Christians, historicity of Torah?

cloudyday2

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Let my introduce myself. I have been a Christian for over 70 years and I am one such. I am far from alone in my understanding because I think the majority of Christians think the same. It is really only in some churches in the USA that a literal inerrant understanding of scripture has gained any real traction.
So any thoughts on the question in the OP? Hopefully what I wrote makes sense.
 
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FreeAtLast

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They were not slaves as some want you to believe.

The "some" are those who read the Bible :) If you go further, you will see that the children of Israel, as a nation, were in slavery.

Exodus 1
11 So the Egyptians put slave drivers over the people of Israel. The slave drivers treated them badly and made them work hard. The Israelites built the cities of Pithom and Rameses so Pharaoh could store things there. 12 But the worse the slave drivers treated the Israelites, the more Israelites there were. So the Egyptians became afraid of them. 13 They made them work hard. They didn’t show them any pity. 14 The people suffered because of their hard labor. The slave drivers forced them to work with bricks and mud. And they made them do all kinds of work in the fields. The Egyptians didn’t show them any pity at all. They made them work very hard.

While they were slaves, this happened:
22 Then Pharaoh gave an order to all his people. He said, “You must throw every Hebrew baby boy into the Nile River. But let every Hebrew baby girl live.”

Exodus 2
23 After a long time, the king of Egypt died. The people of Israel groaned because they were slaves. They also cried out to God. Their cry for help went up to him. 24 God heard their groans. He remembered his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 25 So God looked on the Israelites with concern for them.

Shall I go on, or is this enough to get you to investigate what the Bible says?
 
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hedrick

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There are several different approaches to the Bible among Christians. Conservative Protestants think it's God's revelation in a fairly direct sense. Other Protestants think it's a human book written by people who had experienced God. Catholics allow both views, but their current scholars tend to towards the more liberal view. However for them, the Bible is the Church's book, and is to be understood in accordance with Christian tradition.

Judaism has the same split in views, but also tends to interpret Scripture in accordance with tradition.

Here's data on current American beliefs: Record Few Americans Believe Bible Is Literal Word of God. It's always hard to know how people interpret questions, but it appears that most US Christians don't see the Bible as literally God's word. If you took the same poll among people who post in ChristianityForums I think you'd find much more support for the literal view. You've seen that above.

The OT is essential to Christianity, because Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Even if you don't think the OT is always accurate historically, God chose the Jewish people as a vehicle to bring the world to him. Jesus' mission makes no sense without that background. The prophets tell us that it was always God's plan to use Israel to bring everyone in the world to him. So while Jesus was Jewish and operated within Judaism, it's completely appropriate that he would be accepted by non-Jews.

Paul wrestled with the question of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. His discussion is the only early Christian approach we know in much detail. He valued Judaism and the Jewish Law, because it was how people first came to understand God. If you look at the Law in the context of the time, many of the weird provisions can be seen as advances. However he understood the Law's role as temporary, as being a tutor, preparing people for Jesus.

Even if the Bible gives us Jewish traditions about their origin, which aren't always accurate, all of this still holds. All the New Testament references to Moses show us is that the authors of the Gospels believed there was an actual Moses. Even if there wasn't a historical Exodus (which is what current archaeology suggests), there is often some reality behind legends. So Moses could well have been real, and had a real role in the creation of Israel's understanding of its role as being called by God.
 
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cloudyday2

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If you look at the Law in the context of the time, many of the weird provisions can be seen as advances.
My impression is that the Law of Moses is not very different from the Code of Hammurabi. This is consistent with the idea of the Law of Moses was not inspired by God IMO.

However he understood the Law's role as temporary, as being a tutor, preparing people for Jesus.
That sounds good at first, but think about some of the weird stuff in the Torah such as the red heifer whose ashes were made into a seemingly magic potion. I watched a sermon by T.D. Jakes where he tried to draw parallels between Jesus and the red heifer. I honestly wonder if Jakes made a bet with some friends such as "go ahead give me the most preposterous premise and I will turn it into a sermon and my parishioners will believe every word I say."

Thanks for the reply. Those are some good solutions, but I'm not sure they work for me.
 
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hedrick

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Yeah, there's plenty of odd things in the OT, many of which I would certainly never want to see Christians use as a model. But what I look at is the direction in which the prophets pushed the religion.

If you're interested in the red heifer I can tell you what one commentary said.

First, the ceremony is for when someone touches a dead body. Under the Law, life is sacred, and so is blood and other things associated with life or death. That's part and parcel of the prohibition of murder (which is older than the Law -- the OT makes it part of a covenant with Noah that applies to all mankind), and in later understandings, positive commitments to help other people. Because blood and bodies are sacred, touch with them make you "unclean." That is, you are contaminated with holiness, if that makes sense. So the ceremony is in the end a result of the value placed on life.

Sacrifice was a normal way of dealing with the holy. One can only guess why a red heifer in particular, but one theory is that it was red to connect it with blood.

Anyway, this isn't something I'd ever suggest for Christians, but it has a certain kind of sense in that culture.
 
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Yeah seriously,

What makes the Exodus so unbelievable but not the Mayflower story?

Here is the article by Friedman that I mentioned earlier. He believes the Exodus happened on a much smaller scale for only the tribe of Levi. ( https://reformjudaism.org/exodus-not-fiction )

There is also the Hyksos ( Hyksos - Wikipedia ). I know most modern scholars are dismissive about the Hyksos hypothesis, but I believe their skepticism is based solely on the later date assumed for Exodus based on a single Bible verse. That doesn't seem like a good enough reason to entirely discard the Hyksos as a possibility.

There is also the account of Osarseph that Josephus equated with the Exodus ( Osarseph - Wikipedia )
 
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Dirk1540

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Many Christians do not literally believe in the Garden of Eden or Noah's Flood, but the Torah also includes the Exodus from Egypt and the Jewish Laws. For me, the story of Exodus is not only unbelievable - it is also a tedious story expressing a narrow-minded tribal perspective. And the Jewish Laws are equally uninspiring. However, Moses and the Laws are absolutely central to Judaism, and Jesus was Jewish. Jesus speaks of Moses, and Jesus even talks with Moses in the Transfiguration.

How do you Christians fit the Torah into your system?
I tend to completely bail on historical arguments for anything pre-Abraham. Not as a cop out but as humble reality. As one of our Teaching Company professors said when he was covering the Egyptian start to Western Civilization "The further that we go back the more that history resembles a fishing net, what we do know is represented by the netting, but what we don't know is represented by the holes, and the further you go back the thinner the net gets." Now, it's one thing to historically go after a large group of people, but to attempt to find historical proof for even Abraham and his sons...forget it!! Pre-flood?? Forget it even more!! This is why, even though it might sound like a cop out, it's actually not historical madness for Christians to use historical Jesus research as their hinge point to turn around and take a lot of the OT on faith.

The nature of ancient documents that are connected to a long running tradition of a people group is that you WILL get redaction, just like you naturally will see old books in their 4th addition, that have occasionally been 'Revised' to bring them up to speed on current terminology. However, if you find ancient documents that were last redacted in say 400 BC, but claim to reach back to 2000 BC, what you would find is a hodgepodge of redaction sprinkled with breadcrumb clues of a much earlier time frame. Although I admit to the limited power of historical research when reaching back so far, I do find it pretty cool when you uncover these breadcrumb clues.

There are cases of external archaeological data that when compared to Biblical texts shows nitty gritty details that reveal the document's original age. Several things situate Genesis/Exodus narratives in the Middle Bronze Age (2000-1550 BC). An example of these nitty gritty details establishing time frame is covenants and social customs. At Shekhna, an ancient city in Syria, an archive of 18th century BC Akkadian tablets were discovered. Many tablets contain a specific type of covenant protocol unique to the early 2nd millennium BC. These give us time specific ways in which ancient people conducted contracts. When they did a deal they had an oath that typically had 5 elements...witnesses (a diety), oath, stipulations, ceremony, and curse. In Genesis there are 3 contracts done (Genesis 21: 23-31, 26: 29-31, and 31: 51-54) and these contracts contain all the same elements, and roughly in the same order as contracts being performed in the surrounding areas. These contract practices evolved over time, by the Last Bronze Age most contracts have 7 elements.

We have records of the price of slaves derived from law codes throughout the ANE (ancient near east), we have information about the going rates of slaves within various time frames. Slave prices increased over time, ranging from 10 to 120 shekels over a period of 2,000 years. The Biblical accounts of slave prices are accurately recorded as far as the time periods that the Bible purports to be describing. Joseph is in line with Hammurabi's Code, Moses is in line with Nuzi/Ugarit parallel time frame prices, and Menahem is in line with Assyrian parallel time frame prices.

Personal names - There's a style of names called an Amorite Imperfective name, they are names that begin with and i/y prefix, names like Yaka, Ishmael, and Israel...they are particularly popular in the early 2nd millennium BC. By the Late Bronze Age to Iron Age they are hardly used at all. We can see in Biblical texts how name popularity tends to change based on name popularity evidence that we now see in our ANE archaeology data. This would be an awfully strange coincidence if the Biblical minimalists are correct that the whole OT was composed only a few centuries prior to Christ.

Place names - names like Ur, Haran, Hebron, Sodom, Gomorrah, Laish, Salem (Jerusalem), and Shechem. These names are attested in non-Biblical sources in which they situate them geographically in a way that is consistent with the way the Bible situates them geographically. So you have a convergence of verification that existed during this time in regards to these places.

Of course, my thinking is that the reality of redaction can present situations where such breadcrumb hints to the ancient references in these documents ALSO got scratched out sometimes by the redaction...So I don't really think such situations would be evidence in reverse (that every instance of the absence of such breadcrumbs would be evidence that it was really originally written much later). Richard Hess is a really good OT scholar who gets into these things in detail. Honestly, some of Richard Hess' books (he's a Christian) would scare a lot of Christians to death because he equally deals with historical Biblical problems.

As for myself I don't see how ancient documents would possibly not have problems because they are ancient. As just an example one famous alleged anachronism about the Patriarchal Period is that there's all these descriptions of people using camels for transport. And scholars bashed these stories because camels were not supposed to have been used till about 1000 BC. Since that charge has been made evidence has come to light that camels were used as early as 2200 BC. This is simply the type of thing that's going to be a problem when we are dealing with that scarce 'Fishing Net' of historical data analogy of how much gaps there are in the historical data when we reach back that far.
 
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Robban

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Here is the article by Friedman that I mentioned earlier. He believes the Exodus happened on a much smaller scale for only the tribe of Levi. ( https://reformjudaism.org/exodus-not-fiction )

There is also the Hyksos ( Hyksos - Wikipedia ). I know most modern scholars are dismissive about the Hyksos hypothesis, but I believe their skepticism is based solely on the later date assumed for Exodus based on a single Bible verse. That doesn't seem like a good enough reason to entirely discard the Hyksos as a possibility.

There is also the account of Osarseph that Josephus equated with the Exodus ( Osarseph - Wikipedia )

If there was no exodus then all the rest falls apart. both before and after.

Not all left Egypt, not all slaves want to be free.

Without these events we would have nothing to learn from,

today we are to take a piece of Torah and apply it to today,

By remembering His mighty acts,

Egypt also means world, and also known as the land of Ham, (Noah story)
and boudaries and limitations,

we are to leave Egypt daily,

That it happened is what gives us confidence.

A little story,
When they came to the sea of reeds with the Egyptians behind and water in front,
they split up into four groups,
one group wanted to return,
another wanted to stay and fight,
another wanted to have a round table conference with the Egyptians,
the fourth group wanted to have a prayer meetng,

Moses told them they were all wrong,
He told them the order was to "Go" to advance,

And as soon as the first man entered the water the sea opened so they went across as on dry land.

From this we can draw lessons, today,

Some may say,
"Making a living is almost like splitting the sea"

And sometimes it is,
but remembering His wonders gives us encouragement to "Go"

Picking to pieces this that or the other accomplishes nothing.
 
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Dirk1540

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There are several different approaches to the Bible among Christians. Conservative Protestants think it's God's revelation in a fairly direct sense. Other Protestants think it's a human book written by people who had experienced God. Catholics allow both views, but their current scholars tend to towards the more liberal view. However for them, the Bible is the Church's book, and is to be understood in accordance with Christian tradition.

Judaism has the same split in views, but also tends to interpret Scripture in accordance with tradition.

Here's data on current American beliefs: Record Few Americans Believe Bible Is Literal Word of God. It's always hard to know how people interpret questions, but it appears that most US Christians don't see the Bible as literally God's word. If you took the same poll among people who post in ChristianityForums I think you'd find much more support for the literal view. You've seen that above.

The OT is essential to Christianity, because Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Even if you don't think the OT is always accurate historically, God chose the Jewish people as a vehicle to bring the world to him. Jesus' mission makes no sense without that background. The prophets tell us that it was always God's plan to use Israel to bring everyone in the world to him. So while Jesus was Jewish and operated within Judaism, it's completely appropriate that he would be accepted by non-Jews.

Paul wrestled with the question of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. His discussion is the only early Christian approach we know in much detail. He valued Judaism and the Jewish Law, because it was how people first came to understand God. If you look at the Law in the context of the time, many of the weird provisions can be seen as advances. However he understood the Law's role as temporary, as being a tutor, preparing people for Jesus.

Even if the Bible gives us Jewish traditions about their origin, which aren't always accurate, all of this still holds. All the New Testament references to Moses show us is that the authors of the Gospels believed there was an actual Moses. Even if there wasn't a historical Exodus (which is what current archaeology suggests), there is often some reality behind legends. So Moses could well have been real, and had a real role in the creation of Israel's understanding of its role as being called by God.
Awesome post! But I will address this small part,
Even if there wasn't a historical Exodus (which is what current archaeology suggests),
There were 3 different Egyptian people designations to keep our eye on. There were Asiatics, which were the Egyptian way of referring to anyone to the east in the general area of Canaan. That's going to include a lot of people groups, it's going to include the Israelites, it's going to include a larger group of Semites (Canaanites), and it's gonna include some other tribes like Hurrians who are Asiatic but not Semites, nor Israelites. So think of it as 3 big concentric circles...the biggest circle is the largest group of peoples, the 2nd Semite circle is smaller, and then the smallest circle is the Israelites. This is where it gets a little tricky because when Egyptians are referring to the Asiatics they could be referring to a particular group of Asiatics or they could be referring to the larger group, so we don't always know. So any mention of 'Asiatics' in Egypt could be referring to the Israelites but it could also not be.

There is non-Biblical evidence that the Egyptians were involved in large public building projects involving the forced labor of Asiatic slaves. There is a place called Tel el-Dab'a that is located right in Goshen (where the descendants from Joseph settled), there in Tel el-Dab'a we do find evidence of 'At least' Asiatic material culture. We have a style of architecture from northern Canaan that's found commonly throughout the Nile Delta there. We have a large Asiatic statue of a person that was discovered there. We have tombs containing Asiatic weapons. We have Middle Bronze Age Canaanite pottery (Semitic). We have ceremonial artifacts that are Asiatic in form. In addition we have textual evidence of Asiatics, a wall painting of Asiatic traders coming into Egypt with their animals.

We have Egyptian textual evidence of Asiatics...on a monument called 'Speos Artemidos' we have an inscription that "There were Asiatics living in the Nile Delta in Avaris, along with 'Vagrants' (Egyptian term for sheep herders), and they were not worshiping the Egyptian sun-god Ra." So we have a reference to Asiatics who were conducting their lives in ways that were distinctive of the Israelites (Genesis 46:34). Joseph basically argued that "We are sheep herders and you are not so let us have this land."

18th Dynasty documents such as Papyri Leningrad 1116A, Leiden 348 and Harris record the building of public projects by slaves - some Asiatic and Semitic, compare to Exodus 1:11 and we get a convergence from the two accounts of the practices of how the Egyptians enslaved people from the east.

In 1966 there began an excavation in Goshen, they found a 4 room pillar house plan at Avaris (Tel el-Dab'a). This style of architecture is the most common style of architecture throughout the entire Iron Age in Israel. The 4 room house found here is the most common type of architecture from the time of King David all the way up until the Babylonian captivity. It's not an Egyptian style, it's not a Canaanite style, it's specifically Israelite style (Area F, stratum D2, dating to the time of Joseph). All of the remains in this village are Asiatic in nature, there is nothing Egyptian. Archaeologists immediately recognized that the remains of the horse shoe type dwelling was identical to structures built in Israel centuries later.

The 1740 BC Brooklyn Papyrus 35.1446 lists 77 slave names, it's a household record. Over 30 names are north west Semitic, and many are distinctively Hebrew...Shiprah, Menahem, feminine forms of the Biblical name Issachar and Asher, and Aqob which may be a variation on the name Jacob, or it may be the name Jacob itself.

There is a 14th century BC document called the Amarna letter, and it refers to raids and to the conquest of several Canaanite cities by a people group called the 'Habiru.' Who were the Habiru? The Habiru is a term that was used for nomadic people's throughout the Near East. Some scholars think that the name Hebrew is derivative of Habiru...however other scholars dispute that they think it's a more generic term for nomadic, marauding, conquering peoples. But what is interesting is that the description of this particular nomadic people, in what they do, in the cities they conquer, matches in many ways the activity of the Israelites as recorded in the book of Joshua and Judges. The basic picture we get from Canaanite records and their communication with the Egyptians is about 'This conquering people group entering our land.'

The Merenptah Stela records an attack on areas of Canaan by Pharaoh Merenptah in 1209 BC. It mentions Israel as part of the settled population of Canaan. It mentions 3 cities, Ashkelon (which is a city known throughout the Biblical times), Gezer, and Yano'am. But it also mentions the people of Israel. In this stela Israel is also mentioned as one of the 9 main enemies of the Egyptians. This is significant for dating the arrival of the Israelites into Canaan. For starters, we know they arrived. But secondly, by 1209 BC, if they are listed as one of the main enemies of Egypt then they did not just recently arrive carrying their tents, they've been established for awhile. This fits nicely with the basic chronology that the Bible lays out for Exodus and then the conquest.

We have archaeological inscription mentioning 'Ta shasu Yahweh' = Land of the nomads of Yahweh. This actually occurs several times on Egyptian monuments, but the earliest inscription is from right around 1400 BC at an Egyptian Temple. It describes them in the general region of Moab and Edom, which is to the east and the south of the Jordan River. This is right about where they'd be wandering near the end of their period of wandering. So the big question would be this, why would the oldest mention of the 'god' of the Hebrews be found on Egyptian monuments? Some archaeologists would argue that the reasoning is that the Hebrews left a mark!! The Egyptians clearly knew who these people were, and were aware of their religious practices & and their whereabouts. This is definitely an interesting one, we have something coming from the mouth of the Egyptians, it's coming from 1400 BC, it mentions their god, and it has specificity about their movements.

One other thing to keep in mind is that Goshen is a fairly poor region to expect much to survive for archaeologists because there was so much mud brick construction, as opposed to an area predominantly consisting of stone structures.
 
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I am not sure if the following were “laws” to follow or merely suggestions. Nevertheless, the following are the only verses where God gave some sort of direction for them to follow; well except for the Ten Commandments.

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

The Lord was speaking to a select group of people & it was their duty to follow His instructions (laws) and should they follow his instructions peace would envelope the world.

In today’s world; I ask, are they following His Laws? :)-
 
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Robban

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The human race comprises a single soul. only the bodies are separate

In my view :)-

We all have a soul, it is made up of ingredients,
one ingredient is spirit/ruach or personality,

The Chassidic masters speak of two distinct souls that vitalize the human being.
 
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Robban

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I am not sure if the following were “laws” to follow or merely suggestions. Nevertheless, the following are the only verses where God gave some sort of direction for them to follow; well except for the Ten Commandments.

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

The Lord was speaking to a select group of people & it was their duty to follow His instructions (laws) and should they follow his instructions peace would envelope the world.

In today’s world; I ask, are they following His Laws? :)-

There are 613 connections,

The greatest of these is giving charity.

Because it is the only one that involves the whole of ones being,

Interlectualy, physicaly, it takes much energy.

Holding down a job, there is much involved,

getting up in time, getting there, doing a days work, getting back,
all to get bread on the table,

Then give some of the earnings to a complete stranger.

Each one should themselves know how well or not they observe this connection.
 
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FireDragon76

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My faith doesn't rest on the historicity of all parts of the Bible. It just rests on the belief that Jesus is the Savior of the world.

If you find Torah clunky and uninspiring, you haven't really explored Judaism much. Judaism's influence on the western world's sense of humanism is incalculable.
 
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