Why Believers are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses

BobRyan · Nov 7, 2017

Theo Book said:
The purpose of the law was to increase THE AWARENESS OF SIN.

There was already sin in the world, and it was wherever MAN was found; For "All have sinned..." is not just a slogan, it is a scriptural spiritual fact.

But there are two other FACTS which must be factored in;
1) Where there was no law, sin was not IMPUTED. Nothings is said about it not being COMMITTED. It was not IMPUTED because God had not made Men aware of the fact their deeds and thoughts were unrighteous, and all unrighteousness is sin. BUT, "There is a sin not unto death."
.

1. Cain is cursed for the sin - the crime - of murder ... before any written law existed.
2. Genesis 6 - all mankind condemned to death - the flood - before any written law existed
3. It was always wrong to take God's name in vain... and still is wrong to do that.

Genesis 26:5
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Copperhead · Nov 7, 2017

Believers, at least gentile believers, were never under the Mosaic law to begin with. That kind of thought is an outcropping from a theology that says the church has somehow replaced Israel and now all the covenants made with Israel are now the possession of the church. Of course, all except the curses. Oh how convenient. Smorgasbord Christianity that says, "I'll take some of this, but don't give me none of that".Sure, there are commandments that Yeshua laid down for us, but that is not the Mosaic covenant of which the Torah is part of. He did claim that He didn't come to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill or complete it. That is all true. Remember, Yeshua is a Jew who was speaking to a primarily Jewish audience during His time on earth.

The Jerusalem council guided by the brother of Yeshua, James, pretty well summed up what "law" gentiles are under.

tamedlion · Nov 7, 2017

FreeAtLast said:
I follow the Scriptures and Yeshua's own words when He gives us NEW commandments and He tells that He is giving us His NEW Covenant as the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Luke 22:20.

When IITimothy 3:16,17 was written, what were the valid scriptures?

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 7, 2017

FreeAtLast said:
Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

We should all examine in more depth how God engineered salvation for us by using both the 'curse' of the law of Moses and the merciful forgiveness that came as a result of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

God's laws may not be comfortable but they are all for our good, to warn us and to show us the true nature of ourselves as sinners.

I think perhaps we do not so much break God's laws as break ourselves on them. And we all need to be broken so that we become humble enough to admit our lostness and thus become qualified to receive God's grace. If we don't realize we are lost sheep, we will not seriously look for the Good Shepherd. In the salvation process, the law may be indispensable in showing us our sin nature, but the gospel of grace is even more valuable by making our forgiveness possible. With regard to the first, we must repent of our sins, and with regard to the second, we must accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord—by faith.

Although theologians often pit the law of Moses against the gospel's grace (even as Paul did on occasion), it is important to recognize the intimate connection between the two. They are of one coin, just opposite sides. I am referring to the 'coin' of God's redemptive purposes, where law and grace both have their parts to play. Grace, of course, has the better part ('Heads,' we win!).

And interesting take on the connection between law and gospel:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/september/law-gospel-gods-word-in-two-words.html

Vicomte13 · Nov 7, 2017

Aaron Rich said:
Yeshua told us that NOTHING will pass from the Torah until Heaven and Earth pass away. We're still here folks - not a hard concept.

Yes, Nothing. Including the part that says that nothing can be ADDED. Read the Torah. It says specifically to whom it applies. Not the whole world - a very specific group of people, a tribe. Just them.

Now come all the way forward to Jesus. That law with its limitation never changed. It is breaking the law to ADD people to it that were not under it.

So, no, Gentiles are NOT expected to circumcise their offspring, or to do the three annual pilgrimages, or to tithe to the Temple, or the keep the Sabbath, or to burn witches, or anything of the sort. In fact, we're not PERMITTED to burn witches at all.

It's really quite clear. Attempts to put Gentiles under the Torah is breaking the law of Torah itself.

tamedlion · Nov 7, 2017

bekkilyn said:
We now have the Holy Spirit as our guide.

In my opinion you have thrown out half the Work of God in the heart of man. By cutting off the meaningful and significant work of God's Moral Law in our heart, you commit spiritual abortion.

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

The work of God is a birth of both Word and Spirit. By denying one or the other is a savage insult to God. In I Kings 3:16-28 King Solomon ordered the baby to be cut in half. In my opinion this is the result of rejecting the Law.

jaybird88 · Nov 7, 2017

Bob S said:
Show me where James wrote that He was a doer of the law. And I didn't write that he didn't write doer of the law, i just gave you another version.

he only uses the phrase (in the official canon) once. what he meant by it is up to the reader. i cant speak for James but IMO he meant ones actions were more important than ones words. its more important to do the law than to teach the law. Jesus made the same point in reference to the pharisees.

I did?

my mistake if that was not your intention.

No, Luke was a gentile.

i thought Luke was a disciple of Paul.

Matthew 10
1And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction. 2The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;a 4Simon the Zealot,b and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

claninja · Nov 7, 2017

Aaron Rich said:
It's interesting how we Christian's quote the words of Paul over the direct quotations of our own Master Yeshua. Yeshua told us that NOTHING will pass from the Torah until Heaven and Earth pass away. We're still here folks - not a hard concept.

Heaven and Earth passing away = old covenant passing away.

jaybird88 · Nov 7, 2017

Aaron Rich said:
There is so much confusion in the church. We all listen to our pastors and other lay people more than we study the ENTIRE Word of God. It's quite frustrating to me.

We seem to try and make Yeshua and God the Father and the Holy Spirit into completely separate beings. They are ONE!!! When Yeshua speaks, He's speaking on behalf of the Father. When the Spirit speaks He's speaking on behalf of the Son. They don't have different agendas or different expectations, they all have the same expectations. They are ONE! It's not hard to grasp this.

When Yeshua says "if you love me, keep my commandments," He's not telling you to follow a whole new way of life. It's the same way of life that He taught us to live from the beginning as outlined in the words of Moses. They weren't abolished!

It's interesting how we Christian's quote the words of Paul over the direct quotations of our own Master Yeshua. Yeshua told us that NOTHING will pass from the Torah until Heaven and Earth pass away. We're still here folks - not a hard concept.

When God/Yeshua refer to the Father/child relationship and the marriage relationship when referencing our relationship with Him, these aren't just cute phrases to read and move on from. He's telling you to learn from (quality and healthy) marriages and parent/child relationships. These relationships teach you more about your God than you can possibly grasp. Take a minute and wonder about it.

Yes, you have a different relationship with God's Torah once you accept his gift of Righteousness. But the relationship with His ways are still there. You cannot separate the Word from Yeshua - they are one and the same!

How about an example: If my wife asks me to clean the kitchen while she works late. I'm going to do it. I know precisely what she does to clean the kitchen because I've OBSERVED her doing so. Should I then take a shortcut and do as little as possible OR should I clean to her level of cleanliness to the BEST OF MY ABILITY. Will I ever get it to her standards? Of course not! But if I do as much as I can to the best of my ability, she will have a lot less to worry about when she gets home.

God asks us to follow His WAYS! These ways are defined in minute detail in the first 5 books of the Bible. Are we capable of following them perfectly? NO! And He doesn't ask us to. He asks us to do the best we can. Are you going to hell for falling short? No. Well...unless you do it WILLFULLY and then "there remains no sacrifice" to atone for your sins - Hebrews 10:26

Before you accept all the quotes from Paul as listed, PLEASE realize Paul is the ONLY Biblical author said to be hard to understand and HE IS MISUNDERSTOOD! In one sentence He's telling you the law is "abolished" and in the next He's saying it's holy and good. Take the Master's words first. Nothing will pass from the Torah.

You were gifted with Righteousness. He asks you to be Holy in response. Holy and Righteous are NOT synonymous. As it's said in Revelation the Bride prepares herself for her wedding day. If you understand a Jewish wedding you will understand that the Bride sets herself apart (holy) and Holy is defined in the first 5 books of the Torah.

i think Paul is a good teacher but agree with you his words are hard to understand. i thnk thats exactly why the majority of the NT is Paul and so little made up of the actual 12. when rome took over the faith they knew they could easily twist and manipulate the words of Paul. its no coincidence all the oddball doctrines come from Pauls teachings, doctrines that cant be found anywhere else.

bekkilyn · Nov 7, 2017

tamedlion said:
In my opinion you have thrown out half the Work of God in the heart of man. By cutting off the meaningful and significant work of God's Moral Law in our heart, you commit spiritual abortion.

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

The work of God is a birth of both Word and Spirit. By denying one or the other is a savage insult to God. In I Kings 3:16-28 King Solomon ordered the baby to be cut in half. In my opinion this is the result of rejecting the Law.

Taken in context, Romans 2:15 concerns a universal sense of morality, or conscience, so neither Jews who were under the law, nor Gentiles who were apart from the law are free from God's just condemnation, for all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. It serves to emphasize how Jesus is our *only* path to salvation, for without his gift of grace, we are surely guilty.

While some people incorrectly use these verses to try to prove that there is salvation apart from Jesus, this conclusion is invalid and unscriptural. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

To willfully reject Jesus's grace in order to attempt to forge our own path to righteousness through law would be actual insult.

jaybird88 · Nov 7, 2017

bekkilyn said:
To willfully reject Jesus's grace in order to attempt to forge our own path to righteousness through law would be actual insult.

so someone that goes out and tries to walk in the way Jesus showed us, they are committing an insult to Jesus?
and someone that chooses to teach others not to live by the example of Jesus, thats not an insult?

bekkilyn · Nov 7, 2017

jaybird88 said:
so someone that goes out and tries to walk in the way Jesus showed us, they are committing an insult to Jesus?
and someone that chooses to teach others not to live by the example of Jesus, thats not an insult?

IF they are doing so for the purpose of trying to achieve their own salvation, yes. That's a rejection of Jesus's death on the cross.

If they are *already saved* and are then trying to walk in the way of Jesus as a *response* to his saving grace out of love for him, then no.

We are supposed to grow in our faith and become more Christ-like, but it is through the work of the Holy Spirit that we do so, not by our own efforts. The credit is all God's and not ours.

When we put ourselves under bondage to the old covenant law, we are basically declaring that we can do it all on our own without Jesus.

Kenny'sID · Nov 7, 2017

@FreeAtLast
@bekkilyn

If we aren't under the 10 commandments, does that mean we can actually break them without concern/repentance and we are covered by grace, and will still get to heaven?

Just want to be sure I understand "we are under grace not the law". If that is not the case can someone please explain exactly what it means to be that?

jaybird88 · Nov 7, 2017

bekkilyn said:
IF they are doing so for the purpose of trying to achieve their own salvation, yes. That's a rejection of Jesus's death on the cross.

so if a person walks in the ways of Jesus, and do it for salvation, its going to lead them away from salvation?
think about that for a second, the way of Jesus is the wrong way? sorry but IMO the way of Jesus is the only way.

jaybird88 · Nov 7, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
@FreeAtLast
@bekkilyn

If we aren't under the 10 commandments, does that mean we can actually break them without concern/repentance and we are covered by grace, and will still get to heaven?

Just want to be sure I understand "we are under grace not the law". If that is not the case can someone please explain exactly what it means to be that?

wasnt one of the churches in Revelation guilty of doing exactly that and Jesus rebuked those ways?

bekkilyn · Nov 7, 2017

jaybird88 said:
so if a person walks in the ways of Jesus, and do it for salvation, its going to lead them away from salvation?
think about that for a second, the way of Jesus is the wrong way? sorry but IMO the way of Jesus is the only way.

Because if you are trying to achieve salvation on your own, regardless of how many good things you do or how many laws you obey, you are never going to achieve it. Just one tiny little mistake or imperfection is enough to condemn you. You are already filthy with sin in God's eyes no matter how many good works you do on your own.

What leads you away from salvation is by thinking you *can* do it yourself.

Jesus IS the only way. We can only be righteous through *his* righteousness.

Kenny'sID · Nov 7, 2017

jaybird88 said:
wasnt one of the churches in Revelation guilty of doing exactly that and Jesus rebuked those ways?

But that can't be, that's in the New Testament where we are under the new covenant supposedly covered by grace...Jesus must have been mistaken...right?

jaybird88 · Nov 7, 2017

bekkilyn said:
Because if you are trying to achieve salvation on your own, regardless of how many good things you do or how many laws you obey, you are never going to achieve it. Just one tiny little mistake or imperfection is enough to condemn you. You are already filthy with sin in God's eyes no matter how many good works you do on your own.

not on ones own, but on living a life based on the example sat by Jesus

What leads you away from salvation is by thinking you *can* do it yourself.

when Peter sank in the water, when the disciples failed to cast out demons, ran to Jesus for help, He didnt pat them on the back and say He will always do it so they dont have to, He said they had to have greater faith

Jesus IS the only way. We can only be righteous through *his* righteousness.

but in the end, the way of Jesus, according to what your teaching here, is the incorrect way.

Kenny'sID · Nov 7, 2017

bekkilyn said:
Because if you are trying to achieve salvation on your own,

None of us are trying to do that. That was a Pharisee thing that people insist on putting on people who are simply trying to be obedient.

"If you feel you should, and try to be obedient to God, then you are trying to be saved by obeying the law, so stop that, it's not Christian like!"

See how ridiculous that sounds? But it's exactly what's being said here

jaybird88 · Nov 7, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
But that can't be, that's in the New Testament where we are under the new covenant supposedly covered by grace...Jesus must have been mistaken...right?

haha exactly.

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