Does God love everyone or just his sheep?

Oldmantook · Nov 5, 2017

Strong in Him said:
No, but I see the words "nor anything else in all creation".

Do you see the words "none of these things can separate us from God's love, only sin can do that", in Romans 8:38-39? Yes or no?

Only a few verses earlier in v.13 Paul warned that a living according to the flesh which is sin results in spiritual death. Therefore you need to read vs.3-38 in its entire context. Otherwise do you believe that habitual sin unrepented of does not separate us from the love of God.

Strong in Him said:
So God effectively said, "I will love sinners ONCE until they know me; after that, they have to earn my love"?
Where does Scripture say that God loves us if we don't sin but withdraws that love if we do?

Heb 5:9 clearly states that obedience is required for eternal life. Jesus said to his followers that if you love me, you will obey my commands. Therefore God's love is conditioned upon our obedience.

Strong in Him said:
How many times do you sin in a day? How many times are your thoughts, words, dreams, actions etc 100% pure? How many times do you KNOW you should do something - give to the poor, do the dishes, pray - but do not do it?
Are you really saying that God starts off by loving us, withdraws, and then reinstates, that love hundreds of times in one day? How exhausting for God. How uncertain for us; never having assurance, never being sure, at any given point, whether God loves us or whether we are harboring an unconfessed sin which has cut off his love.

The scriptures are quite clear so why do you need to guess? Those who practice sin are of the devil (1 Jn 3:8); those who keep his Word the love of God has been perfected and by this we know we are in Him (1 Jn 2:5); everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him (1 Jn 2:29); if our heart doesn't condemn us we have confidence before God (1 Jn 3:21). It is not a matter of how many times or quantity as you assert. Rather it is a matter of the quality of one's life - in other words what it means in general to live a sanctified life. Those believers whose lives cannot be characterized as sanctified don't have any assurance.

Strong in Him said:
Yes, if we constantly live according to the flesh, gratifying the sinful nature, and don't repent; we will.
He tells us in Galatians the actions that result from walking in the flesh. John also says this - walking in the flesh is the same as walking in darkness. If we CLAIM to walk in the light but hate our brothers or do any other deeds of darkness, we are deceiving ourselves. If we claim we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves; if we confess our sins God will forgive and cleanse us.
Nowhere does it say "as soon as you sin, God will stop loving you, and will only start again if you repent."

I never wrote nor even implied that as soon as you sin God will stop loving you. My position has always been that habitual sin that is unrepented of results in spiritual death. Please refrain from misstating my position as that is a red herring argument.

Strong in Him said:
A person is only eternally separated from God and his love if they are dead, they rejected him while alive and they are now not able to repent.

,
No, the prodigal son was dead was he not? Spiritual death occurred while he was still alive. Yes or no? If he did not repent, he would have been separated from God eternally, but the fact remains that while he was still alive he was spiritually dead - an ongoing condition that was only reversed upon his repentance.

Strong in Him said:
You seem to be talking only about people who have died. I'm talking about people who are alive, yet may sin and temporarily not feel God's love or forgiveness.
God doesn't SEND anyone to hell; he honours the choices that person has made while they were alive. If someone constantly and continually refuses to repent, and rejects God and his forgiveness; when they die, they will continue to live without him - for all eternity. And yes, I do believe that is love; to allow someone to do something that THEY have chosen. It wouldn't be love to say "you hated me while you were on earth, I'm now going to FORCE you to be with me". That wouldn't be possible anyway because the person would have died in their sins; but love does not force itself on anyone, or force them to love back.

I'm not only talking about people who died. I clearly mentioned the prodigal who Jesus said was dead who obviously didn't physically die. Jude v.12 refers to men who are still alive but "twice dead" (like the prodigal). Spiritual death occurs when one is still alive; not just after one physically dies. Your view does not fit with the scriptures.

Strong in Him said:
As I said, the father hugged and kissed his son BEFORE the son had repented - see Luke 15:20.
The father wanted his son home - and showed his love and joy when the son returned home. Nowhere are we told that the father said, "ok, now that you've repented, you may have your hug. Before you get the cloak, ring and party you have to promise not to go off again, and if I hear you criticising or grumbling, we stop the party and I'll have the ring back."

So your conclusion is that if the son did not repent, a loving and abiding relationship would still be the result? Sorry but the prodigal prior to his seeking forgiveness and restoration was spiritually dead. Spiritual death by definition means separation from God and his love.

Strong in Him said:
He was at that point. He was separated from his father and from God by his sin. That doesn't mean that either of them stopped loving him.

I don't know if you have children.
If you do, do you reject and stop loving them, the first time they do something wrong, or any time that they sin? If they chose a lifestyle that you didn't approve of, would you stop loving them, and only start again once they adopted your values and started doing what you wanted? If they borrowed your car without asking and crashed it/took your credit card without you knowing and bought something you wouldn't approve of; would you stop loving them, stop being a loving father, and disown them until they had repented? If you would; with respect, I pity your children.
God is not like that.

Employing anthropocentric examples that don't fit with Scripture is a very common mistake. Separation from God according to the scriptures means having no relationship. For a believer, spiritual death/separation occurs when he/she engages in habitual sin. Obviously there is no repentance because the believer continues the chronic sin and has separated himself from God. Upon separation there is no love from God. Only upon repentance is a loving relationship restored.

Strong in Him said:
Yes, but that doesn't mean that God would have stopped loving him, and stopped looking out for him, hoping he would come home and giving him opportunities to repent.
Paul says that love perseveres, always hopes, always trusts and never fails, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. NOT that love gives up and withdraws if the other person fails to appreciate it or show love back.

Yes, God does not give up on us and he desires that we repent. However, repentance is a choice that we make. God desire that we repent and his love are two different things; you have conflated the two.

Strong in Him said:
So you're saying that Jesus saves us from sin, but only by our works and own achievements will we get eternal life?
That's not what Jesus said. He said that whoever believes in him will have eternal life, John 4:14, John 6:40, John 10:10, John 14:6.
John said that whoever has the Son has life, John 3:16, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12. Not that whoever believes in Jesus has been saved and will get eternal life, and remain loved by God, if they work hard.[/QUOTE
You neglected to cite Heb 5:9 which cites obedience as necessary for eternal life. Also FYI, the Greek word "pisteuo" is a present tense verb accurately translated as "believing" not "believe." Thus one must continue believing in order to have eternal life.

Strong in Him said:

Yes, RESULTS IN - after we die.
And that is habitual, and unconfessed, sin. I'm talking about when we sin in our everyday lives and then confess; I have said that we are separated from God, and his forgiveness, until we repent. Even then, God doesn't withdraw his love until we have said sorry or done something to prove ourselves.

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As I showed earlier spiritual death can and does occur when one is still alive and not just after one physically dies.

Strong in Him said:

God IS love; we are told in Scripture that love perseveres and never fails.
God doesn't HAVE love, that he either shows or withholds; he IS love. I don't believe he can stop loving or he would stop being God.

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God is love but he choose to express his love conditioned upon our obedience. Our obedience is manifested by our works done unto him. That is why we are justified by works and not faith alone (Js 2:24).

Strong in Him said:

That's not what Scripture says.
God loves sinners - people who don't know him, are godless, maybe even hate him and don't show signs of wanting to repent.
There is no Scripture which says that after they are saved they have to earn eternal life and his love, and that either will be withdrawn if they don't live up to expectations.

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Obedience of the believer is God's expectation (Heb 5:9). That is what the scripture says.

Oldmantook · Nov 5, 2017

bling said:
I see degrees of "punishment" in hell and eventual annihilation, but that is another subject. Yes, God Loves those while in hell, but they are not in hell because God loves them, but they are in hell for the sack of others God loves even more, since some will use "hell" as part of their incentive to accept God's Love.
One of the benefits to disciplining a child is for the other children to see, but the child who goes to hell is not being disciplined but God is allowing him to be punished in the only place where God is not.
We have the choice of accepting fair/just/Loving disciplining by God or refuse the discipline and go to be punished in hell.

First of all, your notion of hell as "the only place where God is not" is false. Rev 14:10 states: "they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."
Souls are eternally tormented in the presence of Jesus. That does not fit with my definition of love as that would be akin to throwing salt into a wound of those already suffering. It seems sadistic to me. But if not to you then our definition of love differs.

Strong in Him · Nov 5, 2017

Oldmantook said:
I never wrote nor even implied that as soon as you sin God will stop loving you. My position has always been that habitual sin that is unrepented of results in spiritual death. Please refrain from misstating my position as that is a red herring argument.

I'm not mis-stating your position, I was trying to understand it
Your posts read; we are saved by God who gives us his love when we know no better, when we are saved, we have to DO things to keep, and show ourselves worthy of, his love and if we sin then he withdraws that love.
If that is not your position, I apologise, but that is what your posts seem to indicate.

I believe I said in one of my first replies that we will feel separated from God and his love until such time as we repent. Repentance and asking for forgiveness restores the relationship again. But I believe, and my position is, that God keeps on loving us, even during those few minutes/hours/days that we are not repentant.

I also believe that Scripture does not say that we have to earn God's love or work hard to make sure that we keep it. God loves because he IS love. He may hide his face from us temporarily, he may use something to get our attention and bring us back to him, but he doesn't stop loving, teaching us and, through his Spirit, transforming us into Jesus' image, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

IF you believe that we have to do works to earn, or keep, God's love, I feel sorry for you. And there is probably nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

Oldmantook · Nov 5, 2017

Strong in Him said:
I'm not mis-stating your position, I was trying to understand it
Your posts read; we are saved by God who gives us his love when we know no better, when we are saved, we have to DO things to keep, and show ourselves worthy of, his love and if we sin then he withdraws that love.
If that is not your position, I apologise, but that is what your posts seem to indicate.

I believe I said in one of my first replies that we will feel separated from God and his love until such time as we repent. Repentance and asking for forgiveness restores the relationship again. But I believe, and my position is, that God keeps on loving us, even during those few minutes/hours/days that we are not repentant.

I also believe that Scripture does not say that we have to earn God's love or work hard to make sure that we keep it. God loves because he IS love. He may hide his face from us temporarily, he may use something to get our attention and bring us back to him, but he doesn't stop loving, teaching us and, through his Spirit, transforming us into Jesus' image, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

IF you believe that we have to do works to earn, or keep, God's love, I feel sorry for you. And there is probably nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

You have stated my position accurately so no need for an apology. My position differs from yours in that yes repentance/forgiveness restores our relationship with God but IF or UNTIL that possibility occurs, we REMAIN SEPARATED from God and his love. That is why ongoing repentance is so important. Jesus clearly stated that the prodigal son was "dead." The prodigal was not physically dead so Jesus can only have been referring to spiritual death. Spiritual death by definition means no relationship with God at all as a spiritually dead person is separated from God and his love.
God's love is not unconditional as it requires our obedience. Obedience is never in either the OT or the NT condemned as "works." In fact we are justified by works (of obedience) and not faith alone (Js 2:24). We were created to do good works (Eph 2:10) and our obedience is the outward evidence of our inward faith which demonstrates a genuine faith. Faith without works is dead (Js 2:17).
Your view must conform to the scriptures; not the other way around.

bekkilyn · Nov 5, 2017

Oldmantook said:
Those who reject God end up in the lake of fire - the purpose of which is endless punishment and torment as the expression of God's wrath for that rejection. Yet you claim that God still loves these people as he subjects them to endless torment? That is quite a contradiction.

StrongInHim has a very good response in post #156 to this question, but my question to you was, "So what would God need to do to prove to you that he loves even the people who reject him? How could he become a more loving God and yet still be a just God?"

What would he need to do or be like in order for you to believe that God is love? What would a divine being of unconditional love be like, and why does our God fall short?

bling · Nov 6, 2017

Oldmantook said:
First of all, your notion of hell as "the only place where God is not" is false. Rev 14:10 states: "they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."
Souls are eternally tormented in the presence of Jesus. That does not fit with my definition of love as that would be akin to throwing salt into a wound of those already suffering. It seems sadistic to me. But if not to you then our definition of love differs.

We cannot discuss here annihilation and it has been discussed extensively in the Controversial Christian Theology section, so you can go there to see alternatives and support.

BUT even keeping the believe of eternal torment you have to realize: "God is not sending people to hell because of His Love for those people", God does Love them, but people go to hell as a result of their own actions and because God Loves the nonbeliever who can become a believer partly because people who refuse God's Love do go to hell.

Oldmantook · Nov 11, 2017

bekkilyn said:
StrongInHim has a very good response in post #156 to this question, but my question to you was, "So what would God need to do to prove to you that he loves even the people who reject him? How could he become a more loving God and yet still be a just God?"

What would he need to do or be like in order for you to believe that God is love? What would a divine being of unconditional love be like, and why does our God fall short?

I never wrote that God is not love as love is one of his attributes. God's love though is not unconditional as unconditonal entails that he places no conditions upon receiving his love. God loved the world so much that he sent his only begottten son to die for the sins of the world. That is/was an unconditional act of love.
However having done that, there are now conditions placed upon us for receiving his love. We need to believe (Jn 3:16) in order to enter into eternal life which is a loving relationship with God. Belief is a condition is it not? We need to continue in obedience (Heb 5:9) for eternal life. Obedience is a condition is it not? So to claim as you do that God's love is unconditional contradicts the scriptures. God is love but he places conditions on receiving his love.

Oldmantook · Nov 11, 2017

bling said:
We cannot discuss here annihilation and it has been discussed extensively in the Controversial Christian Theology section, so you can go there to see alternatives and support.

BUT even keeping the believe of eternal torment you have to realize: "God is not sending people to hell because of His Love for those people", God does Love them, but people go to hell as a result of their own actions and because God Loves the nonbeliever who can become a believer partly because people who refuse God's Love do go to hell.

Yes people go to hell as a result of their own choices. But the very fact that they do end up in hell demonstrates that God does not love them. Hell by its definition and very nature is the ultimate expression of separation from God and his love. To say that God still loves those who end up in hell is quite a contradiction. He cannot love those because they are eternally separated from him.

bling · Nov 11, 2017

Oldmantook said:
Yes people go to hell as a result of their own choices. But the very fact that they do end up in hell demonstrates that God does not love them. Hell by its definition and very nature is the ultimate expression of separation from God and his love. To say that God still loves those who end up in hell is quite a contradiction. He cannot love those because they are eternally separated from him.

Just as God can Love those prior to them accepting His Love, God can Love those that never accept His Love.

Yes! People are separated from God’s Love, but both groups (those who will eventually accept His Love and those who will never accept His Love) are still Loved by God. Those that wind up in hell will always by their own choice be separated from God’s Love, but that does not mean God quit Loving them.

You want to equate God Loving sinners (even in hell) with being separated from God’s Love, but as we agree God can still Love people and the people themselves can be separated from God due to sin.

bekkilyn · Nov 11, 2017

Oldmantook said:
I never wrote that God is not love as love is one of his attributes. God's love though is not unconditional as unconditonal entails that he places no conditions upon receiving his love. God loved the world so much that he sent his only begottten son to die for the sins of the world. That is/was an unconditional act of love.
However having done that, there are now conditions placed upon us for receiving his love. We need to believe (Jn 3:16) in order to enter into eternal life which is a loving relationship with God. Belief is a condition is it not? We need to continue in obedience (Heb 5:9) for eternal life. Obedience is a condition is it not? So to claim as you do that God's love is unconditional contradicts the scriptures. God is love but he places conditions on receiving his love.

It's not that God places conditions on his *love*. His love is still and always unconditional and everlasting. What God places conditions on is eternal life with him. We can't have eternal life with him unless we love him in return.

bekkilyn · Nov 11, 2017

Oldmantook said:
Yes people go to hell as a result of their own choices. But the very fact that they do end up in hell demonstrates that God does not love them. Hell by its definition and very nature is the ultimate expression of separation from God and his love. To say that God still loves those who end up in hell is quite a contradiction. He cannot love those because they are eternally separated from him.

I think I may be starting to see why you are having a problem with this idea of unconditional love. If you yourself love God, you are probably having a difficult time understanding why others may not love God like you do, so to you, the idea of hell and being eternally separated from God would be the most horrible thing ever.

But to someone who does not love God, the idea of *being* with God is the most horrible thing ever, a much, much worse punishment than being separated from God. In that sense, God is actually being merciful and loving by giving them their choice to remain separated from him.

His other choices would be to take away their free will, to make them his unwilling slaves, or to wipe away their free will, their personhood, and turn them into mindless robots.

The people who will be eternally separated from God aren't people who just did some bad things, and would have changed their mind about God had they not simply gotten unlucky and died one day.

The people who will be separated from God are the wicked who would never repent if they had a million years to do it. They simply do not, will not, and would never want, anything at all to do with God, ever, and being in God's presence would be a gazillion times worse than anything that could ever be done to them.

Oldmantook · Nov 11, 2017

bling said:
Just as God can Love those prior to them accepting His Love, God can Love those that never accept His Love.

Yes! People are separated from God’s Love, but both groups (those who will eventually accept His Love and those who will never accept His Love) are still Loved by God. Those that wind up in hell will always by their own choice be separated from God’s Love, but that does not mean God quit Loving them.

You want to equate God Loving sinners (even in hell) with being separated from God’s Love, but as we agree God can still Love people and the people themselves can be separated from God due to sin.

At this point we will have to agree to disagree. I believe that being in hell separates people from God's love. It isn't just mere separation but punishment. So the oxymoron is God still loves them even if they end up in hell but despite his love, he torments them forever and ever. That is quite a contradiction to me that I find nonsensical.

Oldmantook · Nov 11, 2017

bekkilyn said:
I think I may be starting to see why you are having a problem with this idea of unconditional love. If you yourself love God, you are probably having a difficult time understanding why others may not love God like you do, so to you, the idea of hell and being eternally separated from God would be the most horrible thing ever.

But to someone who does not love God, the idea of *being* with God is the most horrible thing ever, a much, much worse punishment than being separated from God. In that sense, God is actually being merciful and loving by giving them their choice to remain separated from him.

His other choices would be to take away their free will, to make them his unwilling slaves, or to wipe away their free will, their personhood, and turn them into mindless robots.

The people who will be eternally separated from God aren't people who just did some bad things, and would have changed their mind about God had they not simply gotten unlucky and died one day.

The people who will be separated from God are the wicked who would never repent if they had a million years to do it. They simply do not, will not, and would never want, anything at all to do with God, ever, and being in God's presence would be a gazillion times worse than anything that could ever be done to them.

Your reply completely ignores my comment on distinguishing between God's conditional and unconditional love. It is now incumbent upon you to somehow reconcile your view with my previous comment.

bekkilyn · Nov 11, 2017

Oldmantook said:
Your reply completely ignores my comment on distinguishing between God's conditional and unconditional love. It is now incumbent upon you to somehow reconcile your view with my previous comment.

It's not that I'm ignoring your comment, but that I don't agree that there is any such distinction when it comes to God. God's love cannot be conditional because it is not in his character to only love some and not others. If you have barricaded yourself against God's love, then his love simply isn't going to reach you unless he forces his way through your barrier against your will. The people who are eternally separated from him have barricaded themselves against God and God's love simply cannot reach them, and they would despise it even if it did.

BNR32FAN · Nov 11, 2017

Easy answer

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Oldmantook · Nov 11, 2017

bekkilyn said:
It's not that I'm ignoring your comment, but that I don't agree that there is any such distinction when it comes to God. God's love cannot be conditional because it is not in his character to only love some and not others. If you have barricaded yourself against God's love, then his love simply isn't going to reach you unless he forces his way through your barrier against your will. The people who are eternally separated from him have barricaded themselves against God and God's love simply cannot reach them, and they would despise it even if it did.

But the problem is you still have not addressed my arguement where I distinguish between God's unconditional and conditional love.
God sending his only begotten son to atone for the sins of the world is an expression of his unconditional love - yes or no?
Believing in Jesus (Jn 3:16) is a conditional requirement for entering into eternal life which by defintion is a loving relationship with God - yes or no?
Obeying God (Heb 5:9) is a conditional requirement for eternal life which by definition is a loving relationship with God - yes or no?
For you to claim that God's love is totally unconditional is undermined by these scriptures which place conditions (belief and obedience) upon us in order for God to love us and abide with us.
If you still disagree, then we have to end up agreeing to disagree.

Strong in Him · Nov 11, 2017

Oldmantook said:
I never wrote that God is not love as love is one of his attributes.

It's more than that; it's who he is.
God IS love, 1 John 4:8. Just as I am British, or he is a scientist/artist/chef.
I am British because I was born in England and I had Scottish ancestors. I can't change that.
A person may be a scientist, or whatever, because they are good at, and passionate about, that subject. They have the kind of personality that makes them "fit" a scientific career; it's who they are.
Love is who God is; he can't change it.

Oldmantook said:
God's love though is not unconditional as unconditonal entails that he places no conditions upon receiving his love.

He doesn't.
He loved us when we were sinners and far from him. We had not done anything to earn his love, nor can we ever.

Oldmantook said:
God loved the world so much that he sent his only begottten son to die for the sins of the world. That is/was an unconditional act of love.

Exactly.

Oldmantook said:
However having done that, there are now conditions placed upon us for receiving his love.

No, that would be inconsistent.
God says, "while you were sinners, far from me and had done nothing to deserve my love, I sent Jesus to die for you. But now that you are saved and know him, you have to work to earn, or keep, my love"?
How is that, in fact, loving? How does that fit with the Scripture, love never fails? Or the teaching that we should not just love those who love us but be perfect as God is perfect?

Oldmantook said:
We need to believe (Jn 3:16) in order to enter into eternal life which is a loving relationship with God.

When we accept Jesus, believe in him and confess him as Saviour, he gives us eternal life.

Oldmantook said:
Belief is a condition is it not? .

No, belief is belief.
Fire is hot, but I might not believe that, or might have some medical condition that means I can't feel pain. Fire would not stop being hot just because I believed otherwise. The heat of the fire is not conditional upon my ability to believe it.

Oldmantook said:
We need to continue in obedience (Heb 5:9) for eternal life. Obedience is a condition is it not?

Conditional upon what?
If we are asked to do something, we choose to obey, or not. Obedience might depend on whether we like the thing we are being asked to do, or whether we can be bothered. But it's not conditional - unless we are saying, "I'll obey you if there is something in it for me." In this example, we'd be saying, "I'll obey you if you love me." That's the wrong way around. God loved us first, so we can love him, and we obey him because we love him; not in order to get, or earn, his love.

Oldmantook said:
So to claim as you do that God's love is unconditional contradicts the scriptures.

No.

Oldmantook said:
God is love but he places conditions on receiving his love.

No, we place conditions on receiving God's love - e.g God won't love me if I do this/believe that. Yes he will. He may not be pleased and may need to discipline us, but he loves us.
To claim that God loves us unconditionally, the first time only and that after that we have to deserve that love, or work to keep it, is not Scriptural.

bekkilyn · Nov 11, 2017

Oldmantook said:
But the problem is you still have not addressed my arguement where I distinguish between God's unconditional and conditional love.
God sending his only begotten son to atone for the sins of the world is an expression of his unconditional love - yes or no?

Yes, we're on the same page with this one.

Believing in Jesus (Jn 3:16) is a conditional requirement for entering into eternal life which by defintion is a loving relationship with God - yes or no?

Here is where we begin to differ. Believing in Jesus, as in putting trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior, is a conditional requirement for our sins to be cleansed and to become righteous through *his* righteousness. Since God cannot live with sin, he can only live with those who have been cleansed of sin.

He can still *love* the people he can't live with, but he can't give them eternal life with him because sin is incompatible with God's pureness and holiness. That's why we need Jesus in order to be made righteous and holy enough to be capable of living with God.

Love really isn't the factor here, though it is through God's love that he became human in order to save us as we both agreed in your first statement.

Obeying God (Heb 5:9) is a conditional requirement for eternal life which by definition is a loving relationship with God - yes or no?

Obedience to God is a *result* of our love for him, not something we do to earn salvation or his love. It's a sign that the love between God and us goes both ways. God loves unconditionally whether we love him or not, but he cannot give us eternal life with him unless we are cleansed of our sin and made righteous and holy enough to live in his presence. We can only do so through Jesus. If we are obedient, it is a good sign that our relationship goes *both* ways and not just one way.

For you to claim that God's love is totally unconditional is undermined by these scriptures which place conditions (belief and obedience) upon us in order for God to love us and abide with us.
If you still disagree, then we have to end up agreeing to disagree.

The conditions aren't in order for God to love us. He loves us by default. The conditions are about whether or not we want to spend our eternity with him, which we can only do if we are made holy and righteous as God *cannot* live with sin and still be a holy and righteous God.

Even as a human parent, we would deeply love our child even if that child became strongly radioactive (and still managed to live). However, we wouldn't be able to live with the child in that state. It would literally be impossible despite our deep love for the child.

There are some things that God simply cannot do and still be God, and one of those things is to allow sin into his home.

Oldmantook · Nov 12, 2017

Strong in Him said:
It's more than that; it's who he is.
God IS love, 1 John 4:8. Just as I am British, or he is a scientist/artist/chef.
I am British because I was born in England and I had Scottish ancestors. I can't change that.
A person may be a scientist, or whatever, because they are good at, and passionate about, that subject. They have the kind of personality that makes them "fit" a scientific career; it's who they are.
Love is who God is; he can't change it.

He doesn't.
He loved us when we were sinners and far from him. We had not done anything to earn his love, nor can we ever.

Exactly.

No, that would be inconsistent.
God says, "while you were sinners, far from me and had done nothing to deserve my love, I sent Jesus to die for you. But now that you are saved and know him, you have to work to earn, or keep, my love"?
How is that, in fact, loving? How does that fit with the Scripture, love never fails? Or the teaching that we should not just love those who love us but be perfect as God is perfect?

When we accept Jesus, believe in him and confess him as Saviour, he gives us eternal life.

No, belief is belief.
Fire is hot, but I might not believe that, or might have some medical condition that means I can't feel pain. Fire would not stop being hot just because I believed otherwise. The heat of the fire is not conditional upon my ability to believe it.

Conditional upon what?
If we are asked to do something, we choose to obey, or not. Obedience might depend on whether we like the thing we are being asked to do, or whether we can be bothered. But it's not conditional - unless we are saying, "I'll obey you if there is something in it for me." In this example, we'd be saying, "I'll obey you if you love me." That's the wrong way around. God loved us first, so we can love him, and we obey him because we love him; not in order to get, or earn, his love.

No.

No, we place conditions on receiving God's love - e.g God won't love me if I do this/believe that. Yes he will. He may not be pleased and may need to discipline us, but he loves us.
To claim that God loves us unconditionally, the first time only and that after that we have to deserve that love, or work to keep it, is not Scriptural.

Looks like we agree to disagree. We don't place conditions on God's love; rather he does it. Obedience is a necessary condition to maintain a loving relationship between God and ourselves. Heb 5:9 clearly states the obeying (Greek present tense verb) is a necessary condition for eternal life which by definition is a loving/abiding relationship with God. If a believer choose to disobey God, then he does not have the assurance of eternal life and God's love. Obedience is key. If you choose to not believe that then that is certainly your prerogative.

Oldmantook · Nov 12, 2017

bekkilyn said:
Yes, we're on the same page with this one.

Here is where we begin to differ. Believing in Jesus, as in putting trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior, is a conditional requirement for our sins to be cleansed and to become righteous through *his* righteousness. Since God cannot live with sin, he can only live with those who have been cleansed of sin.

He can still *love* the people he can't live with, but he can't give them eternal life with him because sin is incompatible with God's pureness and holiness. That's why we need Jesus in order to be made righteous and holy enough to be capable of living with God.

Love really isn't the factor here, though it is through God's love that he became human in order to save us as we both agreed in your first statement.

Obedience to God is a *result* of our love for him, not something we do to earn salvation or his love. It's a sign that the love between God and us goes both ways. God loves unconditionally whether we love him or not, but he cannot give us eternal life with him unless we are cleansed of our sin and made righteous and holy enough to live in his presence. We can only do so through Jesus. If we are obedient, it is a good sign that our relationship goes *both* ways and not just one way.

The conditions aren't in order for God to love us. He loves us by default. The conditions are about whether or not we want to spend our eternity with him, which we can only do if we are made holy and righteous as God *cannot* live with sin and still be a holy and righteous God.

Even as a human parent, we would deeply love our child even if that child became strongly radioactive (and still managed to live). However, we wouldn't be able to live with the child in that state. It would literally be impossible despite our deep love for the child.

There are some things that God simply cannot do and still be God, and one of those things is to allow sin into his home.

Do you really believe God loves us unconditionally whether we love him back or not? A believer who backslides and lives in chronic unrepentant sin. Is not repentance a condition that is now required of him in order to regain God's love and forgiveness? Yes or no? If this backslidder does not repent, he dies in his sins and ends up in the lake of fire where he is subjected to God's wrath and is thus tormented forever. Yet you claim that God still loves him? That may fit with your concept of God's love but it certainly does not fit mine.

Does God love everyone or just his sheep?

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