What if we're wrong?

Wordkeeper said:

Thanks. How do we observe the law of circumcision?

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Well, we need to take into account all of what Scripture says on the matter, and judge righteously what it means.

In the following passage, the pharisees are complaining that Yahushua is breaking the sabbath, but Christ rebukes their non-sense by bringing up circumcision:

John 7:

This is an excellent Scripture for you to research, as Yahushua Christ brings up both laws you're interested in, even in the same breath.

Now, in following Christ's teaching, when it comes to reading Paul concerning circumcision, beware of seeming contradictions in his writings. He often uses words like "circumcision/uncircumcision" and "flesh/spirit" and "flesh/faith" and "flesh/promise" as metaphors for the Old and New (Renewed) Covenants:

Galatians 4:

Galatians 5:

Romans 2:

He's not talking about the foreskin growing back. He's saying that someone under the Old Covenant (circumcision), when they break a single law (in the strictest sense possible, even though Yahweh repeatedly granted mercy in the OT) they are kicked out of the Old Covenant (thus made uncircumcision.)

Paul correctly taught that the Old Covenant (which was not quite "Old" in his day) will not save anyone (except for Christ who fulfilled it perfectly.) He taught the New Covenant, wherein we are saved entirely on Yahweh and Yahushua's account, that is if we have faith in Him, and obey Him, even when we fail to keep the law that He writes on our hearts.

When studying the question of circumcision, keep in mind that Paul was fighting against people who said that we can only be saved by following the Old Covenant:

Acts of the Apostles 15:

(Notice Moses, not Abraham.)


(The question being: "Do you have to be circumcised to be saved?")


(They believed in Christ, but they were still learning about the New Covenant and everything. These things take time, you know?)



(The yoke is the Old Covenant, which every one but Yahushua Christ broke.)


(Check this out, James gives a very wise conclusion to the meeting; )

And then afterwards Paul and the others delievered a letter with James's advice and wisdom to whom it concerned. So we know that Paul agreed whole-heartedly with its contents.

And they're actually very basic Laws to get people started with. Two of them are really obvious, don't worship idols, and don't fornicate (sexual sin.) But James expects them to study all the Laws he brought up, especially the third one about not eating blood (things strangled means things not blood-letted,) which is an obscure law if you haven't read the OT.

And we know that James said this in complete faith that the Holy Spirit would guide them to study even more of the Law of Yahweh in good time, as he says elsewhere:

James 2:
(He means under the New Covenant, keep that in mind when comparing to Paul in Galatians 5 and Romans 2 where he's referring to being under the Old Covenant. Big difference!)
(Huge difference between the Old and New!)

Wow. What a way to put in perspective the difference between the Old and the New Covenants. Consider how James is applying Matthew 7:1-5, and the faith he has in this good and righteous Law!

Now again, about circumcision specifically, I think Paul speaks about the physical act very wisely in Romans 4:1-12, accentuating James who said "faith is dead without works", and I will summarize:

Essentially, don't do it thinking it will save you. It won't. Not even Abraham did it to save himself. He did it because he believed and had faith in Yahweh and obeyed Him. And Abraham's faith became alive when he did the actual work of circumcising himself and Isaac. And his faith was counted as righteousness, not the work itself, which Paul essentially explains, is dead without faith.

I encourage you to study this matter further on your own, yet not on your own but through the Holy Spirit in which we are taught all things. Just remember, if you find anything that looks like a contradiction in Scripture, remember what Christ said,

"Scripture cannot be broken." - John 10:35

and pray to our Father in heaven for understanding.

Praise Yahweh though Yahushua Christ in the Holy Spirit, amen!

Neal of Zebulun said:

Well, we need to take into account all of what Scripture says on the matter, and judge righteously what it means.


In the following passage, the pharisees are complaining that Yahushua is breaking the sabbath, but Christ rebukes their non-sense by bringing up circumcision:


John 7:

21 ..I have done one work, and ye all marvel.


22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers,) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.


23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?


24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


This is an excellent Scripture for you to research, as Yahushua Christ brings up both laws you're interested in, even in the same breath.

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Yes, so the principle Christ used to justify breaking the Sabbath law was: "When two laws clash, the law that results in the greater good supersedes the lesser law". Here doing good to a fellow man supersedes observing Sabbath. Nothing in the text to suggest circumcision carried out by Messianic Jews on male babies results in a better outcome than non-circumcision.

Now, in following Christ's teaching, when it comes to reading Paul concerning circumcision, beware of seeming contradictions in his writings. He often uses words like "circumcision/uncircumcision" and "flesh/spirit" and "flesh/faith" and "flesh/promise" as metaphors for the Old and New (Renewed) Covenants:


Galatians 4:

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.


24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants..


Galatians 5:

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.


Romans 2:

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.


He's not talking about the foreskin growing back. He's saying that someone under the Old Covenant (circumcision), when they break a single law (in the strictest sense possible, even though Yahweh repeatedly granted mercy in the OT) they are kicked out of the Old Covenant (thus made uncircumcision.)

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Not true. Point 1, the metaphors do not signify Old/New Covenant themes, but obedience or disobedience.

Point 2, they are not kicked out of the Old Covenant, but out of fellowship with God.

Paul correctly taught that the Old Covenant (which was not quite "Old" in his day) will not save anyone (except for Christ who fulfilled it perfectly.) He taught the New Covenant, wherein we are saved entirely on Yahweh and Yahushua's account, that is if we have faith in Him, and obey Him, even when we fail to keep the law that He writes on our hearts.

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Wrong. Jews had no advantage over Gentiles. Gentiles who were obedient to their conscience were saved.

Romans 2:9,10
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

When studying the question of circumcision, keep in mind that Paul was fighting against people who said that we can only be saved by following the Old Covenant:


Acts of the Apostles 15:

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.


(Notice Moses, not Abraham.)


2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.


(The question being: "Do you have to be circumcised to be saved?")


5 ..there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


(They believed in Christ, but they were still learning about the New Covenant and everything. These things take time, you know?)


6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.


10 Now therefore [Peter said] why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


(The yoke is the Old Covenant, which every one but Yahushua Christ broke.)


11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Yahushua Christ we shall be saved..


(Check this out, James gives a very wise conclusion to the meeting; )


19 [And James said,] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the nations are turned to God:


20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


And then afterwards Paul and the others delivered a letter with James's advice and wisdom to whom it concerned. So we know that Paul agreed wholeheartedly with its contents.


And they're actually very basic Laws to get people started with. Two of them are really obvious, don't worship idols, and don't fornicate (sexual sin.) But James expects them to study all the Laws he brought up, especially the third one about not eating blood (things strangled means things not bloodletting,) which is an obscure law if you haven't read the OT.


And we know that James said this in complete faith that the Holy Spirit would guide them to study even more of the Law of Yahweh in good time, as he says elsewhere:


James 2:

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:


9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


(He means under the New Covenant, keep that in mind when comparing to Paul in Galatians 5 and Romans 2 where he's referring to being under the Old Covenant. Big difference!)


11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


(Huge difference between the Old and New!)


13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


Wow. What a way to put in perspective the difference between the Old and the New Covenants. Consider how James is applying Matthew 7:1-5, and the faith he has in this good and righteous Law!

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Wrong. Again, James taught that being good saved. Being good in believing Jesus was the Messiah had to be matched with being good to our fellow men, treating poor people equally with rich people, else we would be breaking the requirements of the New Covenant too.

Now again, about circumcision specifically, I think Paul speaks about the physical act very wisely in Romans 4:1-12, accentuating James who said "faith is dead without works", and I will summarize:


Essentially, don't do it thinking it will save you. It won't. Not even Abraham did it to save himself. He did it because he believed and had faith in Yahweh and obeyed Him. And Abraham's faith became alive when he did the actual work of circumcising himself and Isaac. And his faith was counted as righteousness, not the work itself, which Paul essentially explains, is dead without faith.


I encourage you to study this matter further on your own, yet not on your own but through the Holy Spirit in which we are taught all things. Just remember, if you find anything that looks like a contradiction in Scripture, remember what Christ said,


"Scripture cannot be broken." - John 10:35


and pray to our Father in heaven for understanding.


Praise Yahweh through Yahushua Christ in the Holy Spirit, amen!

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Wrong. Abraham's faith became alive when he obeyed God in being willing to sacrifice Isaac. In fact, Paul teaches against circumcision, saying Abraham had already been marked by God as His follower, when he believed.

Romans 4:10
10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

Wordkeeper said:

Yes, so the principle Christ used to justify breaking the Sabbath law was: "When two laws clash, the law that results in the greater good supersedes the lesser law". Here doing good to a fellow man supersedes observing Sabbath. Nothing in the text to suggest circumcision carried out by Messianic Jews on male babies results in a better outcome than non-circumcision.





Not true. Point 1, the metaphors do not signify Old/New Covenant themes, but obedience or disobedience.

Point 2, they are not kicked out of the Old Covenant, but out of fellowship with God.



Wrong. Jews had no advantage over Gentiles. Gentiles who were obedient to their conscience were saved.

Romans 2:9,10
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.




Wrong. Again, James taught that being good saved. Being good in believing Jesus was the Messiah had to be matched with being good to our fellow men, treating poor people equally with rich people, else we would be breaking the requirements of the New Covenant too.




Wrong. Abraham's faith became alive when he obeyed God in being willing to sacrifice Isaac. In fact, Paul teaches against circumcision, saying Abraham had already been marked by God as His follower, when he believed.

Romans 4:10
10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

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If you really understood Christ and the Law, you wouldn't have tried to ensnare me with insincere questions like a pharisee trying to tempt Christ. But you would have gently helped me like a brother to better understand Scripture, even as I treated you.

Bye

Neal of Zebulun said:

If you really understood Christ and the Law, you wouldn't have tried to ensnare me with insincere questions like a pharisee trying to tempt Christ. But you would have gently helped me like a brother to better understand Scripture, even as I treated you.

Bye

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I'm sorry, but I had no idea how the discussion was going to go.

I was trying to be Berean , studying Scripture to see if what you said was true, along with praying for the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth.

I just saw you are quite young. I should have been a little light on the throttle, I suppose.

You are always welcome back to continue, now that I know that.

Whatever you decide, don't stop looking for the truth.

The truth is, even as believers we are going to be wrong about something regarding God's Word, or at least have an interpretation that may differ from that of another fellow believer (and I mean on secondary issues and not the things the Bible is clear on). Only when we see Jesus face to face will we "know everything there is to know" regarding God and His Word. Until then, it is a learning and growing process.

Here is what 1 Corinthians 13:12 has to say about it, plainly and clearly (now, I know we can all understand this!)

Wordkeeper said:

I'm sorry, but I had no idea how the discussion was going to go.

I was trying to be Berean , studying Scripture to see if what you said was true, along with praying for the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth.

I just saw you are quite young. I should have been a little light on the throttle, I suppose.

You are always welcome back to continue, now that I know that.

Whatever you decide, don't stop looking for the truth.

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Ah, don't worry about it. I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to point out something you didn't see about John 7, which I'll quote again for convenience.

(I actually didn't bring it up as a proof for circumcision. I brought it up because Christ teaches us how to better study the Bible in it. Also because it's a good starting place to study both the Laws you're interested in):

John 7:

Leviticus 12:

So what He's saying is that the priests do well in circumcising on the Sabbath day, so "that the law of Moses should not be broken," because there are children who's eighth day of life falls on a Sabbath day.

Likewise, He points out that they're being hypocrites in saying He's breaking the Sabbath because He heals people on it (which is another priestly duty like circumcision, but one that they're not obeying!)

Wordkeeper said:

...so the principle Christ used to justify breaking the Sabbath law...

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Christ never broke the Sabbath law (or any law of Yahweh for that matter.) The pharisees and sadducees accused Him of such, but it's not True. Here, check this out:

Matthew 12:
(So again, like we saw above, Yahushua's going to rebuke them by showing them that they don't understand the Law or Scripture generally: )
("did eat shewbread": 1 Samuel 21:1-6, "not Lawful": Leviticus 22:12-13, Exodus 29:32-33. Notice that David didn't get in trouble with Yahweh over this matter.)
(Numbers 28:9-10 shows that they're commanded to do sacrifices on the Sabbath, which entails work. Compare to Nehemiah 13:16-21.)
("mercy, and not sacrifice" is a quote from Hosea 6:6-7. Notice that He's saying that He and His disciples are guiltless concerning the pharisees claim that they are breaking Sabbath.)

I'll leave you to study this further.

Praise Yahweh, even in the Holy Spirit through Yahushua Christ! Amen.

Neal of Zebulun said:

Ah, don't worry about it. I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to point out something you didn't see about John 7, which I'll quote again for convenience.

(I actually didn't bring it up as a proof for circumcision. I brought it up because Christ teaches us how to better study the Bible in it. Also because it's a good starting place to study both the Laws you're interested in):

John 7:

21 ..I have done one work, and ye all marvel.

22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers,) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.​

Leviticus 12:

3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.​

So what He's saying is that the priests do well in circumcising on the Sabbath day, so "that the law of Moses should not be broken," because there are children who's eighth day of life falls on a Sabbath day.

Likewise, He points out that they're being hypocrites in saying He's breaking the Sabbath because He heals people on it (which is another priestly duty like circumcision, but one that they're not obeying!)



Christ never broke the Sabbath law (or any law of Yahweh for that matter.) The pharisees and sadducees accused Him of such, but it's not True. Here, check this out:

Matthew 12:

1 At that time Yahushua went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
​

(So again, like we saw above, Yahushua's going to rebuke them by showing them that they don't understand the Law or Scripture generally: )

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
​

("did eat shewbread": 1 Samuel 21:1-6, "not Lawful": Leviticus 22:12-13, Exodus 29:32-33. Notice that David didn't get in trouble with Yahweh over this matter.)

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
​

(Numbers 28:9-10 shows that they're commanded to do sacrifices on the Sabbath, which entails work. Compare to Nehemiah 13:16-21.)

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice," ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
​

("mercy, and not sacrifice" is a quote from Hosea 6:6-7. Notice that He's saying that He and His disciples are guiltless concerning the pharisees claim that they are breaking Sabbath.)

8 For the Son of Adam is Lord even of the sabbath day.​

I'll leave you to study this further.

Praise Yahweh, even in the Holy Spirit through Yahushua Christ! Amen.

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Not really. Jesus broke the Sabbath law, but kept the greater Law of loving his neighbour. So since he kept the greater Law, he was guiltless

Wordkeeper said:

Not really. Jesus broke the Sabbath law, but kept the greater Law of loving his neighbour. So since he kept the greater Law, he was guiltless

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How is keeping the Law breaking the Law? It's not breaking one law to obey another, even if there is precedence.

Neal of Zebulun said:

How is keeping the Law breaking the Law? It's not breaking one law to obey another, even if there is precedence.

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Here the priests profaned, broke the law, and they are blameless because they healed a part of a human being, circumcised the baby's foreskin:

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Wordkeeper said:

Here the priests profaned, broke the law, and they are blameless because they healed a part of a human being, circumcised the baby's foreskin:

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

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Have you not read any of the Scripture I referenced for your study? For that verse, there is this one that can be "read in the law":

Numbers 28:

("profane the sabbath" in Matthew 12:5 means working on the sabbath, as revealed in Nehemiah 13:16-21.)

They're blameless because they were obeying Yahweh, even though someone who doesn't understand the Law might think it's a contradiction.

Now why do you say that circumcision is healing? That's not what Yahweh says it is to Abraham:

Genesis 17:

Now remember, this is the Abrahamic Covenant (the New/Renewed Covenant), and not the Mosaic Covenant (the Old Covenant handed down at mount Sinai.)

Neal of Zebulun said:

Have you not read any of the Scripture I referenced for your study? For that verse, there is this one that can be "read in the law":

Numbers 28:

9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:

10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.​

("profane the sabbath" in Matthew 12:5 means working on the sabbath, as revealed in Nehemiah 13:16-21.)

They're blameless because they were obeying Yahweh, even though someone who doesn't understand the Law might think it's a contradiction.

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That's what I said. They were blameless because what they did was in obedience to God. Suppose my job is to care for the lawn. Every Saturday morning, I would take out the lawn mower. One time, I found a huge branch on it, from a tree which was damaged by the previous night's storm. I saw it up and carry it to the dumpster. It takes me all day. At the end, I am blameless from not mowing the lawn, because I had still done my job of caring for it. Both jobs, mowing and branch removing are categorised as caring, but on that day, branch removing was the greater point. Similarly, observing Sabbath and baby circumcision both are categorised as obeying the law, but on the eighth day of the baby's life, circumcision was the greater point.

Now why do you say that circumcision is healing?

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Because Jesus asked why he was found guilty of breaking the law for healing the whole person on Sabbath, when it was okay for the priest who circumcised babies on the Sabbath, and was only healing a part of a person.

John 7:23
23"If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?

Now remember, this is the Abrahamic Covenant (the New/Renewed Covenant), and not the Mosaic Covenant (the Old Covenant handed down at mount Sinai.)

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How can the Abrahamic covenant, which was instituted 430 years before Sinai, be the New Covenant?

Wordkeeper said:

That's what I said. They were blameless because what they did was in obedience to God. Suppose my job is to care for the lawn. Every Saturday morning, I would take out the lawn mower. One time, I found a huge branch on it, from a tree which was damaged by the previous night's storm. I saw it up and carry it to the dumpster. It takes me all day. At the end, I am blameless from not mowing the lawn, because I had still done my job of caring for it. Both jobs, mowing and branch removing are categorised as caring, but on that day, branch removing was the greater point. Similarly, observing Sabbath and baby circumcision both are categorised as obeying the law, but on the eighth day of the baby's life, circumcision was the greater point.

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That's a good parable.

Because Jesus asked why he was found guilty of breaking the law for healing the whole person on Sabbath, when it was okay for the priest who circumcised babies on the Sabbath, and was only healing a part of a person.

John 7:23
23"If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?

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That's an interesting observation.

Also, I would say that He was healing people "on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken."

I think Christ was pointing out that they were being hypocrites when they circumcised on the sabbath, because they were not following the law exactly to the written letter (Exodus 20:10.) And as hypocrites, they condemned Him who was actually obeying the Spirit of the Law behind the letter (Deuteronomy 22:1-4, Matthew 12:11.) Like in your parable.

Romans 7:

Romans 2:

How can the Abrahamic covenant, which was instituted 430 years before Sinai, be the New Covenant?

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Great question!

Galatians 3:



So here we see Paul is talking about the "promise," which is a metaphor for the Covenant that Yahweh made with Abraham and consequently Christ. It is not New, but Renewed, since the Old Covenant cannot disanull it.

Now Paul compares the "promise" (the Renewed Covenant) to the "law." I hope to show that this is a metaphor meaning the Mosaic Covenant and not the Law itself.

In the same chapter:

Galatians 3:

The "law" was added because of transgressions? What was transgressed?

Genesis 26:


As you see the Law of Yahweh has been around for a very long time. This is disntict from the Old Covenant wherein it is written:

Galatians 3:


Abraham never took such an oath! Nor put such a curse on his own head!

Part of the point of the Old Covenant was to show how arrogant we were to believe that we could save ourselves by our own willpower, and by our own works, which Abraham himself did not believe.

John 8:

John 14:

Thank you for your kind post! Praise be to Yahweh.

Neal of Zebulun said:

That's a good parable.

That's an interesting observation.

Also, I would say that He was healing people "on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken."

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No, the JEWS were circumcising babies on the eight day so that the Law of Moses would not be broken. Please check your understanding before posting. It’s called building with gold and precious material, not with wood and hay.

I think Christ was pointing out that they were being hypocrites when they circumcised on the sabbath, because they were not following the law exactly to the written letter (Exodus 20:10.) And as hypocrites, they condemned Him who was actually obeying the Spirit of the Law behind the letter (Deuteronomy 22:1-4, Matthew 12:11.) Like in your parable.

Romans 7:
6 ..we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 2:
27 ..shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

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Here you are right. Since they were leaders, adminstrators of the Law, they were applying the law selectively, giving themselves the correct, merciful, interpretation and using the letter of the Law to oppress the common folk.

Great question!

Galatians 3:
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made..

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

So here we see Paul is talking about the "promise," which is a metaphor for the Covenant that Yahweh made with Abraham and consequently Christ. It is not New, but Renewed, since the Old Covenant cannot disannul it.

Now Paul compares the "promise" (the Renewed Covenant) to the "law." I hope to show that this is a metaphor meaning the Mosaic Covenant and not the Law itself.

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The Abrahamic Covenant is the Original (Old) Covenant, with moral and judicial law included.

The Sinaitic (Mosaic) Covenant is the renewed Covenant, with Ceremonial Law added, and is called Covenant of Law, or simply, Law.

The New Covenant is the Covenant made by Christ, with the same requirements as the Abrahamic Covenant, but better benefits, called the Covenant of Grace, or simply Grace. At this point, it would be good if you can determine if you are under (the Covenants of) Law, or Grace.

In the same chapter:

Galatians 3:
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions..

The "law" was added because of transgressions? What was transgressed?

Genesis 26:
3 ..I will perform the oath [the promise] which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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Actually the Ceremonial Law was added because of idolatry. Ceremonial Law, (circumcision, dietary laws.etc.) separated Jews from Gentiles, making it difficult for Jews to have relationships with pagans, and in turn, easily turned to idolatry. Solomon was turned to idolatry by his pagan wives. If he had obeyed the Ceremonial Law prohibiting marriage to Gentile wives, he would have not been so easily led astray. Gentiles were steeped in idolatry, and not having a law to keep them away from idolatry led many nations to be exterminated.

Romans 9:29
29It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah."

As you see the Law of Yahweh has been around for a very long time. This is distinct from the Old Covenant wherein it is written:

Galatians 3:
10 ..Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

12 And..The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Abraham never took such an oath! Nor put such a curse on his own head!

Part of the point of the Old Covenant was to show how arrogant we were to believe that we could save ourselves by our own willpower, and by our own works, which Abraham himself did not believe.

John 8:
28 ..I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Thank you for your kind post! Praise be to Yahweh.

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Actually the terms and conditions were this:

1. Israel would keep the Law by the spirit and not by the letter.
2. God would bless Israel.
3. Israel would be a light to the Gentiles (Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from God’s mouth!).
4. She would be a light to the Gentiles, a blessing to the world, when those Gentiles are convinced by the message , to leave Egypt, serving self, and go to the Promised Land, serving others, Rest, and are converted.
5. Israel would keep the law perfectly.
6. Messiah would be raised from amongst Israel.
7. The world would enter perfect rest.

Since Israel did not keep the law by the spirit, even after God sent prophets to collect rent, see the planned results, God sent Christ, His own Son to do what Israel refused to do.

Christ kept the law as it was meant to be kept, loving God with all His heart, His brother as Himself. Christ gave his life up for mankind, was crucified, hung on a tree, became a curse.

Becoming a curse did two things. By being hung on a tree, it paid the price for all the sins of mankind. The penalty clause of the Mosaic Covenant was settled. The Covenant was completed.


By dying, the testament will of Christ was executed. Since he was the heir, whatever was promised to Abraham was received by Him. After His death, the inheritance was passed to HIS heirs, US.

Identified by loyalty, functioning faith. Believers who not only agree with Jesus’s commands, but do them.

Wordkeeper said:

No, the JEWS were circumcising babies on the eight day so that the Law of Moses would not be broken. Please check your understanding before posting. It’s called building with gold and precious material, not with wood and hay.



Here you are right. Since they were leaders, adminstrators of the Law, they were applying the law selectively, giving themselves the correct, merciful, interpretation and using the letter of the Law to oppress the common folk.



The Abrahamic Covenant is the Original (Old) Covenant, with moral and judicial law included.

The Sinaitic (Mosaic) Covenant is the renewed Covenant, with Ceremonial Law added, and is called Covenant of Law, or simply, Law.

The New Covenant is the Covenant made by Christ, with the same requirements as the Abrahamic Covenant, but better benefits, called the Covenant of Grace, or simply Grace. At this point, it would be good if you can determine if you are under (the Covenants of) Law, or Grace.



Actually the Ceremonial Law was added because of idolatry. Ceremonial Law, (circumcision, dietary laws.etc.) separated Jews from Gentiles, making it difficult of Jews to have relationships with pagans, and in turn, easily turned to idolatry. Solomon was turned to idolatry by his pagan wives. If he had obeyed the Ceremonial Law prohibiting marriage to Gentile wives, he would have not been so easily led astray. Gentiles were steeped in idolatry, and not having a law to keep them away from idolatry led many nations to be exterminated.

Romans 9:29
29It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah."



Actually the terms and conditions were this:

1. Israel would keep the Law by the spirit and not by the letter.
2. God would bless Israel.
3. Israel would be a light to the Gentiles (Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from God’s mouth!).
4. She would be a light to the Gentiles, a blessing to the world, when those Gentiles are convinced by the message , to leave Egypt, serving self, and go to the Promised Land, serving others, Rest, and are converted.
5. Israel would keep the law perfectly.
6. Messiah would be raised from amongst Israel.
7. The world would enter perfect rest.

Since Israel did not keep the law by the spirit, even after God sent prophets to collect rent, see the planned results, God sent Christ, His own Son to do what Israel refused to do.

Christ kept the law as it was meant to be kept, loving God with all His heart, His brother as Himself. Christ gave his life up for mankind, was crucified, hung on a tree, became a curse.

Becoming a curse did two things. By being hung on a tree, it paid the price for all the sins of mankind. The penalty clause of the Mosaic Covenant was settled. The Covenant was completed.


By dying, the testament will of Christ was executed. Since he was the heir, whatever was promised to Abraham was received by Him. After His death, the inheritance was passed to HIS heirs, US.

Identified by loyalty, functioning faith. Believers who not only agree with Jesus’s commands, but do them.

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Surely you don't think I'm mixing Christ up with the pharisees. The point of John 7:21-24 is simply that Christ is not breaking the Law but keeping the Law like unto how the pharisees circumcised on the sabbath day. And that they can't even see that. He then tells us we should study the Law properly in order to judge with righteous judgment.

I'm going to cut this conversation short. There are some things we agree and disagree on. But I don't want to keep going in circles over and over again.

The last thing I will say concerning the subject at this time is the following:

Luke 2:

Yes, Christ was circumcised. Remember, He kept the Law (even as under the Mosaic Covenant) perfectly.

Acts of the Apostles 16:


Yes, Paul circumcised Timothy, even right after Acts 15 when he argued against commanding it.

Neal of Zebulun said:

Surely you don't think I'm mixing Christ up with the pharisees. The point of John 7:21-24 is simply that Christ is not breaking the Law but keeping the Law like unto how the pharisees circumcised on the sabbath day. And that they can't even see that. He then tells us we should study the Law properly in order to judge with righteous judgment.

I'm going to cut this conversation short. There are some things we agree and disagree on. But I don't want to keep going in circles over and over again.

The last thing I will say concerning the subject at this time is the following:

Luke 2:

21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called YAHUSHUA, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.​

Yes, Christ was circumcised. Remember, He kept the Law (even as under the Mosaic Covenant) perfectly.

Acts of the Apostles 16:

1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:​

3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.​

Yes, Paul circumcised Timothy, even right after Acts 15 when he argued against commanding it.

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Wrong. If the Pharisees had not circumcised babies on the eight day after their birth, they would have been breaking a specific law.

Jesus had no excuse. There was no law commanding Him to heal people on the Sabbath. He could have postponed it to any of the next six days.

So, why did He do it?

Wordkeeper said:

Wrong. If the Pharisees had not circumcised babies on the eight day after their birth, they would have been breaking a specific law.

Jesus had no excuse. There was no law commanding Him to heal people on the Sabbath. He could have postponed it to any of the next six days.

So, why did He do it?

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Really, this is the last time, I don't want to keep going in circles with you!

Study:
Deuteronomy 22:4
Matthew 12:11-12
Matthew 22:34-40
Mark 12:28-34
Deuteronomy 6:4-6
Leviticus 19:18
Deuteronomy 10:12-13
Genesis 17:1-2

"Wherefore it is LAWFUL to do well on the sabbath days."

Really, if you don't agree, fine say so, and let me be in peace. But please stop with the circles, you're making me upset with your harsh words against Yahushua, who did no sin! (1 John 3:4-5)

Neal of Zebulun said:

Really, this is the last time, I don't want to keep going in circles with you!

Study:
Deuteronomy 22:4
Matthew 12:11-12
Matthew 22:34-40
Mark 12:28-34
Deuteronomy 6:4-6
Leviticus 19:18
Deuteronomy 10:12-13
Genesis 17:1-2

"Wherefore it is LAWFUL to do well on the sabbath days."

Really, if you don't agree, fine say so, and let me be in peace. But please stop with the circles, you're making me upset with your harsh words against Yahushua, who did no sin! (1 John 3:4-5)

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So what's unlawful about doing anything, even going out and collecting manna?

Why observe Sabbath at all?

Wordkeeper said:

Why observe Sabbath at all?

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Exodus 20:
("Labour" is from עבד, "to serve." "Work" as in Nehemiah 13:15-21.)
(Here Yahweh answers your question: )
Genesis 2:

Matthew 5:

John 14:

Neal of Zebulun said:

Exodus 20:

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
​

("Labour" is from עבד, "to serve." "Work" as in Nehemiah 13:15-21.)

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of Yahweh thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
​

(Here Yahweh answers your question: )

11 For in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Yahweh blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
​

Genesis 2:

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.​

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
​

Matthew 5:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

John 14:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

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But Jesus kept breaking the Sabbath, teaching that all days are the same, just as He declared all food clean.

Wordkeeper said:

But Jesus kept breaking the Sabbath, teaching that all days are the same, just as He declared all food clean.

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I'm sorry, I can't keep going in circles.

"Wherefore it is LAWFUL to do well on the sabbath days." - Matthew 12:12

"I have kept my Father's commandments" - John 15:10

Please don't drink gasoline. Bye!