When does the kingdom come

Oseas

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Never heard of such. Whom in the historical post-apostolic true Church can you quote that espoused it?

Yes, you are right. The true believers must be alert, as is written below, There are tares a lot being spread among the believers, as was prophesied in Rev. 12:v.15:

These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie (they all are liars); behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee (Rev.3:7-9)

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira,
as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. (Rev.2:24-28)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..
 
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jgr

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Note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can be considered to be members of the various tribes of Israel, to the point where they can even inherit the land of the tribes (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly Christian Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), are considered by God to be grafted into the various tribes of Israel when they're grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

And so Christian Gentiles will inherit the land of Israel during the future Millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past, or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).
You've neglected to answer the question.

Whom in the historical post-apostolic true Church can you quote that espoused your following claims:

"And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7)."
 
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Oseas

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Are you thinking of the idea that there are 10 "lost" tribes today? And that Jews can only be from David's tribe of Judah?

What I stated by the Word of God is that the vision of Daniel 7:3-6 given unto him in the time of the King Belshazzar, is a confirmation of what was revealed in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar (Dan.2 - the Great Statue). Really, both visions reveal the four universal kingdoms, beginning by the kingdom of Babylon. The detail is that after the appearance and construction of the fourth reign, no one other universal kingdom was built upon the Earth. So, rest yet the appearance of the fifth and last universal kingdom, in part of iron and in part of clay, showed in the feet of and 10 toes of the Great Statue, so, in this time of Apocalypse, we are living in an extension of the fourth kingdom still, because the fifth universal kingdom, the religious universal kingdom of Antichrist, it is to be fulfilled in our days yet, in the days that follow, through the universal Catholicism together with the esoteric Judaism that is spread among the Jews around the world, thus in part of iron and in part of clay, in the literal fulfilment of the prophecy.

I stated also by the Word of God that
Firstly, it is important to understand that the cited 10 horns are represented in the 10 toes of clay of the feet of the Great Statue, cited distinctly in Dan.2: v.41, because the number 10 is significant in the prophecy, evidently. The verse 42 shows this distinction, saying: 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Seems that you do not know that
the prophecy is speaking of TWO kind of peoples (iron and clay) Having these prophetical details, we must remember that these remnants that still exist of the old Roman Empire in our days (the iron of the feet and of the 10 toes of the GS), they come developing and maintaining themselves until our days, through the Universal power of the Roman Catholic Church throughout history since the advent of Christianism, but the RCC is not yet an Empire, will be with the help of the ruthless false messiah in very soon future.


The European nations you have cited, they make part of iron and are represented by iron. The clay of the 10 toes is a specific nation, as prophesied Jeremiah and Isaiah: Je. 18:v.6&Is.64:v.8 among others: Please, check it. The revelation which the Lord did give to me in these prophetical portions of Scripture, the source of all Truth, it is that the clay of the ten toes/10 horns are the 10 tribes of Israel (1Kings 12:v.19), which rebelled against the house of David unto this day. BTW, JESUS is of the house of David, and of the tribe of Judah, this fact explains the why the Jews rejected JESUS.

The ephemeral and satanic Antichrist's Empire, which will rise up and manifest in this time of Apocalypse, in accord the written Holy Scriptures, it will be ruled by TWO satanic World Beasts, both described in Rev. 13:1-18.

Rev.13:1-10 reveals who is the first Beast to rule the satanic and religious Empire of Antichrist, the verse 5, yes, verse 5, reveals that this Beast will rule the Empire by a period of 42 months or 1.260 days, or 3 and half years. The believers MUST be attentive to the fulfillment of this prophecy in the days that are approaching, as soon as the false Messiah of the esoteric Jews be manifested. They are waiting the manifestation of their ruthless messiah (whose number of his name is 666), not JESUS. JESUS prophesied about this preference: (John 5:43) as they chose and preferred the homicidal Barabbas.


Rev. 13:11-18 reveals who is the second Beast which will rule the satanic Antichrist's Empire, that is the ruthless false messiah. He comes from one of the ten tribes of Israel, as prophesied the Patriarch Jacob: Gen.49:v.17: " Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward." Seeing this devilish picture in his vision, Jacob cry out to the Lord: v.18 I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.

The esoteric or spiritualist Jews are waiting their messiah, not JESUS. The prophecy says: For this cause God will send them strong delusion (very soon they will receive their messiah, by the way a ruthless false messiah, he has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon), that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth (JESUS), but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2The.2:11-12)

He who has ears, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.


 
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Oseas

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When does the kingdom come? It's here already, in part. It will finally culminate in the eternal utopian new heavens and new earth. There is no yet-future 1,000 year millennium.

Based in the Word of God, the source of the truth, on God's six days of creation and one day of rest (a total of seven days) plus the Scriptures that teach that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years (Psalm 90:4; II Pet. 3:8; Heb. 4:4) so MANKIND will go through six God days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years).

In accord biblical Chronology, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chap.5, as follow::

Adam lived …............................130 yrs and begat Seth

Seth lived .............................105 yrs and begat Enosh;
Enosh lived ............................. 90 yrs and begat Kenan;
Kenan lived...............................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
Mahalalel lived ..........................65 yrs and begat Jared;
Jared lived .............................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Enoch lived ..............................65 yrs and begat Methuselah;
Methuselah lived........................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
Lamech lived ............................182 yrs and begat Noah;
From Noah´s birth until the Flood.....600 yrs.

Total of yrs from Adam to the Flood=1,656 yrs.

I work with the Word of God. Notice that the table above is proved by the Word of God, it is not of human theories or human speculations. Let us study the times until our days not by human theories and speculations, but by the Word of God. So, see the table below:

PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES --------------------------- DURATION

I - From Adam until the Flood------------------- ----------1,656 years (as was showed above)
II - From the Flood until Abraham-------------------------- 427 years
III - From Abraham until Exodus--------------------------- 430 years
IV - From Exodus until king Saul ------------------- --------396 years
V - From Saul until the fall of Jerusalem -------------- ----508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem until Jesus ---------- ------587 years

Thus, from Adam until the 1st coming of Jesus -------- 4,004 years
From Jesus until our days (Christian Calendar)-------- 2,017 years
Total from Adam until our days -------------------------- 6,021 years


Jesus came in the fourth Day of God's week or around 4.000 years after the creation of the first Adam. From JESUS (fourth Day) until our days, have passed more two Days of the week of God, totalizing 6 complete Days or six milleniums, or around 6.000 years, more precisely 6.017 years, conform Christian Calendar pointing 2.017 years. We have entered in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day of God's week, that is the Great Sabbath, the Millennium of Christ, that is the Millennium of Truth, the Day of the Lord, and the Day of Vengeance, and the Day of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ. The world of Devil is already Judged, and Condemned, and now, in this seventh and last millennium, will be punished, there will be punishment, only and only punishment, in this last Day, the Day of the Lord JESUS, King of the kings and LORD of the lords.


And God Father already entered in His rest, as He had planned in the beginning of His works, but He is not sleeping, of course, and JESUS assume the government of the Universe. JESUS is now sat on His Tribunal, the Judgment Seat of Christ, to Judge all nations, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not His gospel, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev.11:15) 17 We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established in the top of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills; and people will flow unto it. And many nations will come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

The kingdom of God comes not with observation, neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. (Rev.12:7-11) And there was war in heaven (heaven(s) is not the physical space of the Universe-(sky), but celestial place(s) in Christ or Dispensations as is written in Eph.1:v.3) : Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And they (Michael and his angels) overcame him (overcome Satan and his angels) by the blood of the Lamb (by the blood of JESUS), and by the word of their testimony; and they, loved not their lives unto the death.
 
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Oseas said in post 281:

These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie (they all are liars); behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee (Rev. 3:7-9)

Regarding "the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not" (Revelation 3:9), this and Revelation 2:9b were referring to non-Christian genetic Jews living in the literal, 1st century AD cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia (Revelation 2:8, Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). Non-Christian genetic Jews aren't truly Jews in the sense that even though they're physically circumcised, they're spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually aren't Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). But all Christians, whether genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Revelation 3:9b could have been fulfilled in the 1st century AD in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7), in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant Jesus Christ had made it so that congregation could preach the Gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly-non-Christian genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).

*******

Oseas said in post 284:

The ephemeral and satanic Antichrist's Empire, which will rise up and manifest in this time of Apocalypse, in accord the written Holy Scriptures, it will be ruled by TWO satanic World Beasts, both described in Rev. 13:1-18.

Note that neither beast will support Catholicism or Judaism as they are currently known.

Also, Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the Gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' second coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' second coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned (via reincarnation). And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it's important to know when and how the real Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), that is, Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus Christ confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus suffered and died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the 1st book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which almost everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And the Antichrist could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved King David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified Himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, and the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

So the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus, sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).
 
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jgr said in post 283:

Whom in the historical post-apostolic true Church can you quote that espoused your following claims:

"And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, . . .

Regarding Romans 11:17,24, note that just as all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus Christ (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish Christians remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile Christians have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile Christian becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile Christians, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

jgr said in post 283:

Whom in the historical post-apostolic true Church can you quote that espoused your following claims:

"And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19 . . .

Regarding Ephesians 2:12,19, it is addressing Christians who are genetic Gentiles rather than genetic Jews (Romans 11:1).

Ephesians 2:12,19 means Christian Gentiles aren't strangers to Israel but are fellowcitizens in Israel along with Christian Jews. Read also what Ephesians 3:6 says.

jgr said in post 283:

Whom in the historical post-apostolic true Church can you quote that espoused your following claims:

"And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) . . .

Regarding Galatians 3:29, all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b) but also the Gentiles in the Church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24) as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).
 
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jgr

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Regarding Romans 11:17,24, note that just as all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus Christ (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish Christians remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile Christians have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile Christian becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile Christians, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).



Regarding Ephesians 2:12,19, it is addressing Christians who are genetic Gentiles rather than genetic Jews (Romans 11:1).

Ephesians 2:12,19 means Christian Gentiles aren't strangers to Israel but are fellowcitizens in Israel along with Christian Jews. Read also what Ephesians 3:6 says.



Regarding Galatians 3:29, all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b) but also the Gentiles in the Church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24) as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).
Still no answer to the question.

Your homebrewed doctrine fails for lack of evidence of historical true Church orthodoxy.
 
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Oseas

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Regarding "the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not" (Revelation 3:9), this and Revelation 2:9b were referring to non-Christian genetic Jews living in the literal, 1st century AD cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia (Revelation 2:8, Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). Non-Christian genetic Jews aren't truly Jews in the sense that even though they're physically circumcised, they're spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually aren't Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). But all Christians, whether genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Revelation 3:9b could have been fulfilled in the 1st century AD in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7), in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant Jesus Christ had made it so that congregation could preach the Gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly-non-Christian genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).

*******



Note that neither beast will support Catholicism or Judaism as they are currently known.

Also, Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the Gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' second coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' second coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned (via reincarnation). And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it's important to know when and how the real Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), that is, Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus Christ confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus suffered and died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the 1st book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which almost everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And the Antichrist could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved King David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified Himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, and the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

So the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus, sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).

You have followed cunningly devised fables. What you have wrote, the Apostle Peter calls that as cunningly devised fables, invented by the spirit of lie, yes, invented by a deceiver spirit. In truth you have been a sower of tares in this site, now you are using a different nickname, instead of keras, possessed by the same deceiver spirit.
 
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jgr said in post #288:

Your homebrewed doctrine fails for lack of evidence of historical true Church orthodoxy.

Note that your argument would match that of a Jesuit against a Protestant.

Instead, all Christians should base their doctrine on sola scriptura (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
 
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Oseas said in post #289:

. . . now you are using a different nickname, instead of keras . . .

Note that keras and I disagree on some things, as is shown by past threads on this subforum where we went at it at length.

Oseas said in post #289:

. . . possessed by the same deceiver spirit.

Note that simply calling someone a deceiver carries no weight (Matthew 27:63).

What matters is whether what we are teaching lines up with God's own Word the Holy Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4).
 
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>>>jgr replied Bible2 and said in post #288:
Your homebrewed doctrine fails for lack of evidence of historical true Church orthodoxy.<<<
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
>>>Bible 2 replied jgr and said in post #290:
Note that your argument would match that of a Jesuit against a Protestant. Instead, all Christians should base their doctrine on sola scriptura (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
<<<

But the astute spirit of lie uses Scripture to disguise his seeding of tares among the true believers, as you do and as keras too.
2Timothy 4:3-4 & 1Timothy 4:1-2 explain:


2Ti. 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they will turn away their ears from the truth,
and will be turned unto fables.

1Ti.4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times (even now, in the time of Apocalypse) some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Woe of them: They all will be at the left hand of the Lord JESUS. All must know that, all them who will be placed at the left hand of the Lord, He, even He, has already CURSED them by written. There will be no forgiveness, by no manner of means.
 
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jgr said in post #292:

I'd like to see who they are and what they say.

Jesuits say that Protestants are mistaken because their teachings contradict many of the traditions of the RCC. That is, Jesuits hold that extra-Biblical church teachings are equal in authority to the Bible. This is also the basic teaching of the RCC in general.

But Protestants are supposed to hold to sola scriptura. That is, only the Bible itself is authoritative regarding doctrine and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17). For the church is fallible (e.g. Matthew 16:23, Galatians 2:11-14, Luke 22:34).
 
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Jesuits say that Protestants are mistaken because their teachings contradict many of the traditions of the RCC. That is, Jesuits hold that extra-Biblical church teachings are equal in authority to the Bible. This is also the basic teaching of the RCC in general.

But Protestants are supposed to hold to sola scriptura. That is, only the Bible itself is authoritative regarding doctrine and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17). For the church is fallible (e.g. Matthew 16:23, Galatians 2:11-14, Luke 22:34).
Still no answer.

Quotes please.

Whom in the historical post-apostolic true Church can you quote that espoused your following claims:

"And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7)."
 
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jgr said in post #295:

Whom in the historical post-apostolic true Church can you quote that espoused your following claims:

"And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7)."

Note that no post-apostolic espousal is required. For what has been presented has been based on what God Himself teaches through His apostles, in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, for a Protestant to require post-apostolic espousal would make the Reformers turn over in their graves. For they lived and died for sola scriptura, precisely denying the idea that Christians must follow any man-made teachings of fallible people in the Church.

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the Church (James 5:14), people with faith in Jesus Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (that is, Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Jesus to return (James 5:7).
 
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jgr

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Note that no post-apostolic espousal is required. For what has been presented has been based on what God Himself teaches through His apostles, in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16).

That's what cults claim; self-appointed authority with no subjection to external examination and validation by those whom God has called to defend “the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints” (Jude 3 NASB) .

Also, for a Protestant to require post-apostolic espousal would make the Reformers turn over in their graves. For they lived and died for sola scriptura, precisely denying the idea that Christians must follow any man-made teachings of fallible people in the Church.

Sola scriptura does not in any way eliminate or invalidate the role and ministry of teaching within the Church (Romans 12:7, 1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11, Colossians 1:28, 1 Timothy 4:11). And where there is teaching, there is learning (1 Corinthians 14:31, Philippians 4:9, Colossians 1:7, 2 Timothy 3:14).

You don't think at least some of the Reformers compared notes with other Reformers to confirm at least some degree of consistency and unanimity across the Reformation messages they were proclaiming? Sola scriptura did not prohibit that.

Here's my sola scriptura for Romans 11:16-24:

Definitions are requisite. There are several references to the root. Christ is identified as the root in Romans 15:12, Revelation 5:5 and Revelation 22:16.

Since the trunk is an extension of the root, Christ is also the trunk. This conflates with the illustration of the vine and the branches in John 15, wherein the vine, that is Christ, encompasses both the root and the trunk.

The branches, representing individual believers, both Jew and Gentile, collectively the Church, are thus grafted into Christ. Jews were the original natural “graftees”, but those who refused to believe were broken off (v. 20-21). Believing Gentiles were grafted in, but will also be cut off if they lapse into unbelief (v. 22). And Jews who return to belief can be regrafted (v. 23), as of course can Gentiles.

“Their own olive tree” in v. 24 may refer to the ethnic and cultural distinctions between the Jew and Gentile of Paul's day. But because the root and trunk of every olive tree into which both Jew and Gentile are grafted is Christ, there is no distinction spiritually; and the collection of all graftees forms the Church of believers in Him.


My sola scriptura obviously differs from yours. So where can we turn to attempt to resolve the difference?

We turn to those of greater wisdom and discernment whom God has called as teachers to assist us, recognizing that sola scriptura in no way excludes their edifying ministries from our Christian growth and experience.

That is of course no guarantee that differences will be resolved. But it is an assurance that no individual or institution can any longer proclaim themself as the final binding scriptural authority.
 
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jgr said in post #298:

That's what cults claim; self-appointed authority with no subjection to external examination and validation by those whom God has called to defend “the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints” (Jude 3 NASB) .

Note that no cult is being promulgated here, only what the Bible itself teaches, which is what the Reformers themselves espoused in their doctrine of sola scriptura.

jgr said in post #298:

Sola scriptura does not in any way eliminate or invalidate the role and ministry of teaching within the Church (Romans 12:7, 1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11, Colossians 1:28, 1 Timothy 4:11). And where there is teaching, there is learning (1 Corinthians 14:31, Philippians 4:9, Colossians 1:7, 2 Timothy 3:14).

Note that nothing which I have presented contradicts any of the Bible verses which you have referenced.

jgr said in post #298:

You don't think at least some of the Reformers compared notes with other Reformers to confirm at least some degree of consistency and unanimity across the Reformation messages they were proclaiming? Sola scriptura did not prohibit that.

What it prohibited was any Reformed teaching which contradicted the Bible, such as Calvin's idea that he could murder Servetus, or Luther's idea that he could be anti-Semitic.

jgr said in post #298:

Christ is identified as the root in Romans 15:12, Revelation 5:5 and Revelation 22:16.

That's right, but the good olive tree in Romans 11 is still Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24). For Gentiles are from a different, wild olive tree (Romans 11:17,24).
 
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Note that nothing I have presented contradicts the Bible.

In your devilish message #286 you wrote:
>>>
Regarding "the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not" (Revelation 3:9), this and Revelation 2:9b were referring to non-Christian genetic Jews living in the literal, 1st century AD cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia (Revelation 2:8, Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). Non-Christian genetic Jews aren't truly Jews in the sense that even though they're physically circumcised, they're spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually aren't Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). But all Christians, whether genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13). Revelation 3:9b could have been fulfilled in the 1st century AD in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7), in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant Jesus Christ had made it so that congregation could preach the Gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly-non-Christian genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).<<<

What you wrote above is not what was revealed by the angel of the Lord, you are not in the same Spirit of him who is holy and true, you are possessed by the spirit of lie, a deceiver spirit, whose spirit will be cast into the abyss in fulfilment what is written in Rev.20:1-3. What you have written above has nothing to do with the things said by him that is holy, he that is true, he that has the key of David, he that open, and no man shut; and shut, and no man open. Rev. 3:7

What you have written is of the Devil, it is tares, you are a sower of tares. guided by an evil spirit, the spirit of lie, whose spirit will be cast into the bottomless pit that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. Go down into the abyss, deceiver spírit. you know not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
 
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