Acts 2 vs 1 Cor 14

swordsman1

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There was no seating in the temple court you refer to. This is obviously a stretch on your part.

Really? Then how do you explain this verse?

Luke 2:46 "After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions"

The people who heard them speaking were obviously being drawn by God to the Son for salvation.

That doesn't answer my question. Where in those verses or any other verse does it say God performed a miracle of hearing in the ears of the crowd?

Plug foreign languages into any of the occurrences in the book of Acts or the Corinthian ministries and you'll easily see how it doesn't make sense.

I can't and won't lead you through it here. If you care to you will do it yourself and see just how silly it would be.

I already have. They all make perfect sense as foreign languages, even the verse that charismatic teachers quote most to argue for non-human tongues, 1 Cor 14:2 (when it is not taken out of context). If you can't provide a single verse where foreign language doesn't fit then we can only draw our own conclusions.

What I have said is that it makes more sense to see all of the instances of tongues in the light of a miraculous "Holy Spirit" language of some sort than to see them as known languages.

How anybody can see the disciples speaking a non-human language and the crowd understanding them via a miraculous interpretation in their ears simply from the verse "they heard them speaking in the own language" is completely beyond me (and virtually all commentators including charismatics and pentecostals). But people here can judge for themselves whether it holds any credence.

I am unaware of any church on the face of the earth which practices the Corinthian related directions for the use of tongues in messages, prayer, prophecies or any other way which does so in known languages.

You're right there. Practicing tongues as the bible describes it would be a hard act to follow, and would soon prove whether it was true or not. Hence we don't see it.

Something like 1/3 of all evangelicals on earth currently practice tongues in a different way than you believe (of disbelieve) in.

The fact that millions of Christians believe a wrong doctrine doesn't make it right. Millions believe in Arminianism and RC doctrines. Does that make them right?

Most of the effective evangelizing in the far corners of the world is being carried out by people who believe as I do concerning the practice of tongues in their private lives and in services.

Success in evangelism does not prove a correct doctrine. Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses are also successful in evangelism.

You are welcome to it I suppose. But why you would feel the need to take a chance of being found fighting against what the Holy Spirit is doing in this world in this day - I really can't understand.

You are assuming that what people call tongues today is the same tongues of the New Testament. It is not. Nowhere in scripture is tongues described as a non-human language. Not even the Pentecostalism's most prominent theologian Gordon Fee is willing to affirm that today's 'tongues' is New Testament tongues. The most he is willing to say is that it is something analogous to NT tongues.

Gordon Fee - God’s Empowering Presence, p890
The question as to whether the “speaking in tongues” in contemporary Pentecostal and charismatic communities is the same in kind as that in the Pauline churches is moot – and probably somewhat irrelevant. There is simply no way to know. As an experienced phenomenon, it is analogous to theirs, meaning that it is understood to be a supernatural activity of the Spirit, which function in many of the same ways, and for many of its practitioners has similar value to that described by Paul.

What you and millions of others have experienced in not the gift of tongues as described in the New Testament, but rather a physiological phenomenon of the flesh whereby the human speech organs go into 'autopilot' and produce strings of random syllables. It has been thoroughly studied by professional linguists and anthropologists and found to contain no linguistic structure. The most respected is by Dr. William Samarin of the University of Toronto who did a 10 year study of Pentecostal tongues. Here are some excerpts from his study:

"There is no mystery about glossolalia. Tape recorded samples are easy to obtain and to analyze. They always turn out to be the same things: strings of syllables made up of sounds taken from among all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but which nevertheless emerge as word-like or sentence-like units”

"The speaker controls the rhythm, volume, speed and inflection of his speech so that the sounds emerge as pseudo- language -- in the form of words and sentences. Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language.”

"All specimens of glossolalia that have ever been studied have produced no features that would even suggest that they reflect some kind of communicative system.”

“And it has already been established that no special power needs to take over a person's vocal organs; all of us are equipped with everything we need to produce glossolalia”

"Glossolalia is not a supernatural phenomenon....It is similar to many other kinds of speech humans produce in more or less normal circumstances, in more or less normal psychological states. In fact, anybody can produce glossolalia if he is uninhibited and if he discovers what the "trick" is"
 
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brinny

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Where does it say they were known human languages?

Paul uses phrases like "tongues of men AND ANGELS," and "unknown tongue." Without any notation that what was spoken was human, it would fall into those categories. Not human.

And if they were known languages, why do we need the gift of interpretation?

"Angelic" does not mean necessarily of "God". Angelic and spiritual realms are described in God's Word, where it is written that there is spiritual warfare raging in "high places". Deception is rampant. "Tongues" can thus be a part of that deception. As it is written, even Satan can appear as an "angel of light". That is why we are admonished to examine and test "all things" to see if it is of God, and why we are admonished to do this:

2-corinthians-10-4-5.jpg
 
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Dave-W

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"Angelic" does not mean necessarily of "God". Angelic and spiritual realms are described in God's Word, where it is written that there is spiritual warfare raging in "high places". Deception is rampant. "Tongues" can thus be a part of that deception. As it is written, even Satan can appear as an "angel of light". That is why we are admonished to examine and test "all things" to see if it is of God,
Yes I get that. I have dealt with a demon of false tongues before. In fact, "speaking in tongues" is a fundamental belief of Mormonism. Clearly that is NOT from the Holy Spirit. Discernment is needed.
 
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brinny

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Yes I get that. I have dealt with a demon of false tongues before. In fact, "speaking in tongues" is a fundamental belief of Mormonism. Clearly that is NOT from the Holy Spirit. Discernment is needed.

Thank you for the clarification. More needs to be written on this, as there is much much confusion and enamoring of this "gift", and no discernment if it is even of the living God. Satan can use any means necessary to deceive, and he does.
 
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brinny

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Yes I get that. I have dealt with a demon of false tongues before. In fact, "speaking in tongues" is a fundamental belief of Mormonism. Clearly that is NOT from the Holy Spirit. Discernment is needed.

Would you care to elaborate on this?:
I have dealt with a demon of false tongues before.
Thank you kindly.
 
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brinny

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Dave-W

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I was referring to you stating this:
Ah. OK. The first time was a guy I had JUST brought to the Lord. He was only a couple of months into his salvation. He had prayed for the baptism in/of/with the Holy spirit and he had spoken in tongues. But then one day we were all praying together and his tongues changed to something half mumbled half slurred. I had a very cold feeling like someone just doused me with a bucket of ice water. Something in the back of my head said "False tongues." I had never heard of such a thing but I took authority over it in the name of Jesus and it came out. He never mumbled his tongues again.

After a few years I ran into someone else that had it. Same result.
 
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brinny

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Ah. OK. The first time was a guy I had JUST brought to the Lord. He was only a couple of months into his salvation. He had prayed for the baptism in/of/with the Holy spirit and he had spoken in tongues. But then one day we were all praying together and his tongues changed to something half mumbled half slurred. I had a very cold feeling like someone just doused me with a bucket of ice water. Something in the back of my head said "False tongues." I had never heard of such a thing but I took authority over it in the name of Jesus and it came out. He never mumbled his tongues again.

After a few years I ran into someone else that had it. Same result.

What is it from?
 
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Dave-W

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Aah, ok. Is it Satan that is giving these ones involved in the occult, these "demonic tongues"?
That is how I understand it.
 
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brinny

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That is how I understand it.

I appreciate your feedback. This needs to be discussed more, as many are confused about what is of God and what isn't.

Satan takes full advantage of it.
 
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Dave-W

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I appreciate your feedback. This needs to be discussed more, as many are confused about what is of God and what isn't.

Satan takes full advantage of it.
indeed he does.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
 
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brinny

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indeed he does.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

Satan is most successful when one has not bowed down their knee and/or their "will" to the living God.

This verse below is key. And it's the submitting part that is "key" here, which is tragically overlooked:

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." ~James 4:7
 
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Dave-W

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This verse below is key. And it's the submitting part that is "key" here, which is tragically overlooked:

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." ~James 4:7
Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
 
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brinny

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brinny said:
This verse below is key. And it's the submitting part that is "key" here, which is tragically overlooked:

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." ~James 4:7
Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Thank you for the verse. Is it in response to the earlier post about demonic tongues?
 
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Hillsage

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You seriously think thousands of foreigners squeezed into a room in a normal dwelling house to witness the 120 disciples speak in tongues? The word house (οἶκος) can mean any kind of building, including the Temple or any of its associated structures. "He went into the house of God" (Luke 6:3), "It is written, ‘My house is a house of prayer," (Luke 19:46). Clearly it was where there were thousands of foreigners gathered for the Feast of Pentecost.



Not in the Temple courts they wouldn't (I should have been more specific).



My example was the modern equivalent of Luke's words to highlight the folly of your interpretation.

We are not talking about what happened in Corinth, but at Pentecost where Luke says the foreigners were "hearing them speak in his own language" (NASB). Is the natural meaning of that phrase: 'the disciples were speaking a non-human language but it was automatically translated in the foreigners ears so they heard their native language'? Or is it: 'the disciples were speaking the foreigners languages, and the foreigners heard them'? Which is it, bearing in mind we are told a couple of verses earlier the disciples spoke in other languages as the Spirit gave them utterance?



How do those verses tell us that the Spirit was working a miracle of hearing in the unregenerate crowd in Acts 2?



Which verses does tongues as a foreign language not make sense?



If you put forward a highly dubious interpretation to the OP, one which virtually all commentators reject, then why should I be forbidden from challenging it?




Seeing as I am a cessationist the answers to your questions should be obvious. Not that I can see the relevance of them.
I so seldom get to say much concerning agreement in our encounters. This post is a welcome exception :clap:, even though I still agree with Marvin on non-cessation of prayer tongues. ;) I appreciate your understanding and explanation of the "house/oinka" being the house/temple of the Lord on the day of Pentecost. This POV simply answers many unspoken 'logistical' issues, and makes so much more sense, than the traditional teaching of that day IMO.
 
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