Using Scripture, prove to me that God love unconditionally

Johnny4ChristJesus said:

I am re-examining a lot of traditionally used theological concepts. I believe in the power of God's Word and believe if the concept is not "of man", it will be found clearly expressed in Scripture. I am looking for a Scriptural validation of the concept, if anyone has one. One of the claims people make is that God loves unconditionally. In examining Scripture, I don't see that concept. His love is greater than any love we can imagine; but it isn't unconditional. I do see that God must preveniently love us (loving us first both collectively and individually) before we can come to really love Him. My bigger concern is that we actually work against God when claiming something about Him that isn't true. And, in this case, we open the door for shackian universalists and others who call Jesus a liar, because they can't fathom an unconditionally loving God sending anyone to hell.

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What is unconditional and to whom is it addressed? Certainly not to all of mankind in general. It is not that God loves unconditionaly, but that He extends the promise to those who accept His invitation. It is up to you, to either reject or accept, a result of free will and acknowledgment that there is in fact, a God. God has a purpose and to thwart that purpose is to reject God's plans. The world is full of those who would rather be drinking, making merry, and only paying attention to what worldly gains they can make or take advantage of as Ecclesastics says, Love, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you die. The question remains: do you wish to die eternally, with no hope beyond that, or do you wish to die "in Christ", as a fellow slave, looking forward to the 2nd coming and New Jerusalem here on earth, as it is in heaven. "The meek shall inherit the earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years."

Johnny4ChristJesus said:

First let me say, I truly appreciate everyone taking the time to offer responses. I don't have to agree with you, to appreciate what you post. If I am wrong, I would much rather find out sooner than later, so I can repent. I takes James' warning (James 3:1) very seriously. If I am wrong, I am misrepresenting God and that is a big deal to me. I don't ever want to be found doing that. I take this very seriously. I'm not just playing a game or trying to create argument. I hope you know that. I believe each time someone posts new Scripture, it gives us another opportunity to continue to diligently seek God on the subject or many related topics.

I believe there is no greater love than God's Love and what is demonstrated between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is absolutely amazing. That we would be invited into that is absolutely incredible! If God is love, then every aspect of Him is part of love--including mercy and judgment. His ways are higher than our ways.

The Son willingly paid the price and that price would cover all. But, only those who believe can receive the benefit of that price paid, according to Scripture (John 3:16, for example). Why? (1) 1 Cor 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (2) According to Jesus, the Father seeks true worshippers who will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (John 4:23). Jesus also said: "And this is the WILL OF HIM who sent Me: that every one who sees the Son, and believes on Him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). "No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).

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first let me say I love the post so far...humility is the very core of Love and we all should not only want to know God but be humble enough to accept that we might be wrong...amen.

Second, when someone talks about Love being conditional they usually go to accepting and hell or some variation thereof but remember there is a difference between accepting Love and having it offered without conditions. I already gave you one example of this in our son let me give you another in another son. Seven years ago our second son died in a freak swimming accident. He is no longer in this world and yet our Love for Him has not changed. Love does NOT have to be accepted to be given and to be given unconditionally.

If the idea of God having "unconditional love" is true, why would we have the following verses (and more) in His Scripture: (1) In Romans 9 we have the discussion that someone else brought up about the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" versus "the vessels of mercy" (Rom 9:22-3) where Paul shares the story of Moses and Pharoah saying: "therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens.... Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" (Rom 9:18,21). (2) Then there is the Romans 1 discussion about some being turned over to progressively worsening things culminating in being turned over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28-32) (3) In 2 Thes 2:11-12, we are told: "For this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

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two somewhat separate ideas and yet related, let's take them apart first then put them back together.

1. vessels of wrath, okay I like to go to Pharaoh who was an example of what God is talking about here. Romans 9:17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Now notice a few things here...where God had a plan for Pharaoh and because of that plan he hardened Pharaoh's heart, what happened next? He repented and let the children of Israel leave then hardened his heart again. This is important. Where God hardened his heart so that He could accomplish His plan and purpose He did NOT remove from Pharaoh the opportunity for him to turn from his evil and turn to God. The Love never left...the Love was unconditional...just because God used him for a purpose that required he have a hardened heart does not mean that he no longer had the free will to choose for himself. In fact, I would propose to you that God already knew what Pharaoh would decide the reason He chose Pharaoh for the task that needed done.

2. Then we go to strong delusions...this one is more like defiant children that refuse to listen to correction. Think of it this way, the kid who wants to smoke and no one can convince him it is a bad idea so grandpa decides to teach the kid a lesson and let's him smoke till he throws up. Grandpa gave him over to his "reprobate minds". This is the picture we see here.

3. Putting it back together...no where in these verses do we see any condition placed on God's Love. We see God using us for His purpose but not conditions on His Love. His Love does not change.

For these reasons, I still believe that His Love toward the individual man is both necessarily prevenient (first) and conditional (no one will be forced into receiving His love, forced to remain in a loving relationship with Him, or allowed to receive the blessings of what He did for us who choose to; but every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord).

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okay, but you still have failed to show what conditions are on God's Love...you have shown conditions for receiving the benefits of that Love much as our son is not receiving the benefits of our Love for him because of his stubborn willfulness, but we are not talking about receiving the benefits of the Love we are talking about whether the Love itself has conditions. IOWs a conditional Love would say, I will Love you if you do X for me. We do not see that in scripture. What we see in scripture is God saying, I Love you do matter, if you want to understand and receive the benefits of that Love you much accept it as yours....you know, like a free gift, if the gift is free to you but you don't reach out and take it, the gift was not removed from you, it was still yours free of charge.

I don't think that insults God. I don't think God has to unconditionally love in order to be a good, righteous, or loving God. I don't think God loving unconditionally is a necessary requirement for any other part of His character. I don't believe what Jesus did falls apart, if God's love requires a certain response to receive it or to continue to receive it (conditional). If the ekklesia is the bride of Christ, would Christ be wrong to expect a bride that doesn't commit adultery with even the most impotent things?

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Now your confusing me. I don't think conditional Love "hurts" God at all but it does hurt the message of Christ and the cross and the salvation found within. See, if God's Love is conditional then I must do X, Y, or Z in order to be loved...or I might need to have the right name...iows Love is only extended to those who God deems necessary to gift it to. This means that I would not receive Love because I have sinned and fallen short. But God gives unconditional Love, meaning, I don't have to do X, Y, or Z nor have the right name to receive His Love. Praise God none of us has to appease God in order to be Loved. Now that does not mean there isn't a responsibility involved in accepting that Love, we become children which has responsibility tied to it, but none of us could be saved if God's Love was conditional...or at least most of us couldn't...so let me ask you this...if God's Love is conditional, what do I have to do or what name do I have to have in order to appease God and earn His Love? This was a teaching that Paul gave the children of Israel when they were talking about God's Love being extended even to the gentiles. It is a Love without favoritism....Romans 2:11

Someone posted above about "abiding (remaining) in His love." Jesus said things like this: "As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you: continue in My love. If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." (John 15:9-10) "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends, if you do whatsoever I command you. (John 15:13-4). "He that overcomes,...I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life." (Rev 3:5) In Jesus' prayer to the Father, He said this: "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given Me; for they are yours....Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word." (John 17:9, 20)

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amen...but remember, when we accept God's Love we are given the title of Child of the King. An adopted child has responsibility to become part of the household they are now a part of....that is all we see here in these passages...what being a child of the King looks like.

On this thread, I read of someone who talked about a wayward son and still loving him and hoping he will come home. We could also read of that kind of thing from the parents of a wayward pop music star. The story of the prodigal son comes to mind, here. I don't take this subject lightly, because of some things that I have had to go through in my walk with God. My empathy is truly there for those who have had to endure the falling away or any personal loss of children. But my question is this: is willingness to forgive at the first sign of repentence the same as "unconditional love"? Is an ever-present hope for repentence and willingness to accept back equal to unconditional love? Is Jesus allowing Himself to be killed for all those who would choose to follow Him, love for all (unconditional) or love for those who would believe in Him (conditional)? Jesus knew that not all would come. He spoke about that.

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It seems you are confusing what unconditional means...unconditional means it is given without conditions. Christ did that on the cross when He died so that anyone and everyone that wanted to come could come and receive the same inheritance. This is unconditional Love. Conditional Love is that Love which requires us to be or do something in order to earn the Love that is being put in front of us.

Another question was posted on this thread: Is loving less the same as unconditional love, since they are still loved? Wouldn't "unconditional love" necessarily mean loving everyone equally? If I love those who agree with me and "love less" those who don't, doesn't that mean I am loving you conditionally?

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First the less and more issue was in conjunction with love and hate which are worldly opposites not Biblical opposites. Second more or less Love is what exactly? biblical Love is a very fine tuned well characterized idea. (I Cor. 13) as such, the crumbs of real Love are enough to sustain us for a lifetime and beyond. However, let's look at I Cor. 13...Love is patient...what is more longsuffering and less long suffering? Love is kind...kind here is a useful kindness, it does something useful...what would doing something useful look like compared to doing something useful? We can do this for every characteristic listed...Love rejoices in truth...what would more or less rejoicing in truth look like? As I said, the more or less love is a worldly love not an agape Love.

Johnny4ChristJesus said:

I am interested how you reached this conclusion? How are pride and love opposites, but love and hate are not? Where is your Scriptural support?

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I wish I have about 10 weeks to show you all the biblical support for this....let me start with a definition then we will move into scripture...in fact, if I can find it quickly I might post a portion of the study that this comes from.

Love is putting another above self in an act of humility creating a covenant whose intent/purpose is reconciliation/restoration.

As such humility is the core of Love, it is the hub from which all the characteristics come from. The source of Love is God but the core is humility....okay, elevator music for a few moments....

Not the version I was looking for but should suffice....

Scripture tells us that God is love. Love is the center, the core of who God is, His very nature is love. Everything that radiates from God starts with love. His commands, His law, His judgment, His redemption, His gifts, all are centered around the very nature of God, a nature whose purpose is love.



I John 4:7-8 (NIV)Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


1 John 4:16 (NIV)And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.


Love is said to sum up all the law and the prophets. It is God's command to us His people. Love is the key to understanding God and what He wills for us His people. Everything God has ever done, and all that He is doing, everything He will do, is rooted in Love. When we begin to understand love we begin to understand God and when we begin to understand God we begin to understand Love.


Matthew 7:12 (NIV)So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.


Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV) Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


Galatians 5:14 (NIV) The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."


Love is in fact so important that it not only sums up the law and prophets, but it fulfills the law as well. A love that reveals God's heart and mind. A law whose intent and purpose is our protection. A law that is not burdensome to us because we understand and accept that the laws intent is love. Our very victory over the world is found in the midst of this love. When new things come into our world, it is love that tells us what is and is not sin. Understanding love is the very basic, beginning of our spiritual journey.


I John 5:3-4 (NIV) In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.


Romans 13:8-10 (NIV) Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Love then becomes a vital part of our understanding in this relationship journey we have chosen to embark on with the living God. But as many people have pointed out, defining love is much harder than it might appear. The definition of the worldly view of love might be something like, “a strong like for something or someone”. Websters defines love as...a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests b : an assurance of affection 2: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion Yet God's love is a fierce, deep, powerful, abiding love which takes us far beyond a simple strong attachment. It is a love so huge that (John 21:5 NIV) “If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”


As we study the biblical definition of love we discover some very interesting things that should compel us and change us and increase our understanding of what real love is. This study is about the pictures of love that scripture provides for us. Snapshots so to speak of a God who loves His people with a passion, with an unconditional love and wants them to share that love with the world. The love we speak of, is the love of a God who wants us to understand what love is and why it is the greatest of all the gifts He bestows upon us. But before we start our voyage into these pictures of love, let's take a few moments to define Biblical love.



Biblical love is putting another above self in an act of humility, creating a covenant whose purpose is to restore. Before you panic over this definition, let's take it apart and look at some of the key words, then we will put it back together for an even clearer understanding of what this amazing love of our Lord really is.


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Putting another above self

First we come up against the idea of putting another above self. The worlds standard is “me first”. The world watches out for “number one”. Time and time again, the world tells us that if we don't watch out for ourselves no one will. We are bombarded with these messages in our families, schools, media, and sadly sometimes in the church. But love, real, Biblical love, is not focused on self but rather on others. Biblical love is about changing our focus, shifting our attention off of self and putting that attention on someone else. Consider these passage, all commanding us to love others the same way we love ourselves.

Matthew 22:39 (NIV) And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
Leviticus 19:18 (NIV) “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Matthew 19:19 (NIV) honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.
James 2:8 (NIV) If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.
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Humility

Without humility, putting another above self is a somewhat meaningless activity in self denial. The real meaning of love takes on life and transformation when it is spurred by humility. The humility we are called to is a mirror of the humility Jesus had when He emptied Himself and came to earth as a man. A humility in which we begin to fathom who we really are not only in the world but in the body of Christ. It is not a humility that throws us into a state of depression or self loathing, but rather a humility that knows that though we have nothing of value to offer, we are loved more than words can say. Loved with an eternal, enduring, everlasting love, simply because we are.



There are times in this life, when every ounce of our being is challenged to something greater. Everything about us cries out to be human and yet, deep within is a nudging that we are familiar with, a glimmer of something bigger that wants to grow, seeks to become our primary, not our secondary. In those moments, we get to decide which we will live for, self or God. The emptying of ourselves of glory is a humility that was so consuming that it changed a world for all of eternity.


Philippians 2:1-7 ish


In order just to love us unto repentance, Jesus our Christ had to give up, crucify self, empty Himself so that the following things begin to define for us what real humility is...(I'm sure this is only a partial list...)


Christ gave up: His heavenly glory and in so doing, live among men (John 17:4-5)
Christ gave up: His face to face communication with God the Father (John 17:5)
Christ gave up: His Godly authority by being subject to the Father's will (Matt. 26:39; John 5:30; Heb. 5:8)
Christ gave up: His divine attributes by becoming not just a man, but an uncomely man (Mat. 24:36; John 1:45-49)
Christ gave up: His eternal riches (II Cor. 8:9)
Christ gave up: His relationship with God, when He took upon Himself the sin of the world and God could not look upon Him in that sin..."my God my God why have you forsaken me" (Mat. 27:46)

Christ gave up: His God nature (Luke 2:52; Gal. 4:4; Col. 1:22)
Christ gave up: His authority of a man by becoming a servant, the lowest of all men (Rom. 15:7-9; Phil. 2:6-8)
Christ gave up: His very life (John 10:11, 17-18; Luke 23:46)
Christ gave up: His pride as He endured humiliation even of that of the cross (Deuteronomy 21:22-23; Galatians 3:13)
Christ gave up: His right to defend Himself, when He opened not His mouth. (Isaiah 53:7)
Christ gave up: His right to self, by obedience (Philippians 2:8)

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Covenant

Covenants are promises with umph. It is a bond that cannot simply be broken. A pledge to a commitment that is lasting. A covenant is a contract held by blood to be binding and lasting. God gave us a covenant of blood, a lasting covenant, an eternal covenant in His son who gave Himself on the cross that we might live. Love is a covenant, a pledge to endure, to not judge, to rejoice in the truth, it is a bond that cannot be broken. Without this covenant, love becomes nothing more than nice words or the worldly understanding of a strong affection. With covenant, love becomes a strong bond that changes situations and transforms lives. Love becomes a powerful tool to draw men and woman together, uniting them to something greater, to a higher purpose. Covenant creates a bond where conditions don't exist and love always prevails.

Ephesians 2:12-13 (NIV) remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


Hebrews 8:6 (NIV) But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.


Hebrews 13:20-21 (NIV) Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

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Restoration

The real value of a man/woman/child is in the love they receive and give. Without this love value, a man's/woman's/child's life is without meaning. Sin strips us from life as well as our innocence and value. Sin removes from us the love value we were created to hold within us. With the removal of this value, life becomes meaningless. The very purpose for which man was created, was that of love, and so with the return of love into our lives, we see a restoration of purpose and value unlike anything this world can offer. With love, life takes on meaning and we discover that we do have value a value of a lasting kind.


Galatians 6:1-3 (NIV) Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. Carry each others burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves.


I Peter 5:10 (NIV) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.


II Timothy 2:10 (NIV) Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.



Scripture tells us that God is love. Love is the center, the core of who God is, His very nature is love. Everything that radiates from God starts with love. His commands, His law, His judgment, His redemption, His gifts, all are centered around the very nature of God, a nature whose purpose is love.



I John 4:7-8 (NIV)Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


1 John 4:16 (NIV)And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.


Love is said to sum up all the law and the prophets. It is God's command to us His people. Love is the key to understanding God and what He wills for us His people. Everything God has ever done, and all that He is doing, everything He will do, is rooted in Love. When we begin to understand love we begin to understand God and when we begin to understand God we begin to understand Love.


Matthew 7:12 (NIV)So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.


Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV) Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


Galatians 5:14 (NIV) The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."


Love is in fact so important that it not only sums up the law and prophets, but it fulfills the law as well. A love that reveals God's heart and mind. A law whose intent and purpose is our protection. A law that is not burdensome to us because we understand and accept that the laws intent is love. Our very victory over the world is found in the midst of this love. When new things come into our world, it is love that tells us what is and is not sin. Understanding love is the very basic, beginning of our spiritual journey.


I John 5:3-4 (NIV) In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.


Romans 13:8-10 (NIV) Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Love then becomes a vital part of our understanding in this relationship journey we have chosen to embark on with the living God. But as many people have pointed out, defining love is much harder than it might appear. The definition of the worldly view of love might be something like, “a strong like for something or someone”. Websters defines love as...a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests b : an assurance of affection 2: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion Yet God's love is a fierce, deep, powerful, abiding love which takes us far beyond a simple strong attachment. It is a love so huge that (John 21:5 NIV) “If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

Johnny4ChristJesus said:

I am interested how you reached this conclusion? How are pride and love opposites, but love and hate are not? Where is your Scriptural support?

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Also notice that the world version of love is a strong positive emotion. As such hate is a strong negative emotion, thus opposites.

Biblical Love however is emotion, action, attitude and more (I can find the passages if you want...but consider Christ's prayer in the garden (emotion) His suffering and death (action) His call to live Love (attitude) ) as such an emotion cannot be the opposite even if the emotion is a strong one. It would have to be something that involves emotion, action, attitude and more. Now most people who hate do not do so as an attitude for life but rather as a reaction to a stimuli.

So there is another way we know that Love and hate are not the same...like I said I wish I had about 10 weeks and unlimited space to show you all of it.

Here are six verses that I believe will help define what Godly "hatred" means in Scripture. I understand that the topic is whether Yahweh and Christ love unconditionally, and I think that these verses may very well answer that question.

Psalms 5:

Matthew 7:

Psalms 6:

Matthew 13:

Matthew 25:

Revelation 20:

The conditional appears to be "iniquity" which is interpreted, "lawlessness."

With hatred like this, I believe the opposite must be a Godly and righteous Love that is beyond infinite. Praise be to Yahweh for the victory in Christ!

I'm not at this time able to add anything more to the discussion. Thank you!

Neal of Zebulun said:

Here are six verses that I believe will help define what Godly "hatred" means in Scripture. I understand that the topic is whether Yahweh and Christ love unconditionally, and I think that these verses may very well answer that question.

Psalms 5:

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.​

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Psalms 6:

8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for Yahweh hath heard the voice of my weeping.​

Matthew 13:

41 The Son of Adam shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

Matthew 25:

41 ..Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The conditional appears to be "iniquity" which is interpreted, "lawlessness."

With hatred like this, I believe the opposite must be a Godly and righteous Love that is beyond infinite. Praise be to Yahweh for the victory in Christ!

I'm not at this time able to add anything more to the discussion. Thank you!

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This passage should also give us some clarity Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

contrast that to this passage, since scripture can interpret scripture for us...I John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Now is scripture telling us that we have to be murderers who are not inheritors of eternal life in order to follow Christ? Of course not. In context what is being said is that we have to Love God more than we Love our family, or in other words, put God first in our lives.

Johnny4ChristJesus said:

First let me say, I truly appreciate everyone taking the time to offer responses. I don't have to agree with you, to appreciate what you post. If I am wrong, I would much rather find out sooner than later, so I can repent. I takes James' warning (James 3:1) very seriously. If I am wrong, I am misrepresenting God and that is a big deal to me. I don't ever want to be found doing that. I take this very seriously. I'm not just playing a game or trying to create argument. I hope you know that. I believe each time someone posts new Scripture, it gives us another opportunity to continue to diligently seek God on the subject or many related topics.

I believe there is no greater love than God's Love and what is demonstrated between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is absolutely amazing. That we would be invited into that is absolutely incredible! If God is love, then every aspect of Him is part of love--including mercy and judgment. His ways are higher than our ways.

The Son willingly paid the price and that price would cover all. But, only those who believe can receive the benefit of that price paid, according to Scripture (John 3:16, for example). Why? (1) 1 Cor 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (2) According to Jesus, the Father seeks true worshippers who will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (John 4:23). Jesus also said: "And this is the WILL OF HIM who sent Me: that every one who sees the Son, and believes on Him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). "No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).

If the idea of God having "unconditional love" is true, why would we have the following verses (and more) in His Scripture: (1) In Romans 9 we have the discussion that someone else brought up about the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" versus "the vessels of mercy" (Rom 9:22-3) where Paul shares the story of Moses and Pharoah saying: "therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens.... Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" (Rom 9:18,21). (2) Then there is the Romans 1 discussion about some being turned over to progressively worsening things culminating in being turned over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28-32) (3) In 2 Thes 2:11-12, we are told: "For this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

For these reasons, I still believe that His Love toward the individual man is both necessarily prevenient (first) and conditional (no one will be forced into receiving His love, forced to remain in a loving relationship with Him, or allowed to receive the blessings of what He did for us who choose to; but every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord). I don't think that insults God. I don't think God has to unconditionally love in order to be a good, righteous, or loving God. I don't think God loving unconditionally is a necessary requirement for any other part of His character. I don't believe what Jesus did falls apart, if God's love requires a certain response to receive it or to continue to receive it (conditional). If the ekklesia is the bride of Christ, would Christ be wrong to expect a bride that doesn't commit adultery with even the most impotent things?

Someone posted above about "abiding (remaining) in His love." Jesus said things like this: "As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you: continue in My love. If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." (John 15:9-10) "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends, if you do whatsoever I command you. (John 15:13-4). "He that overcomes,...I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life." (Rev 3:5) In Jesus' prayer to the Father, He said this: "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given Me; for they are yours....Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word." (John 17:9, 20)

On this thread, I read of someone who talked about a wayward son and still loving him and hoping he will come home. We could also read of that kind of thing from the parents of a wayward pop music star. The story of the prodigal son comes to mind, here. I don't take this subject lightly, because of some things that I have had to go through in my walk with God. My empathy is truly there for those who have had to endure the falling away or any personal loss of children. But my question is this: is willingness to forgive at the first sign of repentence the same as "unconditional love"? Is an ever-present hope for repentence and willingness to accept back equal to unconditional love? Is Jesus allowing Himself to be killed for all those who would choose to follow Him, love for all (unconditional) or love for those who would believe in Him (conditional)? Jesus knew that not all would come. He spoke about that.

Another question was posted on this thread: Is loving less the same as unconditional love, since they are still loved? Wouldn't "unconditional love" necessarily mean loving everyone equally? If I love those who agree with me and "love less" those who don't, doesn't that mean I am loving you conditionally?

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No. unconditional love means loving someone without any reserve. If your son or daughter died a sinner you would have forgiven them regardless of what were their sins. Even if the person was a brother or sister in Christ and fell off on the wrong path, it is your responsibility to unconditionally Love them. It is not our place to pass judgement. P.S. I didn't expect a reply that was a sermon but keep on believing.

razzelflabben said:

This passage should also give us some clarity Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

contrast that to this passage, since scripture can interpret scripture for us...I John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Now is scripture telling us that we have to be murderers who are not inheritors of eternal life in order to follow Christ? Of course not. In context what is being said is that we have to Love God more than we Love our family, or in other words, put God first in our lives.

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John 15:13 ...that one lay down his life for a friend" means more than what you would think. it implies that you give up your personal worldly life and present yourself as a Christian example. To give up your own sinful way and the love of personal gain just for a financial future and the so called prestige of being number one in your employment or life. To be a friend of the world is eminity with God. James 4:4

razzelflabben said:

This passage should also give us some clarity Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

contrast that to this passage, since scripture can interpret scripture for us...I John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Now is scripture telling us that we have to be murderers who are not inheritors of eternal life in order to follow Christ? Of course not. In context what is being said is that we have to Love God more than we Love our family, or in other words, put God first in our lives.

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Consider who is a "brother" to Christ:

Matthew 12:

Compare:

Matthew 7:

In Luke 14:26, He's referring to biological family members. 1 John 3:15 is talking about brothers in Christ.

So the definition of hatred doesn't have to change in those passages, but the concept of "brother" is Scripturally stated to be different.

That said, the end is still not yet. Yahweh and Christ will save who they will save, even if they're a sinner like Paul was.

Amen.

he-man said:

John 15:13 ...that one lay down his life for a friend" means more than what you would think. it implies that you give up your personal worldly life and present yourself as a Christian example. To give up your own sinful way and the love of personal gain just for a financial future and the so called prestige of being number one in your employment or life. To be a friend of the world is eminity with God. James 4:4

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amen....I often remind people of Galatians 2:20 and remind them that crucifixion is a slow painful death...we are to crucify the old man and the fleshly desires and it is a slow painful process but one with great rewards....amen

Neal of Zebulun said:

Consider who is a "brother" to Christ:

Matthew 12:

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.​

Compare:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

In Luke 14:26, He's referring to biological family members. 1 John 3:15 is talking about brothers in Christ.

So the definition of hatred doesn't have to change in those passages, but the concept of "brother" is Scripturally stated to be different.

That said, the end is still not yet. Yahweh and Christ will save who they will save, even if they're a sinner like Paul was.

Amen.

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amen to Christ being our brother. In fact it is one of the 13 expressions of God's Love that I found in my first study of Biblical Love...I am quite sure I am not following the rest of this post however, please clarify...thanks in advance.

razzelflabben said:

amen to Christ being our brother. In fact it is one of the 13 expressions of God's Love that I found in my first study of Biblical Love...I am quite sure I am not following the rest of this post however, please clarify...thanks in advance.

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So whoever does "the will of my Father which is in heaven" is a brother you should not hate, but whoever does not do "the will of my Father which is in heaven" is a "worker of iniquity" who is cast "into a furnace of fire," when He says, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels," which is "the lake of fire and brimstone", where they shall be "tormented day and night for ever and ever."

David in the Psalms calls that "hatred" (which Yahushua quotes indirectly.)

Neal of Zebulun said:

So whoever does "the will of my Father which is in heaven" is a brother you should not hate, but whoever does not do "the will of my Father which is in heaven" is a "worker of iniquity" who is cast "into a furnace of fire," when He says, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels," which is "the lake of fire and brimstone", where they shall be "tormented day and night for ever and ever."

David in the Psalms calls that "hatred" (which Yahushua quotes.)

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hum, still not sure I am following, are you suggesting that we should hate people for choosing hell? I showed in Thayer's Lexicon (do you know what a Lexicon is?) what that word hate means and I showed in context of the entire bible what it means...shall we try again? I really am confused by what your point is...I am seriously not trying to be difficult just not understanding what you are laying down and I really want to understand.

You talk about Psalms....Let me ask you a question? Would God ask us to do something He couldn't or wouldn't do?

Here is why I ask...

Psa 11:5

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. H8130

Notice that hate for our enemies is being talked about...yet this passage says to Love our enemies....Matthew 5:44...unless you believe God to be a liar or to ask us to do what He cannot or will not do Love and hate can reside together. It's the only way to reconcile all of scripture.

Now admittedly I am not be following you which is why I asked for clarification and I am still not sure that your clarification is making sense to me but I am trying to understand what your point is.

razzelflabben said:

hum, still not sure I am following, are you suggesting that we should hate people for choosing hell? I showed in Thayer's Lexicon (do you know what a Lexicon is?) what that word hate means and I showed in context of the entire bible what it means...shall we try again? I really am confused by what your point is...I am seriously not trying to be difficult just not understanding what you are laying down and I really want to understand.

You talk about Psalms....Let me ask you a question? Would God ask us to do something He couldn't or wouldn't do?

Here is why I ask...

Psa 11:5

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. H8130

Notice that hate for our enemies is being talked about...yet this passage says to Love our enemies....Matthew 5:44...unless you believe God to be a liar or to ask us to do what He cannot or will not do Love and hate can reside together. It's the only way to reconcile all of scripture.

Now admittedly I am not be following you which is why I asked for clarification and I am still not sure that your clarification is making sense to me but I am trying to understand what your point is.

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Matthew 5:

1 Corinthians 15:
Do you pray that Christ won't destroy our enemies?

Do you love death?

Proverbs 8:

Revelation 20:

Do you work against Yahweh by praying for and blessing Satan, who is already condemned?

Or are you saying that John, the beloved disciple's Revelation is false prophecy?

I think you are stuck on the meaning of words, and have totally ignored what happens to those who do not "the will of my Father which is in heaven."

John, the beloved disciple of Yahushua Christ, gives us wisdom and understanding:

1 John 5:


He would not bother telling you this if he didn't love you, who are chosen of Elohiym, who are pearls he doesn't want thrown before swine or cast unto dogs.

Matthew 7:

Focus your prayers on who Yahweh and Christ want to be saved. The rest is vanity.

Amen.

Neal of Zebulun said:

It's easier to show that Yahweh doesn't love everyone:

Romans 9:

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​

Hebrews 12:

16 ..Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.​

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.​

Malachi 1:

2 I have loved you, saith Yahweh. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith Yahweh: yet I loved Jacob,​

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.​

4 Whereas Edom [which is another name for Esau] saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith Yahweh of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom Yahweh hath indignation for ever.​

Wow.

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But God blessed Esau greatly and gave his children the land of Edom. God even blesses those He hates with loving kindness.

DavidFirth said:

But God blessed Esau greatly and gave his children the land of Edom. God even blesses those He hates with loving kindness.

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Did the events in Malachi happen before or after Esau settled their inheritance?

In Malachi 1:2-4, what is Yahweh doing to their land, inheritance and buildings? For how long will He continue doing it?

Neal of Zebulun said:

Did the events in Malachi happen before or after Esau settled their inheritance?

In Malachi 1:2-4, what is Yahweh doing to their land, inheritance and buildings? For how long will He continue doing it?

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Well, God could have struck Esau and his children down dead but instead allowed them to live and blessed Esau with many possessions.