Why Believers are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses

ToBeLoved said:

I wish I had the time to bring you up to date on basic Bible theology, but I do not.

This website and the verses included will show you much of the way, if you seek to know

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I asked what your thoughts are not mine as I know my own understanding of God's Word in relation to the Old and New Covenants. Your website does not answer the question I asked of you which was what is the difference between the Old and New Covenants and what was done away with?

FREEATLAST: The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

FL: The legalistic keeping of the Torah, in order to deserve salvation, to accumulate merits is a yoke, because nobody can fulfill the Torah this way. However, the believer who loves God and his neighbour, because he has received the Holy Spirit, after he was saved by grace, no matter wether he was in the Christian or pre-Christian era, he DOES keep the Torah in a way accepted by God. The same Luke says: ”Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly. (Lk. 1:6 NIV). ”Then they (the Christian women) went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment. (Lk. 23:56 NIV). ”On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. (Acts 16:13 NIV) And why should be the Sabbath „an unbearable yoke”? Did God created human beings to give them a wrong example and a hateful yoke? (see Genesis 2:1-3). Is it so difficult to rest in God/Jesus one day WITHOUT WORKS, while it is good news to rest in Him EVERY WORKING DAY?


FREEATLAST: The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)
FL: Very well. We need it just for this reason: to reveal our sin. If you are not guilty, you will not need Christ.


FREEATLAST: The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)
FL: Because they follow it not by faith, but by meritory works (Rom 9:32-22).


FREEATLAST: The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)
FL: TO INCREASE sin means TO MAKE SIN MORE VISIBLE, OR MAKE ME MORE AWARE OF SIN. But the grace is multiplied only for those to whom the Law increased the sin: ”The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,...”(Rom. 5:20 NIV).


FREEATLAST: Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)
FL. They are not UNDER the Torah, but they live according to the Torah, in harmony with it. If I am still a sinner (living in sin), then I am still UNDER the Law: ”For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but UNDER grace.” (Rom. 6:14 NIV). Thus only the believer who is under grace, and lead by the Spirit (Galatians 5:18) is in harmony with the Torah.


FREEATLAST: Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)
FL. Yes, delivered from the Law, as the Torah was understood as our rightful Master, and thus we were UNDER the Torah, slaves of the letter, not slaves of God (UNDER grace). This was not because of the Torah, but because we ”were living according to the flesh”, not lead by the Spirit (Romans 7:5).


FREEATLAST: The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)
FL. The Law was not made to save us, but to show us the need of Saviour, and to show the principles of a godly Christian life. If I reject the authority of the Law to show my duty, then who will show it to me? Christ pointed to the Law, when He said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 5:17-20 NIV)


FREEATLAST: The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)
FL: It promises life only to those who observe it properly, and it can be observed properly by faith alone, thorugh grace. The grace is multiplied, it is not just a forgiving grace, but also a teaching grace (Tit 2:11-12).


FREEATLAST: The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)
FL: Your scriptures really says ”that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.” (Rom. 7:13 NIV). It is necessary to be aware of our great sinfulness. The Law is a good tool for this job. The only mistake is to use it as a saving means.


FREEATLAST: The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)
FL. It is weak because of sin. It cannot fight alone against the law of sin and death, that works within us. But when we seek the Spirit and His Law of Life, we have the ability to fulfill God’s will. Only in Christ has the Law its true fulfillment.


FREEATLAST: The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)
FL: True. Without Law, there were no sin. If God had our mind, then He would have rather abolished the Law. But He sent His Son to bear the curse of the Law, in order to save us not only form the guilt of sin, but also form the power of sin, that ist o put us in harmony with His law, not just by forgiveness, but also by His empowering grace.


FREEATLAST: The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)
FL: The author deals with the legalistic approach to the Law. He speaks of the LETTER versus SPIRIT. Read the whole passage.


FREEATLAST: The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)
FL: Yes, our condemnation is necessary, if we transgress or neglect the Law. If God revealed it to people , to show their sin, it means it is necessary. And it is necessary that people who live in disobedience, rejecting God ’s reconciliation, to be CONDEMNED.


FREEATLAST: The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)
FL: True, Christ is the glory of the Law. He is the finality of the Law (Rom 10:4).


FREEATLAST: The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)
FL: It is not the Law that is fading away, but the glory of the Law (the letter) is fading away, in contrast with the increasing glory of Christ (the Spirit). Read carefully the whole passage, please.


FREEATLAST: Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)
FL: If this is true, then God was wrong or unjust by giving the Torah. Why give the Torah only to harden the mind of people? You should fiind a better explanation. For example, the scripture says that to escape this hardening there is one solution: turn back to the LORD, not give away His Law.



FREEATLAST: The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)
FL: The law cannot justify sinners, since it was given to reveal sin and prove people as sinners. However, it justifies those who fulfill it by faith, by grace: “for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” (Rom. 2:13) ” Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected” (James 2:21-22).


FREEATLAST: Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)
FL: Christians are dead to the legalistic system of salvation, that is dead to the spiritless (letter) approach to the Torah (Rom 7:6).


FREEATLAST: The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)
FL. In that verse, Paul does not speak of the Law itself, but of the religion that seeks justfication by the meritorious works of the Law. Just read the text.


FREEATLAST: To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)
FL. It is stupid to replace Christ by the Law, since the Law is only an instrument of God’s plan, not a savior.


FREEATLAST: The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)
FL: This is a warning for those who want to be justified by the Law, that is by their merits of fulfilling the Law. If the Law curses those who fail to do it perfectly, it all the more curses those who neglect or defy it. ”For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen To the instruction of the LORD” (Isaiah 30:9 NAS)


FREEATLAST: The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)
FL: Since we are sinful, the Law was not given to justify us, but to reveal our sin. We are justified by faith, but justification is with regard to the Law. We would not need any justification, if the were no Law. If one reads the Law as Jesus did, then he/she will say that ”the weightier matters of the LAW (are) judgment, mercy, and FAITH (Matt. 23:23 KJV). Moreover, there is a „Law of faith” (Rom. 3:27 KJV). ”Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” (Rom. 3:31 KJV). The role of the Law was always to ”bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” (Gal. 3:24 KJV), thus the Law leads us to faith.


FREEATLAST: The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)
FL: No, the Scripture does not say that the Law was/is a curse. It deals with the „curse of the Law”, which is the curse that the Law pronounces on the sinner, the curse that fell on Jesus, our vicarious Sacrifice. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, not by cursing the Law, but by accepting the curse of the Law to hang Him on the cross. Thus He became a curse in our stead, that His Law may become a blessing for us by the faith in Jesus.


FREEATLAST: The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)
FL: Paul teaches that the sin could not be accounted before the coming of the Law (Rom 5:13). Therefore the Law was necessary, in order to reveal the sin. Jesus said that the Law and the Prophets (the Jewish reference to the Holy Scripture) PROPHESIED until John. This means that before John the Baptist, the Jews longtime had no living prophet. The Scriptures were their only light. With John, people discovered Jesus Christ. However, the Scriptures remains forever our light. We cannot know Jesus otherwise (Mat 5:17-20).


FREEATLAST: If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)
FL: It works to reveal our sin and condemn us. Is it not enough?


FREEATLAST: The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)
FL: It is a blessed prison, since ”the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given– because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ– to those who believe.” (Gal. 3:22 NET). Now after liberation, one dose not need the regime of prison, but he/she still must freely and willingly obey the law, lest not come back in prison.


FREEATLAST: The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)
FL: There are all kind of slaves in the Bible. What about a slave of God or of Jesus Christ (Rom 1:1; Gal 1:10)? ”So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was OUR DUTY to do.” (Lk. 17:10 KJV) Why a true Christian should be so ready to ignore his DUTY?



FREEATLAST: Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)
FL: The Scripture does not say that the Law itself was a wall of hostility, but it refers to some commandments/ordinances of the Law (written or oral) that prevented a full communion between Jews and pagans (Eph. 2:11-16). Which of the moral commandments of God prevented Jews and non-Jews to worship God together? The Sabbath? It is the best way of breaking walls, since the Israelite was bound by the Law to let free in the Sabbath his slaves and foreigners (Deut 5:14). God welcomed foreigners to the Sabbath keeping (Isa. 56:2-8). The separating wall was built in the court of the second temple.


FREEATLAST: Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)
FL: Yes, skybala is about his own treasure of merits that he gathered when he was a pharisee. But the Law itself is a true treasure. Did you ever read Psalm 119? At least verses 97, 113, 163, 165!


FREEATLAST: The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context) It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)
FL: True, it does not condemn those who keep it, but those who rebel against it. It must be used ”according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God” (1 Tim. 1:11 NAS). Moreover, in the same passage, Paul describes various CAPITAL crimes, according to the order of the Ten Commandments (compare to Ex 20:12-16): V. ”for those who kill (molest) their father or mother (Ex 21:15),” VI. ”for murderers” (Num 35:16-34), VII. ”for the promiscuous, homosexuals” (Dt 22:20-26; Deut 23:17; Ez 16:49-50), VIII. kidnappers (Ex 21:16), IX. for liars and for perjurers (Lev 19:11-12). It is very interesting that Paul mentions some sins before his reference to the fifth commandment (1Tim 1:9): ἀνοσίοις (= sacrilegious: NJB) καὶ βεβήλοις (profane), which is exactly about the 2nd and 3rd commandments, forbidding the profanation of the Lord ‘s name and the Lord’s day.


FREEATLAST: The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)
FL: This Scripture does not refer to the Law in general, much less to the moral commandments. It is only about the Levitical law of priesthood.


FREEATLAST: God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8) It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)
FL: The covenant is new, and its promises are better. But the Law (regarding the moral commandments) remains the same; only it is written in the heart, not just on the stone tables (Heb 8:10).


FREEATLAST: It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)
FL: The Scripture does not say that the Law IS/WAS a shadow, but the Law HAS a shadow. (Just NIV translates IS). The shadow is the system of SACRIFICES, not the moral commandments.

ToBeLoved said:

The Covenant passed away.
Read Jeremiah 31. God told the Hebews/Israelite's about it way before Christ's birth.

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The Word of God says there is a NEW Covenant. Where does it say in the scriptures that the ENTIRE Covenant is passed away? Somethings did pass away but what passed away?

LoveGodsWord said:

The Word of God says there is a NEW Covenant. Where does it say in the scriptures that the entire Covenant is passed away?

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WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD AND NEW COVENANTS LAWS?

It was the Mosaic Laws for sin that were Shadows pointing to the life, death, resurrection of Jesus and his new role as our great high Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary that was finished at the cross. We are no longer required to fulfill the Old Covenant Mosaic laws under the New Covenant because they are all fulfilled in Christ and pointed to him as our sacrificial lamb of God and our great high priest (Hebrews 8; 9; 10).

God's Law however plays the same role as it always has and that is to reveal sin and give us a knowledge of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS (good and evil) James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20

God's Law (10 commandments) are the standard of the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Judgement to come.

Just as the Mosaic laws were temporary pointing to Jesus, God's Law is forever and the standard of the Old Covenant the New Covenant and the Judgement to come......

The Law of God (10 commandments) which includes the 4th commandment is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the very standard of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5).

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

Doug Melven said:

Jesus said to the goats, "I never knew you".
Never means never. At no time did these people have a relationship with Jesus. They did not at one point have a relationship, then later lose it due to lack of works.

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I don't doubt Jesus never knew them...still the Goats thought they knew Jesus...that is so clear to me they way they reacted, as in the "But Jesus?" stance they took. IOW anyone can think they knew Jesus, and not.

Doug Melven said:

For the 2nd question, nobody here is saying you can get saved and then go live however you want.

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Some do say that, flat out.. it's nearly impossible to keep up with anything but some basics, too many different ideas on this so again, if it doesn't apply...

LoveGodsWord said:

God's Word says anyone practicing known, unrepentant sin will not enter into God's Kingdom.
(Acts 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9; Psalms 1:5; 2 Peter 3:7; Jude 1:14-15; Romans 6:23; Ecclesiastes 12:13; Isaiah 1:28; Isaiah 13:9; Isaiah 33:14; Ezekiel 18:20-24; Proverbs 8:36; Ezekiel 33:12.. etc etc etc)

God's Word says known, unrepentant SIN will keep us out of God's Kingdom because it is UNBELIEF in God's Word and we are only saved by believing God and by faith following him who loves all.

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Let's take these verse one at a time.
Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If we reject the only way we can be saved there remains no other way to get saved.
Notice they did not receive the Truth, only the knowledge of it.
Heb 6:4-8
6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
6:7
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
6:8
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
This could be referring to someone who was very close to being saved and then rejected it or someone who was saved and is now quite mature. And then they reject Christ after all of that. Remember, there is a reason God calls us "children". If a young child rejects his parents, will the parents then reject the child and put the child on the street? But, if an adult rejects his/her parents, they have a right to do so.
1 John 2:1-4 Including verse 1 was my idea.
2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

God does not want us to sin, it is not His will for us to sin. But if we do sin Jesus is our advocate/lawyer.
Verses 3 and 4 says if we know Him, we will keep His commandments and if we don't we are a liar and the truth is not in us. I only see that we are to keep His commandments(debate goes on as to which commandments).
I see nothing about repentance in these verses.
1 John 3:3-9
3:3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I don't see anything about repentance here either. Just not sinning.
Psalm 1:5
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
I don't see anything about repentance.
2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
I don't see anything about repentance.
Jude 14-15
1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speecheswhich ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
I don't see anything about repentance.
Roman 6:23
For the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I don't see anything about repentance. I do see that the gift is eternal, not just until the next time we sin.
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
I don't see anything about repentance.
Isaiah 1:28
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
I don't see anything about repentance.
Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
I don't see anything about repentance.
Isaiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
I don't see anything about repentance.
Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Sinning against Christ/Wisdom is a bad thing and will definitely take you further than you want to go and cost you more than you want to pay. But Jesus paid the penalty for sin. See 1 John 2:1-4. But, I still don't see anything about repentance here.
Ezekiel 18:20-24
18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
18:22
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
18:23
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
I see nothing about what Jesus did at the cross. In the Old Testament people had sin imputed to them. Even David had sin imputed to him. When he had Uriah killed his sentence was that he would lose 4 of his children. And he had wars in his household all of his days. David longed for a day when sin would not be imputed to man. See Psalm 32.
Ezekiel 33:12
Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Notice whose righteousness this man has. It is his own, not the everlasting righteousness that we have been given.
That was a lot of Scripture that did not make your point.
Now if a believer could be called a sinner, some of these verses might apply.
But believers are called "saints". We are not defined by what we do, but we are defined by our relationship with Jesus Christ.

When we became a child of God, who we were died. We are now no longer descendants of Adam.
What manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called the children of God

Sinner vs Saint
child of disobedience vs child of God
ungodly vs godly
child of wrath vs workmanship of Christ Jesus
cursed vs blessed
unrighteous vs righteous
unholy vs holy
lost vs found
dead in sins vs alive in Christ Jesus
beloved
accepted in the Beloved
apple of His eye
son/daughter
servant/slave of sin vs servant/slave of God/righteousness
old man vs new man/creation

LoveGodsWord said:

Yep I know I asked these questions many times no one seems to know the answer or wants to answer it.

1. Where does it say in God's Word that God's 4th commandment has been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

2. If someone is living a life in unrepentant sin are they in a saved state before God or an unsaved state?

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1. It has not been abolished...it has been fulfilled by Jesus's death on the cross.
2. Depends on their relationship with Jesus.
(Note that the key word in both of my answers is "Jesus".)

Now would you kindly answer my question? ""Will those who do not observe Saturday Sabbath enter heaven, yes or no?"

Doug Melven said:

Notice whose righteousness this man has. It is his own, not the everlasting righteousness that we have been given. That was a lot of Scripture that did not make your point.
Now if a believer could be called a sinner, some of these verses might apply.
But believers are called "saints". We are not defined by what we do, but we are defined by our relationship with Jesus Christ.

When we became a child of God, who we were died. We are now no longer descendants of Adam.
What manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called the children of God

Sinner vs Saint
child of disobedience vs child of God
ungodly vs godly
child of wrath vs workmanship of Christ Jesus
cursed vs blessed
unrighteous vs righteous
unholy vs holy
lost vs found
dead in sins vs alive in Christ Jesus
beloved
accepted in the Beloved
apple of His eye
son/daughter
servant/slave of sin vs servant/slave of God/righteousness
old man vs new man/creation

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Doug all the scripture made the point. The point was if someone is living a life of UNREPENTANT SIN they will not be in God's KINGDOM. If we are profession Christ but are not following Him by faith that works by love that has the fruit of obedience we are not God's Children (1 John 3:3-10). Many are called but few are chosen.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

ToBeLoved said:

Which covenant than are you under? The Old Covenant?

I'm under the new and better covenant brought by Jesus Christ.

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I seem to be repeating myself; the old covenant was before Christ so I am obviously not under that. The new covenant is since Christ but the covenant has not changed, but merely moved along a timeline. The new covenant is the old covenant fulfilled. A lot of people think Jesus fulfilled the ten commandments perfectly such that they do not need to keep the Law but what Jesus fulfilled was and is still fulfilling is the old covenant or as Daniel put it He is confirming the covenant, transforming promise into reality.

The renewed covenant, if one is familiar with the Gospels, is renewed with the lost sheep of Israel who had been out of covenant with God since before the Babylonian captivity.

LoveGodsWord said:

Yep I know I asked these questions many times no one seems to know the answer or wants to answer it.

1. Where does it say in God's Word that God's 4th commandment has been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

2. If someone is living a life in unrepentant sin are they in a saved state before God or an unsaved state?

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Sabbath was not abolished, it is not anywhere in the New Testament that it was abolished.
However, the Sabbath is no longer about a specific day. Christ is now our Sabbath.
Colossians 2:16-17
2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Looking at other translations we see "body" means substance/reality.
Hebrews 4:1-11
4:1
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4:4
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
4:5
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
4:7
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
4:8
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
In these verses Paul is speaking about the Israelites not entering the Promised Land because of there unbelief.
He is equating what God said about the seventh day to the Promised Land.
Then in verse 8 he says that Joshua did not give them the rest because David is still saying "Today".
So the conclusion is verse 9 God's people still have a rest to enter in.
Then he says in verse 11 we should labor to enter that rest.
Then Jesus says in Matt 11 28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
So we see that Jesus is our Sabbath/rest.

2nd question
Repentance is not about turning from sin.
Repentance comes from the Greek word metanoia which means to change mind.
Repent from trying to get righteous on your own.
Mark 1:15
Repent and believe the Gospel. = Change your mind and believe the Gospel.
Change your mind from what? Sin? We already know sin is evil, we don't want to change that.
We want to stop trying to be righteous on our own. Because all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
If repentance was about sin, why did Jesus have to undergo John's baptism?
Paul said it was a Baptism of repentance. Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
So for Jesus to undergo this baptism He had to stop relying on His own ability to keep the law. He was now operating in faith, relying on the Holy Spirit who will never have us disobey the law.
And I know Jesus was in faith, because after He came up out of the water there was a Voice from Heaven that said, "This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".
Heb 11:6 says, "But without faith it is impossible to please Him".
So we see that the question is an invalid question.
And if you anyone thinks they can turn from every single sin they commit, they are in a state of denial.
They are not believing the things they do are sin.
Nobody can keep these 4 laws all of the time.
Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Live in faith all of the time. Because whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
To do good when you know to do good.

LoveGodsWord said:

The Word of God says there is a NEW Covenant. Where does it say in the scriptures that the entire Covenant is passed away?

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Hebrews I thibk

LoveGodsWord said:

Doug all the scripture made the point. The point was if someone is living a life of UNREPENTANT SIN they will not be in God's KINGDOM. If we are profession Christ but are not following Him by faith that works by love that has the fruit of obedience we are not God's Children (1 John 3:3-10). Many are called but few are chosen.

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If the verses you used apply to being in God's Kingdom His Promise not to impute our sin to us and to be merciful to our unrighteousness and not remember our lawless deeds and iniquities becomes meaningless.
Or do you believe that He only doesn't impute sin to us if we don't sin.

Doug Melven said:

If the verses you used apply to being in God's Kingdom His Promise not to impute our sin to us and to be merciful to our unrighteousness and not remember our lawless deeds and iniquities becomes meaningless.
Or do you believe that He only doesn't impute sin to us if we don't sin.

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"to be merciful to our unrighteousness and not remember our lawless deeds and iniquities" becomes meaningless

Where does this come from, sounds like Jeremiah; if so it is not our in righteousness and lawlessness but theirs the lost sheep of Israel with whom Christ renewed the covenant.

sparow said:

Where does this come from, sounds like Jeremiah; if so it is not our in righteousness and lawlessness but theirs the lost sheep of Israel with whom Christ renewed the covenant.

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Yes, it comes from Jeremiah 31.
If the New Covenant is only for lost sheep of Israel, what covenant are we Gentiles under?
The Old Covenant was given to Israel, not the Gentiles.

LoveGodsWord said:

what is the difference between the Old and New Covenants?

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You asked.
Old Covenant versus New Covenant
God demanded righteousness from man. God imparts righteousness to man through the finished work of .See 10 Commandments Jesus (Romans 4:5-7)

God will visit your sins to the third and God will by no means remember your sins (Hebrews 8:12; 10:17).
fourth generations (Exodus 20:5).

The children of Israel were blessed only Believers don’t have to depend on heir self-efforts to receive God’s blessings,
if they obeyed God’s commandments Ephesians 1:3
perfectly - inwardly and outwardly
(Deuteronomy 28:13-14).

The children of Israel were cursed if Believers can enjoy God’s blessings and undeserved favor because they did not obey God’s commandments Christ became a curse for them on the cross (Galatians 3:13).
perfectly (Deuteronomy 28:15-16, 18, 20).

The blood sacrifices of animals covered The blood of Jesus has removed the sins – past, present and future – of the sins of the children of Israel for believers completely and perfectly, once and for all (Hebrews 10:11-12).
only one year, and the process had to be
repeated every year (Hebrews 10:3).

The children of Israel could not have an Believers can enjoy a close, intimate relationship with God as their Father intimate relationship with God because because they are made righteous by faith in Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17; their unrighteousness put distance Romans 5:7-9; Hebrews 10:10).
between them and God. (Isa 59:2)

The children of Israel could not enter Not only can believers enter God’s holy presence, they can also come holy of holies (where the presence boldly to His throne of grace to find mercy and grace in their time of need because of God was). Only the high priest could, because of Jesus’ perfect atonement (Hebrews 4:16).
and that only once a year, on the Day
of Atonement (Leviticus 16:2, 14).
That didn't come out the way I wanted it to.

Old Covenant versus New Covenant
God demanded righteousness from man.
See 10 Commandments

God imparts righteousness to man through the finished work of Jesus (Romans 4:5-7).

God will visit your sins to the third and
fourth generations (Exodus 20:5).

God will by no means remember your sins (Hebrews 8:12; 10:17).

The children of Israel were blessed only
if they obeyed God’s commandments
perfectly - inwardly and outwardly
(Deuteronomy 28:13-14).

Believers don’t have to depend on heir self-efforts to receive God’s blessings, Ephesians 1:3

The children of Israel were cursed if
they did not obey God’s commandments
perfectly (Deuteronomy 28:15-16, 18, 20).

Believers can enjoy God’s blessings and undeserved favor because Christ became
a curse for them on the cross (Galatians 3:13).

The blood sacrifices of animals covered
the sins of the children of Israel for
only one year, and the process had to be
repeated every year (Hebrews 10:3).

The blood of Jesus has removed the sins – past, present and future – of believers,
completely and perfectly, once and for all (Hebrews 10:11-12).

The children of Israel could not have an
intimate relationship with God because
their unrighteousness put distance
between them and God. (Isa 59:2)

Believers can enjoy a close, intimate relationship with God as their Father
because they are made righteous by faith in Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans
5:7-9; Hebrews 10:10).

The children of Israel could not enter
the holy of holies (where the presence
of God was). Only the high priest could,
and that only once a year, on the Day
of Atonement (Leviticus 16:2, 14).

Not only can believers enter God’s holy presence, they can also come boldly to
His throne of grace to find mercy and grace in their time of need because of
Jesus’ perfect atonement (Hebrews 4:16).

I should have done that in the first place.

ToBeLoved said:

Hebrews I thibk

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Already answered in post # 224

Doug Melven said:

Yes, it comes from Jeremiah 31.
If the New Covenant is only for lost sheep of Israel, what covenant are we Gentiles under?
The Old Covenant was given to Israel, not the Gentiles.

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Both the Old and New Covenant are given to God's people which the scriptures say are those that believe and follow God's Word.

Doug Melven said:

If the verses you used apply to being in God's Kingdom His Promise not to impute our sin to us and to be merciful to our unrighteousness and not remember our lawless deeds and iniquities becomes meaningless.
Or do you believe that He only doesn't impute sin to us if we don't sin.

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This is for the believers that believe and follow God's Word. Not those that a living in known unrepentant sin. Those living in known unrepentant have neither seen him or known him (1 John 3:3-9)

Hi Doug,

I might break your post up into a number of smaller posts otherwise this will be too big. So this will be the first post in relation to your comments below.

Doug Melven said:

Sabbath was not abolished, it is not anywhere in the New Testament that it was abolished.

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Your correct in saying there is no scriptures that says that God's 4th commandment has been abolished because it has not been and there is no scripture. You’re not correct however in saying that the 4th commandment (7th Day Sabbath) is not in the New Testament. This is not true at all.

What did Jesus and the Apostles teach about the Sabbath in the New Testament?

1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)
3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4)
5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
6. Breaking it is sin (1 John 3:4)
7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Rev 14:12; Rev 22:14; Eze 20:20)
8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; Pet 2:20-22)
9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love the fulfils God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says f you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy day.