Dispensationalist Only Revelation letters are not for Christian churches

HenryM

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Would you mind if I ask what your definition of a Christian is, Henry? My definition is anybody who accepts Jesus as their savior.

I think it's everybody who believes in Paul's gospel - that Jesus, the Son of God, died for our sins and rose on the third day.

But that's our current dispensation. I don't think that end times, as revealed in Revelation, is same dispensation as this one. I think that's new dispensation.

By the way, many people are saved by Jesus' blood although they didn't know it. All saved people from Old Testament era are also saved by Jesus' blood, but they are not Christians, as I see it. I think Christians are a group of saved people of current dispensation.
 
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EnergonWaffles

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Ah I would consider those in the old testament to be Christians as well, since like you said, they were looking forward towards salvation, while we are looking backward.

I'm not debating you btw...just very helpful to clarify so everybody is on the same page. :)
 
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mmksparbud

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If they were Jews, not Christians, they were not in churches, they would be in synagogues. Only Christians had churches. Pagans had temples, Jews had synagogues---still do. Anyone meeting in a church, is a Christian.
 
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HenryM

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If they were Jews, not Christians, they were not in churches, they would be in synagogues. Only Christians had churches. Pagans had temples, Jews had synagogues---still do. Anyone meeting in a church, is a Christian.

Relatively recently I came to find out that when Greeks translated Old Testament to Koine Greek, the same language New Testament is written in, they used the same word to describe Jewish assemblies in Old Testament as they used for Christian churches in New Testament. About 70 times Greek word for church is used to describe Jewish assembly in Old Testament. And, there are also couple of mentions of word church in New Testament that are not about Christian church, before Revelation.

So when word church is mentioned in Revelation it doesn't make it necessarily to be a Christian church just because word church is used.
 
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HenryM

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Ah I would consider those in the old testament to be Christians as well, since like you said, they were looking forward towards salvation, while we are looking backward.

I'm not debating you btw...just very helpful to clarify so everybody is on the same page. :)

Yes, I understand. I just think it means something, in dispensational sense, that the word Christian is first used in the Bible regarding Paul preaching in Antioch in book of Acts (Acts 11:26).
 
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mmksparbud

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OK---lets get more technically correct then.

People write quite lengthy articles on this word.

Strong's Greek: 1577. ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly ...
biblehub.com/greek/1577.htm
[The English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, ...


The modern Greek word for church is-ekklesia (εκκλησία). The modern Hebrew word for church is k'nessiah (כנסיה). In ancient Greek, Ekklesia meant an assembly, sometimes translated as congregation. In ancient Greek culture it was not used to refer to a a religious assembly but a political one.

Definition
  1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
    1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
    2. the assembly of the Israelites
    3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
    4. in a Christian sense
      1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
      2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
      3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
      4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
      5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
      6. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/ekklesia.
      7. html
      8. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
    5. ekklesia, centuries before the translation of the OT and the time of the NT, was clearly characterized as a
      political phenomenon, repeated according to certain rules and within a certain framework. It was the
      assembly of full citizens, functionally rooted in the constitution of the democracy, an assembly in which
      fundamental political and judicial decisions were taken… Paul always understands ekklesia as the living,
      assembled congregation. This is expressed particularly in 1 Cor. 15 (vv. 4f., 12, 19, 23, 28). It is only in the
      meeting and living together of the members that love, described in 1 Cor. 13 as the supreme gift, can be
      made real, just as it is only in this way that the other God-given gifts can be recognized and acknowledged.
    6. THE HISTORY OF THE WORD CHURCH, ekkesia.
    7. The Greek term (ekklesia) ekklesia which is commonly translated as "church", basically means 'called out' and was commonly used to indicate an "assembly" of citizens of a Greek city and is so used in (Acts 19:32 NAS). The citizens who were quite conscious of their privileged status over against slaves and non citizens were called to the assembly by a herald and dealt . . . with matters of common concern. When the early Messianic Community understood themselves as constituting an "assembly" or "congregation", they no doubt perceived of themselves as called out by God in Messiah Yeshua for a special purpose and that their status was a privileged one in Messiah Yeshua (Eph. 2:19 NAS).

      It should be noted that, (ekklesia) ekklesia was used more than one hundred times in the Greek translation of the Tanach in common use in the time of Yeshua. The Hebrew term from which (ekklesia) ekklesia is derived is (qahal) lhq which simply meant 'assembly' and could be used in a variety of ways, referring for example to an assembling of prophets (1 Sam. 19:20 NAS), soldiers (Num. 22:4 NAS), or the people of God (Deut. 9:10 NAS). The use of the term in the Tanach in referring to the people of God is important for our understanding of the use of the term 'assembly or congregation' (ekklesia) ekklesia in the New Covenant Scriptures.

      The first Messianic Believers were Jews who in many cases, used the Greek translation of the Tanach. For them to use a self-designation that was common in the Tanach for the people of God reveals their understanding of the continuity that links the Old and New Covenant Scriptures. The early Messianic Community understood themselves as the people of the God who had revealed Himself in the Tanach (Heb. 1:1-2 NAS), as the true children of Israel (Rom. 2:28-29 NAS) with Abraham as their father (Rom. 4:1-25 NAS), and as the people of the New Covenant prophesied in the Tanach (Heb. 8:1-13 NAS).

      As a consequence of this broad background of meaning in the Greek and in the Tanach , the term 'congregation or assembly' is used in the New Covenant Scriptures of a local congregation of called-out Messianic Believers, such as the 'Messianic Congregation" (ekklesia) ekklesia of God which is at Corinth' (1 Cor. 1:2 JNT), and also of the entire people of God, such as in the affirmation that Messiah is 'the head over everything for the Messianic Congregation, which is His body' (Eph. 1:22-23)" JNT).

      We have seen in the overview above the Greek word (ekklesia) ekklesia is consistently used in the Greek translation of the Tanach and is understood in all other Greek language literature as meaning "assembly" or "congregation". The word used in the Scriptures should read "assembly" or "congregation" from the Hebrew ( qahal) lhq or (edah) hd[ or the Greek (ekklesia) ekklesia , but not "church."
      Origin of the Term Church
 
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mmksparbud

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synagogues (plural noun)
  1. the building where a Jewish assembly or congregation meets for religious worship and instruction.
    • a Jewish assembly or congregation.

    • The Hebrew term is beit k'nesset (literally, House of Assembly), although you will rarely hear this term used in conversation in English.

      The Orthodox and Chasidim typically use the word "shul," which is Yiddish. The word is derived from a German word meaning "school," and emphasizes the synagogue's role as a place of study.

      Conservative Jews usually use the word "synagogue," which is actually a Greek translation of Beit K'nesset and means "place of assembly" (it's related to the word "synod").

      Reform Jews use the word "temple," because they consider every one of their meeting places to be equivalent to, or a replacement for, The Temple in Jerusalem.

      The use of the word "temple" to describe modern houses of prayer offends some traditional Jews, because it trivializes the importance of The Temple. The word "shul," on the other hand, is unfamiliar to many modern Jews. When in doubt, the word "synagogue" is the best bet, because everyone knows what it means,
    • Judaism 101: Synagogues, Shuls and Temples

 
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mmksparbud

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A Jew, writing in Greek about non Christians assembling together, would have used the term synagein or a form if it--not the Greek term of ekklesia or any form of it.

The word synagogue is derived from a Greek word 'synagein', meaning 'to gather together'. Originally it referred to the assembling of people, and then to the place where they gathered,

What does the word 'synagogue' mean and how did synagogues come into being? - GCSE Religious Studies (Philosophy & Ethics) - Marked by Teachers.com

bottom line--this was written to believers of Jesus Christ, the Son of God who died for our sins and were therefore---Christians.
 
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HenryM

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A Jew, writing in Greek about non Christians assembling together, would have used the term synagein or a form if it--not the Greek term of ekklesia or any form of it.

I don't think it's that simple. Apostle Paul, in New Testament, referenced Jewish assembly in Moses time as church/ekklesia. In Acts there's a word church/ekklesia used for pagan assembly that's hostile to Paul.

But anyway, letters in Revelation give a lot to be studied about them, not just the word church.
 
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mmksparbud

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I don't think it's that simple. Apostle Paul, in New Testament, referenced Jewish assembly in Moses time as church/ekklesia. In Acts there's a word church/ekklesia used for pagan assembly that's hostile to Paul.

But anyway, letters in Revelation give a lot to be studied about them, not just the word church.

Yes----assemblies is what the word ekklesia translates to. And a Jewish assembly at the time of Moses was a congregation gathered in the sanctuary.
There is a lot to be learned, and they are letters sent to Christian gatherings in those cities that had been faithful and good but Jesus had things to say to each of those assemblies that they were lacking. All but one--the Philadelphians.
 
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readywriter

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How many of you believe that seven letters in Revelation are not directed to Christian churches?

I don't mean that there is no wisdom and meaning to be taken from those letters by Christians, but that those letters are primarily not directed to Christians.

Hello @HenryM'

I believe this.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
 
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PesachPup

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How many of you believe that seven letters in Revelation are not directed to Christian churches?

I don't mean that there is no wisdom and meaning to be taken from those letters by Christians, but that those letters are primarily not directed to Christians.

Do you feel like the "general location" of those 7 "churches" is found in Isa 11:11?

*[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from [1]Assyria, and from [2] Egypt, and from [3]Pathros, and from [4]Cush, and from [5]Elam, and from [6]Shinar, and from [7]Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

If yes, have you tried to make connections between them? [And the 7 churches? ]
Blessings
The PuP
 
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2tim_215

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The language was different because all the apostles had different styles of writing and different proficiency in the Greek language (after all their native language was Hebrew). With the exception of Paul (who was fluent in Greek) and Luke (who was Greek and educated) the rest of them weren't the best Greek writers hence the differences. John was an uneducated fisherman so I don't think you can make the language argument. And the fact that John was in the latter days of his life, gives even more credibility to this book.

Ephesus, Philppi, Sardis, etc. were all historical Christian churches and as pointed out, a converted Jew (as there were many) are Christians. According to Paul, there is no such thing as a Jew, Gentile, bond or free, there's only one in Christ Jesus, thus there is no distinction between a saved Jew or a saved Gentile according to God.
 
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Copperhead

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I have generally seen those letters to actual Churches or Assemblies during the time they were written by John. In the order they are in, I also somewhat see the history of the corporate Church from then thru today. Any other order and the case would be harder to make for that.
 
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larry5867

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How many of you believe that seven letters in Revelation are not directed to Christian churches?

Hi Brother HenryM, and blessings in Christ Jesus.

I’ve got to agree with many that I’ve never heard this approach to the letterers sent to the pastors (angels) of the churches in Asia. Rev 1:11.

To me, the chapters of Revelation Chapters Two & Three are especially dispensational, and directed to our spiritual walk in Christ, and showing the viewpoint of Rev 1:19 where John is told to write “of things which are.

Judgment must begin at the house of God (1 Pet 4:17), and I believe these letters to show that judgment throughout this present age. There are five parts of the Church told to repent, or suffer the consequences as it were, while two: the Smyrna and Philadelphia are commended, and said to have crowns. Smyrna in Rev 2:10 is told to remain faithful unto death, and Philadelphia in Rev 3:10 is told to faithfully keep the word of God, they are said to also have a crown, and in following this instruction, they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world (First 1260 days of the tribulation.)

The next dispensation begins with the Church shown in heaven beginning with john describing the third viewpoint in Rev 1:19 of the things which shall be hereafter”.

It is here in Rev 4:1 we see the beginning of the Lord’s Day, John is caught up in spirit to heaven at the start of the millennium to be shown things which must be hereafter, and a part of the Church with Jesus.

My thoughts.
 
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David Kent

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Of course it refers to the church, the whole book of revelation is for the church
  • Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
 
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