Hmm. I should add these couples I am referencing are like ranging from 18-23. So being young can make a diffrence too. I find even those not fully for kids just yet tend to change their mind to wanting them as they get older.
This quote below is perfect for what I really should have worded things! Thats essentially how I feel about it. At least some see through my terribly written thoughts what I was treying to say. I wasn't denying people should have kids. Or that it shouldn't be talked about. Or that women are bad and what not. Heres the quote:
_________________________________________________________
I think people don't know what marriage is in the first place. That's how all these other desires (like intimacy, sex, kids, curing loneliness, etc.) becomes more prevalent and distracting than what marriage is truly about at its core. Thats how this world is able to capitalize marriage, use it for political and socioeconomic gains, and recently perverse it to suit their fantasies. Instead of looking with a humble heart into what God actually spells out about marriage, and understand it, we just quote scriptures that suit our vision and idea of what marriage should be. As Christians, we've been lazy on looking into the significance and nature of marriage, and that have left room to have marriage be self-interpreted and self-defined.
Its a covenant between the other person and God. Marriage is a testament of God and the body of Christ.There is a heavy responsibility physical and spiritually, so much examples in the bible that even among the chosen ones,it have cost them greatly.Marriage alone isn't something to take lightly. Much less having children. So to have pressure that you are require or must meet expectations of kids, are just appealing to flesh. The requirement is not biblical, we have to stop legalizing the requirement of having kids when married.
That's not to say that they shouldn't, as marriage grant them rights to be intimate and have kids. But all these acts are to bring glory to God. So is being single, it also have its own testament about God, and even that decision shouldn't be taken lightly. But a woman who would think that kids are deal-breakers, have no clue about the spiritual weight of marriage and children. That is not a heart after God.
___________________________________________________________________________
Now for some other responses.....
I think you may be confusing me with someone else in the thread, or you are reading a meaning into my words that I never intended. For instance, I never said (nor do I believe) that God intends sex to be for procreation alone.
As for the need for a married couple to have children, while the commandment is there (in v28), I believe that obedience (or the lack thereof) to that command is something that needs to be worked out privately between a husband, his wife, and God.
So, as far as I can tell, I didn't "twist" anything in my earlier statements, though I would certainly apologize if I have (if you believe I have, you'll need to point it out to me however).
And while the only Scripture I offered was the commandment and statements from Genesis 1:27-28, at least I've done that much. I will ask you one last time, if you have any clear, Biblical evidence, from either the OT or the NT that shows the commandment to be fruitful and multiply has been abolished by God, please point it out, chapter and verse. Conjecture will not do.
Thanks!
--David
p.s. - you mentioned "cherry-picking" above. Please demonstrate, using Scripture, how the simple meaning of "be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth" is changed by the context of Genesis 1 that surrounds it. Thanks!
Well the evidence that your scripture is out of context is the fact Genisis was back when things started. Back when the planet was pretty much empty of any human life outside of the middle east. So it makes sense God will tell people to fill the planet by multiplying. Hence that command was for then. Not present day where the earth is full and its been thousands of years later. Just like most of the commandments back then, we don't follow them today. Such as aren't commanded to eat kosher food and what not.
I really hope you are not serious about becoming a marriage counselor unless you get A LOT more training and grace to deal with people that don't agree exactly with you. I can't imagine having this problem and my future spouse and I coming to get counsel about it from you; just taking what you said on this thread.
But if your a counselor, of course some people are going to disagree with you. And being christians people will disagree depending on their biblical views. With that said I've been helping people for a few decades now. Never had anyone complain. As for this thread, as I stated in another reply, I would be saying what I am here per say. Can't give advice unless I know the person(s) situation.
And when the men concerned go off on rants which blame women for all the evils of the world, that certainly doesn't look like it might be positioned up the healthy end.
Well since I didn't blame any women for the evils of the world then I guess I'm good.
If a person enters a marriage where they said they "maybe" they want children but afterwards start trying to frame the issue around their own actual desire of "no children" before they got married, then it is they who lied and committed fraud to their own heart in order to get married
While I agree with pretty much all of your full post, I wanted to respond to this. This would be one of my points. Obviously to lie to a future spouse about wanting children is a terrible thing to do of course. However what are those who do not want kids supposed to do? Often I see they feel like they are guilted by the whole world for not wanting kids (even if for legit reasons). For them trying to find love is like trying to find a needle on the surface of Mars.
I know before I married and was looking for years, I felt like women think less of a man who doesn't want kids or "may not" want them just yet based on various things like health, time of life...etc. And everyone knows even when you do marry someone, people are constantly asking when your having kids. Which for couples that don't want them, is annoying. And of course you can't give them a reason, even if its a good one, because they either bring up God or start to point their nose up in the air as if you are less then them.
One other thing would be is it a lie to say maybe and then eventually say no? Isn't the point of maybe that it could be yes or no later on? Unless you mean they were always going to say no and said maybe only to marry and had no intention of ever considering maybe or yes. In that case, they are pretty horrible. Those are the kinds of lies that damage a marriage for a long time.
To not have children when you can have children thinks only of your self and not the will of God.
I'd say its the oppisite. Aside from the bible never saying that anywhere, to have a child without even thinking of the world you are raising them in, if you can take care of them....etc is very selfish. To have a child just because you want one means you are thinking of yourself first and not the childs future. I say again, if I lived on the streets and was homeless, should my wife and I have kids just because we want them? Or should we consider all options first since we know it would be selfish to have a child that may pass away or get taken away because we cannot take care of them right while homeless?
Now for couples who have thoughts about all that is required in a childs future, then its fine to have kids of course not selfish. Just as its selfish to not want kids because you assume its impossible to have one in your situation (given your situation is not a big deal).
I don’t want children if I marry. They are a huge responsibility that I couldn’t handle due to my physical disabilities, and I couldn’t handle it emotionally either. There are perfectly healthy people who have a hard time raising their kids.
These are not excuses. These are things I’ve come to know about myself after 28 years on this earth.
I don’t hate kids but recognize having them isn’t right for me. I don’t see people who don’t want kids as being selfish.
Why marry? Because two people love each other and want to spend their lives together. I am not married btw.
Indeed. Some people don't care what the other person has to say as to why they don't want kids. Is having kids more important than giving someone a chance who could make your super happy? Because in the end its a lie if we tell ourselves kids will make us happy. Our marriage will. Or money. Or food. Or a home. The only thing that can bring us total happiness is Christ. Life is unfair alot of times.