Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

mark kennedy

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Sorry but the Apostolic church fathers Justin Martyr (100-165AD), Iranaeus (202AD), Hippolytus (170-235AD) saw the "Man of Sin" Revealed on earth, the AOD and great tribulation future from their 2nd and 3rd century lives, that puts your 66-70AD fulfillment in left field, right with the dispys
Yes the book of revelation is taught in parallel, not chronological as you and the dispy's believe.
I don't recall the Son of Man returning, rapturing his church and slaughting his enemies in the valley of Meggido. I don't recall two prophets with the plagues of Moses prophecing 3 1/2 years, the sea turning to blood or the commencement of the thousand year reign of Christ. If you don't believe these prophecies what possible interest could you have in the end times?
 
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seventysevens

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Christ saved our soul, not our flesh body.

.
Christ will provide a new incorruptible body at the harpazo of the Body of Christ
Your posts are funny sad as you demonstrate repetitively that all you care about is attacking the brethren while refusing to provide any valid provable reason for your constant attacks , repent or you will not be found in good favor at the BEMA Seat of Christ
Love one another as Christ has loved you , attacking those who have a view that you do not share is not love
 
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BABerean2

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You have a predetermined prejudice, as your (partial preterist) system falsely teaches rev chapters 1-19 are fulfilled.

Absolutely, not.

Please quit accusing me of something that is not true.

I told you earlier that all "partial-preterists" do not have the same viewpoint.

The end of Revelation chapter 6 and chapter 11 have not come to pass yet, because they both contain the future Second Coming of Christ.

The Second Coming is found in chapter 6, chapter 11, chapter 14, chapter 16, chapter 19, and chapter 20. None of them have happened yet.

Did you do your research on how many Bible scholars agree with you on Luke 21:24?

.
 
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Truth7t7

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By all
Except, of course, the more than two dozen people we know about who taught this concept before, and in some cases long before, 1830. This includes at least four who taught it more than a thousand years before 1830.
By all means post your sources, with citation
 
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BABerean2

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Christ will provide a new incorruptible body at the harpazo of the Body of Christ
Your posts are funny sad as you demonstrate repetitively that all you care about is attacking the brethren while refusing to provide any valid provable reason for your constant attacks , repent or you will not be found in good favor at the BEMA Seat of Christ
Love one another as Christ has loved you , attacking those who have a view that you do not share is not love

You got the first sentence correct.

At one time Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together in the early Plymouth Brethren movement. After Darby accepted the Secret Rapture doctrine of the Irvingites, Newton would not accept the new doctrine. Darby then launched a personal attack upon Newton.
That same spirit is alive and well today on this forum.


Based on your words above, there must be something wrong with me.

You even dared to doubt my salvation.
Once you go down that path, you have turned your doctrine into a cult.


.
 
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Truth7t7

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Absolutely, not.

Please quit accusing me of something that is not true.

I told you earlier that all "partial-preterists" do no have the same viewpoint.

The end of Revelation chapter 6 and chapter 11 have not come to pass yet, because they both contain the future Second Coming of Christ.

The Second Coming is found in chapter 6, chapter 11, chapter 14, chapter 16, chapter 19, and chapter 20. None of them have happened yet.

Did you do your research on how many Bible scholars agree with you on Luke 21:24?

.
I apologize, is there a 3rd form of preterism, what is this school called?
I have studied preterism and have not found your belief taught, you do believe the AOD and great tribe took place in 66-70AD?
 
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keras

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By the way anyone interested in an actual exposition let me know.
By this, do you mean a Biblically correct sequence of end time events?
If so, I have posted this before. It was virtually ignored and dismissed out of hand.
 
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BABerean2

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I apologize, is there a 3rd form of preterism, what is this school called?
I have studied preterism and have not found your belief taught, you do believe the AOD and great tribe took place in 66-70AD?

I accept your apology.

The word "preterism" simply means that a prophecy has already come to pass.

There is no doubt that Jesus was a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse, because the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Has an AOD come to pass?

It did in 167 BC when Antiochus Epiphanes attacked Jerusalem, killing thousands of Jews and stopping the temple sacrifices for about 3 years. He also set up a statue in the temple and slaughtered a pig on the altar. After his forces were defeated, the Jews rededicated the temple. That celebration is known as Hanukkah. It is found in John 10:22.

All of the Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah every year.
They knew well what happened in 167 BC.
Many modern Christians are ignorant of this event, and this is the source of much confusion of the term AOD.


The Jews of Jesus time would have "understood" Matthew 24:15, because they knew that Daniel's prophecy of the AOD had come to pass 408 years after Daniel made the prediction.
Jesus was telling them that something similar would happen in 70 AD, and it did.


The city was attacked, and the temple sacrifices were stopped in 70 AD, just as they were during 167 BC.

Mat 23:38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 


Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 




Luk 21:20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

Luk 21:21  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;





It is a historical fact that the Christians left the city of Jerusalem before the final siege of 70 AD.
Why?
They heeded the warning given above by Christ.


I do not know what my form of partial-preterism is called, because I do not want to be put in someone else's box.
I call it the Bible.


.
 
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seventysevens

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You got the first sentence correct.

At one time Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together in the early Plymouth Brethren movement. After Darby accepted the Secret Rapture doctrine of the Irvingites, Newton would not accept the new doctrine. Darby then launched a personal attack upon Newton.
That same spirit is alive and well today on this forum.


Based on your words above, there must be something wrong with me.

You even dared to doubt my salvation.
Once you go down that path, you have turned your doctrine into a cult.


.
You have shown that you do not truly have a good understanding of what scripture teaches

The rapture is no secret never has been and never will be
I have not even spoken anything related of your salvation , that is simply your misunderstanding of what scripture actually teaches.

Case in point - ONLY those who have accepted salvation of Christ and served Christ will be permitted into the BEMA Seat of Christ - it is not a salvation issue; it is where Christ determines which rewards/crowns a believer will receive based on how they lived their life and the conduct thereof after they accept salvation ,
those who have not accepted salvation are not permitted to attend - rather their judgment is at the Great White Throne judgment in which no born again believers will be there as it is only for those who have not accepted salvation

I only follow the Word of God , I do not study nor pay attention to the writings of Darby ,Newton, Calvin or any of them
The Lord Christ is who I follow not some man made doctrine as you seem to follow
 
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Quasar92

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keras

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Sure, I can do that easily , I have already asked you or anyone to give the scripture that clearly states that we will be on earth during the Great trib and the exact method that God will use to protect us through it .
But you didn't. Post the verse that says we will not be on earth during the GT.
And I HAVE posted the two verses that say God's holy people WILL be on earth then. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7. There are others that also make it clear where the Lord's faithful people are at that time and it isn't in heaven.
As for protection, the Biblical example is in Daniel 3:19-27. Then we have Isaiah 41:13 For I, the Lord your God will hold your right hand, saying: Fear not, I will help you.
And Isaiah 43:2....you will walk thru fire and not be scorched.
Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him.....you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord's anger.
The whole idea of a rapture removal to heaven is an unbiblical construct, made from assumptions and inferences, out of verses that never actually say what rapture believers surmise and is pure conjecture.
This is exactly what Paul said will happen, how people will listen to fables and dismiss the truth. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 
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BABerean2

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You have shown that you do not truly have a good understanding of what scripture teaches

The rapture is no secret never has been and never will be
I have not even spoken anything related of your salvation , that is simply your misunderstanding of what scripture actually teaches.

Case in point - ONLY those who have accepted salvation of Christ and served Christ will be permitted into the BEMA Seat of Christ - it is not a salvation issue; it is where Christ determines which rewards/crowns a believer will receive based on how they lived their life and the conduct thereof after they accept salvation ,
those who have not accepted salvation are not permitted to attend - rather their judgment is at the Great White Throne judgment in which no born again believers will be there as it is only for those who have not accepted salvation

I only follow the Word of God , I do not study nor pay attention to the writings of Darby ,Newton, Calvin or any of them
The Lord Christ is who I follow not some man made doctrine as you seem to follow

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at the time of the Revolutionary War.

Based on your words above, none of those pastors understood the Word of God.

 
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Truth7t7

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I accept your apology.

The word "preterism" simply means that a prophecy has already come to pass.

There is no doubt that Jesus was a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse, because the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Has an AOD come to pass?

It did in 167 BC when Antiochus Epiphanes attacked Jerusalem, killing thousands of Jews and stopping the temple sacrifices for about 3 years. He also set up a statue in the temple and slaughtered a pig on the altar. After his forces were defeated, the Jews rededicated the temple. That celebration is known as Hanukkah. It is found in John 10:22.

All of the Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah every year.
They knew well what happened in 167 BC.
Many modern Christians are ignorant of this event, and this is the source of much confusion of the term AOD.


The Jews of Jesus time would have "understood" Matthew 24:15, because they knew that Daniel's prophecy of the AOD had come to pass 408 years after Daniel made the prediction.
Jesus was telling them that something similar would happen in 70 AD, and it did.


The city was attacked, and the temple sacrifices were stopped in 70 AD, just as they were during 167 BC.

Mat 23:38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 


Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 




Luk 21:20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

Luk 21:21  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;





It is a historical fact that the Christians left the city of Jerusalem before the final siege of 70 AD.
Why?
They heeded the warning given above by Christ.


I do not know what my form of partial-preterism is called, because I do not want to be put in someone else's box.
I call it the Bible.


.
Jesus was not a preterist, your argument for 66-70 AD fulfillment of the AOD and Great Tribulation is the very same as the full preterist. the question was asked in Matthew 24:3?

"What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world"

The entire chapter is dedicated to the "Second Advent"

Berean you deny the "Second Advent" is seen in Matthew 24:30 "They shall see the Son of Man coming"

You use symbolic allegory to "Erase This Literal Future Event"

We dont need to look any further into the preterist system, its Just another false teaching, that denies the very basic scripture to keep itself alive.

Yes the father of your system is the Roman Catholic Jesuit ( Luis De Alcasar 1613), a corrupt foundation, in the "Counter Reformation"
 
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Quasar92

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But you didn't. Post the verse that says we will not be on earth during the GT.
And I HAVE posted the two verses that say God's holy people WILL be on earth then. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7. There are others that also make it clear where the Lord's faithful people are at that time and it isn't in heaven.
As for protection, the Biblical example is in Daniel 3:19-27. Then we have Isaiah 41:13 For I, the Lord your God will hold your right hand, saying: Fear not, I will help you.
And Isaiah 43:2....you will walk thru fire and not be scorched.
Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him.....you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord's anger.
The whole idea of a rapture removal to heaven is an unbiblical construct, made from assumptions and inferences, out of verses that never actually say what rapture believers surmise and is pure conjecture.
This is exactly what Paul said will happen, how people will listen to fables and dismiss the truth. 2 Timothy 4:3-4



The prophecy in Dan.7:25 is addressed to Daniel's people, Israel. The prophecy in Rev.13:7 pertains to the tribulation martyrs, the 144,000 Israelite evangelists will bring to the Lord. Who were those left behind, when the Church was raptured before the tribulation begins, according to Jm.4:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:18; 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-7 and Rev.4:1-2 and 19:7-8.

Neither of those two prophecies have anything at all to do with the Church.


Quasar92
 
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jgr

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We dont need to look any further into the preterist system, its Just another false teaching, that denies the very basic scripture to keep itself alive.

Yes the father of your system is the Roman Catholic Jesuit ( Luis De Alcasar 1613), a corrupt foundation, in the "Counter Reformation"

Preterism/historicism pre-dates Alcasar by well over 1000 years.

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:3,34) "But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therdore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ." And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken. (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)

160AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.--Of The Times Of Christ's Birth And Passion, And Of Jerusalem's Destruction. "Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that "both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin."(7) And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader,(8) must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen. ... "Therefore, when these times also were completed, and the Jews subdued, there afterwards ceased in that place "libations and sacrifices," which thenceforward have not been able to be in that place celebrated; for "the unction," too,(6) was "exterminated" in that place after the passion of Christ. (Against the Jews, Ch.8) (On the Significance of A.D. 70)

200AD Hippolytus of Rome (On the Significance of A.D.70) 30. Are not these things come to pass? Are not the things announced by thee fulfilled? Is not their country, Judea, desolate? Is not the holy place burned with fire? Are not their walls cast down? Are not their cities destroyed? Their land, do not strangers devour it? Do not the Romans rule the country? And indeed these impious people hated thee, and did saw thee asunder, and they crucified Christ. Thou art dead in the world, but thou livest in Christ." (Fragments of Dogmatic and Historical Works, 30)

250AD Lactantius For after a short time the Emperor Vespasian subdued the Jews, and laid waste their lands with the sword and fire, besieged and reduced them by famine, overthrew Jerusalem, led the captives in triumph, and prohibited the others who were left from ever returning to their native land. And these things were done by God on account of that crucifixion of Christ, as He before declared this to Solomon in their Scriptures, saying, "And Israel shall be for perdition and a reproach to the people, and this house shall be desolate; and every one that shall pass by shall be astonished, and shall say, Why hath God done these evils to this land, and to this house? And they shall say, Because they forsook the Lord their God, and persecuted their. King, who was dearly beloved by God, and crucified Him with great degradation, therefore hath God brought upon them these evils." For what would they not deserve who put to death their Lord, who had come for their salvation? (Lactantius: EPITOME OF THE DIVINE INSTITUTES, Ch. 46)
 
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Quasar92

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We'll leave that decision to others.


It would have to be from others trying since you are unable to!

Let me see Scriptural sources to prove any part of posts #119 and #120 are false!


Quasar92
 
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keras

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The prophecy in Dan.7:25 is addressed to Daniel's people, Israel. The prophecy in Rev.13:7 pertains to the tribulation martyrs, the 144,000 Israelite evangelists will bring to the Lord. Who were those left behind, when the Church was raptured before the tribulation begins, according to Jm.4:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:18; 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-7 and Rev.4:1-2 and 19:7-8.

Neither of those two prophecies have anything at all to do with the Church.
You are seriously and completely wrong.
1 Peter 2:9-10 makes it perfectly clear who the people of God are since Jesus came.

NOWHERE in Daniel 7:19-27 is Israel ever mentioned. It is the holy people of the Most High God, who eventually receive the Everlasting Kingdom. Daniel 7:27

NOWHERE in Revelation 13 is Israel mentioned or the 144,000. Just the 'saints' or God's people, who are told to endure until the end. Revelation 13:10

NONE of your supporting verses actually say that God will take His people to heaven.
 
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