 10, 2017

Hieronymus said:
Hey, that's me !
Or maybe i hate myself even more than i hate others...
It varies...
My Faith has surely helped to love others more than before, and love myself less.Self love by definition can not be given to others.I think that's a non sequitur actually.
Why couldn't someone that hates himself love others?This is about loving God i.m.o.
Do we always love God, really?
Or do we hope / have faith He is / will be ( when this state of separation is over) worth loving?
Don't we sometimes hate God when life throws another piece of misery at us?
These are emotional things brought forth by our wicked hearts i.m.o., but as long as we're stuck in this carnal vessel, this will be a reoccurring problem.

If you are incapable of learning to love yourself, (no, not self SERVING love), how could you share something with others that you don't even possess to begin with?

I don't know that I've personally ever actually 'hated' God. I have certainly questioned Him. But hate? Can't say that I EVER hate Him.

But I will openly admit without hesitation that I do NOT always LOVE Him with 'all my heart, mind and soul.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Nov 10, 2017

Halbhh said:
True in many ways, yet....self sacrificing acts of love happen a lot on Earth, not just once in a year.

So, the picture is that at least some people are loving some other people as themselves, at times, minimum.

Even strangers. At times even strangers outright risk death to save someone.

So....it's a deep topic, and I don't think I know all of it yet, but what I think of usually for the "as yourself" part in "Love your neighbor as yourself" is it's just like the "as yourself" in the rule Christ gave us for how to love (!) --

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you"

We are to do to them as we would have others to do us.

So, that's not impossible. In fact, most people can even do it much of the time, already!

It's when it's harder to do though that the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

He said it this way --

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

How could we do that -- love even an enemy?

Only with His help, if we would do it more than a few seconds.

Wonderfully, He gives us aid liberally! He said to you a prayer to pray every day for aid, and you can pray it believing it will be given, and then it will --

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 6:5-15 - New International Version

Think about this: Satan is the 'father of lies'.

The 'church' has painted him as an ugly, utterly evil, baby sacrificing entity.

Now WHO would follow such an entity in 'truth'? Very few.

But it is MY opinion that Satan is probably one of the most beautiful of God's creations.

With this in mind, could Satan USE pretense in order to APPEAR to be 'self sacrificing'? In other words, could Satan influence people to APPEAR to be 'righteous' when in fact their righteousness is 'self righteousness'?

When Jesus speaks of the woman giving her last penny, He states that her PENNY meant more than all the rest of the money others were donating. Not because of it's VALUE, but because of the REASON that she was willing to give it.

Now, couldn't Satan encourage people to DO things that appear to be 'righteous' but are in fact, 'self righteous'. Couldn't the very person Christ was explaining this example to, mimic the woman's act to APPEAR to be 'like the woman'. But in their heart, they were only doing it to APPEAR righteous?

Let me put it another way: Could Satan influence people to 'appear' to be righteous to influence others to follow in their footsteps? Do things that LOOK like they are righteous. But the only way this could be determined would be by SEEING into their heart. And couldn't their intention be deceptive while appearing to be 'righteous'?

How about this: Could someone start a 'church' designed to worship Satan, but call him God? Use the Bible, (bits and pieces), to support itself. Yet in all of that which APPEARS to be 'righteous', all was actually being influenced by and directed by Satan?

Once again, I direct you to Matthew 7 where 'many' are bragging to Christ about ALL the wonderful things that they had 'done in His NAME'. And His response, "Go away from me, I never knew you...........".

Who were they TRULY serving?

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Nov 10, 2017

A_Thinker said:
Perhaps your friend is Mother Teresa in disguise ...

Or Mother Mary???? LOL. that's her name. Mary.

Blessings,

MEC

A_Thinker · Nov 10, 2017

Imagican said:
Actually it was a 'her'. And in 'her' mind, I'm quite sure what you have offered is 'true'. And isn't that the problem? That each of us is capable of deluding ourselves into believing: "Not me".

I think that the difference is between believing that "we have already achieved" such a goal ... or understanding that we need to be in constant pursuit of such a goal, so that, with Paul, we can say ...

"I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me." Philippians 3:12

A_Thinker · Nov 10, 2017

Imagican said:
Case in point: Even Peter, upon who 'the church' was established, denied Christ Himself THREE times when the heat was on. He couldn't even love Christ as himself.

Yet ... by the end of his life, Peter had sacrificed himself (and blessed innumerable people) by his refusal to stop spreading the gospel.

A_Thinker · Nov 10, 2017

Imagican said:
How about this: Could someone start a 'church' designed to worship Satan, but call him God? Use the Bible, (bits and pieces), to support itself. Yet in all of that which APPEARS to be 'righteous', all was actually being influenced by and directed by Satan?

Jesus said that "A house divided against itself shall not stand." A "church" secretly devoted to Satan, ... would be very difficult to present as christian.

True christians (i.e. those adopted into God's family) ... would be able to discern the difference at some point. An example of such would be when Satan was attempting to tempt Jesus.

This is not to say that Satan does not have his minions in churches, however. It is the responsibility of christians to discern such, ... and to not allow Satan to have sway in God's house.

Imagican · Nov 10, 2017

Halbhh said:
True in many ways, yet....self sacrificing acts of love happen a lot on Earth, not just once in a year.

But couldn't a 'self sacrificing act' be influenced by Satan in order to TRICK others into believing in a lie?

So, the picture is that at least some people are loving some other people as themselves, at times, minimum.

Just because someone does something that APPEARS to be 'out of love' doesn't mean that it's NOT 'self serving'. There have people that have gone to their deaths unwilling to denounce the Devil.

How about this: Do you suppose that offering oneself for another may be a form of suicide? That the person making the offer isn't doing it out LOVE, they are doing it because they don't have the guts to kill themselves. So they sacrifice themselves in the PLACE of another. Not because of love, but because they no longer want to live.

Or how about this: Do you suppose someone could perform an act out of GUILT rather than LOVE?

Even strangers. At times even strangers outright risk death to save someone.

But who can determine the REASON: what is in their hearts? Some people are constantly seeking their OWN glory. How can any of us determine that their 'acts' are not SELF serving while APPEARING to be 'out of love for another'?

Each of us risks our lives every day. We just don't realize it. We are not aware of the danger until we get 'caught up in it'.

The guy that runs into the burning building isn't thinking, "If I do this, I'm going to DIE". What he's really thinking is, "I can do this.................", right before he sucks in that first breath and passes out from inhaling toxic fumes.

So....it's a deep topic, and I don't think I know all of it yet, but what I think of usually for the "as yourself" part in "Love your neighbor as yourself" is it's just like the "as yourself" in the rule Christ gave us for how to love (!) --

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you"

We are to do to them as we would have others to do us.

So, that's not impossible. In fact, most people can even do it much of the time, already!

Do your truly believe this? For is what you offer is true, then Christ died in vain.

It's when it's harder to do though that the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

He said it this way --

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

How could we do that -- love even an enemy?

By first learning what love truly IS. The love spoken of here.

Only with His help, if we would do it more than a few seconds.

Wonderfully, He gives us aid liberally! He said to you a prayer to pray every day for aid, and you can pray it believing it will be given, and then it will --

My intention is NOT Devil's Advocate I assure you. My intention is a "deeper understanding". The topic wasn't offered lightly. I didn't just have an 'idea pop into my head' without any understanding. This is something I've been contemplating for many many years. As I have come to understand what we are offered in the Bible, I have used that information to 'look around' me at everyday situations and do my best to evaluate what I witness.

In closing, I have seen some of the most 'evil' people I've ever encountered DO THINGS that appear to be compassionate, caring, loving, self sacrificing. People that denounce God, His Son and everyone that they come in contact with. Murder and rape ONE person and then help another.

You cannot serve TWO masters. So the obviousness is that even the 'bad master' can inspire his servants to 'do what appears to be GOOD'.

Blessings,

MEC

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 6:5-15 - New International Version

Albion · Nov 10, 2017

Imagican said:
Actually it was a 'her'. And in 'her' mind, I'm quite sure what you have offered is 'true'. And isn't that the problem? That each of us is capable of deluding ourselves into believing: "Not me".

Yes, that could explain it, but I don't believe that everyone who feels sorry for another who is going through a tough time is secretly thinking "thank goodness it was you and not me."

Imagican · Nov 10, 2017

A_Thinker said:
Jesus said that "A house divided against itself shall not stand." A "church" secretly devoted to Satan, ... would be very difficult to present as christian.

Really? We see examples all the time. Do you honestly believe that a pastor who is a murder, adulterer, thief and liar can lead a congregation in TRUTH?

The Bible says that a Bishop MUST BE: a married man with children. Let us just use this ONE attribute, (there are others as well but we don't even need to take the second step here). How many 'churches' claiming to be 'churches of Christ' have Bishops that are NOT married with children?

Then let us move on the extreme. Do you believe that those members of Jim Jones' church were follower of Christ in TRUTH? Or David Koresh? These are only two examples that ended up IN THE NEWS. How many others are out there right now?

True christians (i.e. those adopted into God's family) ... would be able to discern the difference at some point. An example of such would be when Satan was attempting to tempt Jesus.

If you didn't KNOW any better, and joined a 'church' simply because of the way it made you FEEL. But you didn't KNOW Satan nor did you KNOW God. How would you KNOW the difference? Satan can disguise himself as 'an angel of LIGHT'.

And even when the evidence presents itself, people have the means of deluding themselves. Ask any member of any cult that has left the cult. They will ALL tell you the same story. That they were aware of many things that their leader was teaching or doing that were contrary to the 'truth' but they FELT good there and chose to stay regardless.

This is not to say that Satan does not have his minions in churches, however. It is the responsibility of christians to discern such, ... and to not allow Satan to have sway in God's house.

I've already given you examples of 'churches' that are NOT true 'churches of Christ'.

God's house? See, you have already been fooled into a 'false concept'. There is no such thing as God's HOUSE. God no longer dwells within temples made by the hands of men. Nor will He ever again.

I take it that you haven't really ever thought about the things that I've offered here. These 'ideas' are not NEW to me. I have been studying them for years.

Question: Do you believe that the Catholic Church, when it was torturing and murdering those that opposed it, were TRUE 'churches of Christ'? That they were doing GOD'S will by torturing and murdering people? That they were practicing the message of Christ? Not a trick question. Just an honest one.

Blessings,

MEC

God is not the author of confusion..........................

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