Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

Silly Uncle Wayne

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I have decided from some months ago, that the "THING" is not Christ at His second coming but as I wrote just in the post your above quote replies to, but it is what is emitted from Him. It is written that at Jesus return there will be a great world wide knowing.

The Bible was emitted from Jesus and at the second coming truth will emit from Jesus and is the perfect thing Paul writes of in 1 Corinthians 13.

The Bible and the Truth are things.

Rather than deciding something because you want it to be so, you might be better consulting God. Basically your reasoning regarding what Paul writes of has no relationship to what he writes of.


The problem isn’t that truth will emit from Jesus, but that this is the perfect thing that Paul is writing about… because he is not. Neither truth nor scriptures are referenced in the Chapter nor in what comes immediately before or after.


If one were to search the passage for something perfect, the only logical candidate is ‘love’ (agape, not the emotion which is rarely referenced in scripture).
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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NOPE. That just is not the case.

I gave you a detailed history of the Bible reasons of When and Why the sign gifts ended.

The Scriptures actually do say that the sign gifts WILL CEASE and the Bible history I gave you proved it.
On the contrary the bible history you provided was no more than wishful thinking.

The bible tells us that spiritual gifts will cease when perfection comes. The context is Paul's passage on love. Any other interpretation is imposing your own views on the text.
 
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1stcenturylady

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If you want to speak in tongues......DO IT. But you can not claim that it is approved by God.

Yes, we can! It is called OBEDIENCE. You are preaching the opposite as all mockers do. "if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant" You don't have a scripture to stand on, even to the point of UNBELIEF, but we certainly do.

Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Cessationists own Swiss Cheese Bibles that have holes made with their own hands.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Major1

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Be warned, if you want unbiased translation of words, don't go somewhere that wears its bias on its sleeve. Try Strong's or Vine's or take a look at interlinear Bible.

That will work just as well.

I did not list them as I thought everyone goes there first.
 
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Major1

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On the contrary the bible history you provided was no more than wishful thinking.

The bible tells us that spiritual gifts will cease when perfection comes. The context is Paul's passage on love. Any other interpretation is imposing your own views on the text.

I am sorry but I can not agree with your opinion. As for CONTEXT however you are in my opinion very correct.

Context.............

The subject at hand for context begins in 1 Corinthians 12:1 and ends with 1 Corinthians 14:40.

Chapter 12 deals with the diversity of spiritual gifts.

In 12:31 we are introduced to the quality of LOVE in contrast with SPIRITUAL GIFTS.

In V.31 Paul told the Corinthians, "But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way."

Then in chapter 13:1-3 he points out that "love" is more important than the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecies, and knowledge.

In vv. 9-10 Paul contrasts that which is "in part" and that which is "perfect." He says now we know "in part" and we prophesy "in part," and then tells us that which is ''in part" shall be done away with and replaced by "that which is perfect."

And then, (in v.12) he says, "I shall FULLY know as I am FULLY known."

Consider the two Greek words that are translated as "in part" and "perfect."

"In part" is translated from the Greek [ek merous], meaning PARTIALLY. Paul knew God's will PARTIALLY through spiritual gifts. Later Paul would know FULLY, or completely when all the parts are put together.

Now look at 1 Corinthians 12:27 where Paul speaks of "members in particular." (ek merous); i.e. each person who had a gift was only a part of the whole. (Consider the context.)

Then there is that pesky Greek word, "Perfect" is translated from the Greek [teleion], meaning, according to Thayer's LEXICON, "brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness."

In the Arndt-Gingrich LEXICON the word is described as, "having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect."

It is important to note that this word is an ADJECTIVE and not a NOUN. Some have taught, in error, that "that which is perfect" refers to Jesus. But even in our English language we never refer to a person as a ''that."

In Greek or English "that" is neuter gender. That means GRAMATIVALLY that Christ is not referred to as "that" but as "who." The key to understanding this passage properly is in the proper understanding of the word "perfect."

"That which is perfect (COMPLETE)" is the COMPLETION of that which is in part. We KNOW "in part" and we PROPHESY "in part" refers to the proclamation of the gospel by divine will as the apostles were teaching by the use of spiritual gifts. When Jesus promised to guide the apostles into "all truth " (John 6:13) it was not done all at once. During the first century these inspired men were each revealing the parts of the whole gospel as the Lord was revealing it to them through the Holy Spirit (via spiritual gifts). It was not until almost the close of the first century that the whole had been revealed.

Paul gives us an illustration. When a child grows up (matures) and becomes full grown, he puts away that which is childish. "I spoke as a child" - immature thoughts and ideas; "understood as a child" - lacking in knowledge; "I thought as a child" - reasoning based upon limited knowledge and understanding. He compared it to trying to see one's face in a dark and smoky glass compared to the reality of face to face.

We have the PERFECT revelation from God in the Scriptures. Desiring "spiritual gifts" is to desire to go back to looking through the "dark glass."

Spiritual gifts ceased because their need ceased. Some died instantly. The spiritual gifts of prophecies and knowledge was "done away" [katargeo]. When God finished His gospel to us there was no more need for those spiritual gifts. These spiritual gifts stopped because God stopped revealing. His message was complete. Some spiritual gifts lingered for awhile and died of their own accord. The spiritual gift of tongues would "cease" [pauomai], or stop by itself. One would assume that when the last person died who had the spiritual gift of tongues, which was actually the apostles, that spiritual gift died also.
 
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Major1

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Rather than deciding something because you want it to be so, you might be better consulting God. Basically your reasoning regarding what Paul writes of has no relationship to what he writes of.


The problem isn’t that truth will emit from Jesus, but that this is the perfect thing that Paul is writing about… because he is not. Neither truth nor scriptures are referenced in the Chapter nor in what comes immediately before or after.


If one were to search the passage for something perfect, the only logical candidate is ‘love’ (agape, not the emotion which is rarely referenced in scripture).

But my dear friend, LOVE is a feeling or emotion and as has been carefully shown to all, the Greek word "TELEIOS" does not allow the meaning of Perfect to be anything other than a "THING" and can not mean an emotion or feeling.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Be warned, if you want unbiased translation of words, don't go somewhere that wears its bias on its sleeve. Try Strong's or Vine's or take a look at interlinear Bible.
You'll see I already posted the results of a search about the word teleios.
 
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1stcenturylady

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But my dear friend, LOVE is a feeling or emotion and as has been carefully shown to all, the Greek word "TELEIOS" does not allow the meaning of Perfect to be anything other than a "THING" and can not mean an emotion or feeling.

But the "thing" you think it is, is wrong and unscriptural. It does not take into account that everything in the New Covenant is for the ENTIRE length of the Covenant. The gifts of the Spirit are for the Church until it is taken to heaven where we will see Him FACE TO FACE. It is only those ignorant of our covenant that want to claim otherwise.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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GoldenKingGaze

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I am sorry but I can not agree with your opinion. As for CONTEXT however you are in my opinion very correct.

Context.............

The subject at hand for context begins in 1 Corinthians 12:1 and ends with 1 Corinthians 14:40.

Chapter 12 deals with the diversity of spiritual gifts.

In 12:31 we are introduced to the quality of LOVE in contrast with SPIRITUAL GIFTS.

In V.31 Paul told the Corinthians, "But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way."

Then in chapter 13:1-3 he points out that "love" is more important than the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecies, and knowledge.

In vv. 9-10 Paul contrasts that which is "in part" and that which is "perfect." He says now we know "in part" and we prophesy "in part," and then tells us that which is ''in part" shall be done away with and replaced by "that which is perfect."

And then, (in v.12) he says, "I shall FULLY know as I am FULLY known."

Consider the two Greek words that are translated as "in part" and "perfect."

"In part" is translated from the Greek [ek merous], meaning PARTIALLY. Paul knew God's will PARTIALLY through spiritual gifts. Later Paul would know FULLY, or completely when all the parts are put together.

Now look at 1 Corinthians 12:27 where Paul speaks of "members in particular." (ek merous); i.e. each person who had a gift was only a part of the whole. (Consider the context.)

Then there is that pesky Greek word, "Perfect" is translated from the Greek [teleion], meaning, according to Thayer's LEXICON, "brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness."

In the Arndt-Gingrich LEXICON the word is described as, "having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect."

It is important to note that this word is an ADJECTIVE and not a NOUN. Some have taught, in error, that "that which is perfect" refers to Jesus. But even in our English language we never refer to a person as a ''that."

In Greek or English "that" is neuter gender. That means GRAMATIVALLY that Christ is not referred to as "that" but as "who." The key to understanding this passage properly is in the proper understanding of the word "perfect."

"That which is perfect (COMPLETE)" is the COMPLETION of that which is in part. We KNOW "in part" and we PROPHESY "in part" refers to the proclamation of the gospel by divine will as the apostles were teaching by the use of spiritual gifts. When Jesus promised to guide the apostles into "all truth " (John 6:13) it was not done all at once. During the first century these inspired men were each revealing the parts of the whole gospel as the Lord was revealing it to them through the Holy Spirit (via spiritual gifts). It was not until almost the close of the first century that the whole had been revealed.

Paul gives us an illustration. When a child grows up (matures) and becomes full grown, he puts away that which is childish. "I spoke as a child" - immature thoughts and ideas; "understood as a child" - lacking in knowledge; "I thought as a child" - reasoning based upon limited knowledge and understanding. He compared it to trying to see one's face in a dark and smoky glass compared to the reality of face to face.

We have the PERFECT revelation from God in the Scriptures. Desiring "spiritual gifts" is to desire to go back to looking through the "dark glass."

Spiritual gifts ceased because their need ceased. Some died instantly. The spiritual gifts of prophecies and knowledge was "done away" [katargeo]. When God finished His gospel to us there was no more need for those spiritual gifts. These spiritual gifts stopped because God stopped revealing. His message was complete. Some spiritual gifts lingered for awhile and died of their own accord. The spiritual gift of tongues would "cease" [pauomai], or stop by itself. One would assume that when the last person died who had the spiritual gift of tongues, which was actually the apostles, that spiritual gift died also.
If one can imagine that the the "perfect" or the "mature" is a book, that is somehow the perfect reflection of Christ's love, then why not a perfect light or revelation? As in His presence, in Heaven, or at Christ return? Why not the maturing of the age? The maturing of the church, Christ's bride, the promised perfection, wrinkle and stain free? I am saying often here that it does not have to be Christ Jesus, but the revelation from Him. Revelation of love in the Bible, no, revelation of Christ in His presence, or at the completeness of the age or church/bride, or at the second coming is better, true?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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But my dear friend, LOVE is a feeling or emotion and as has been carefully shown to all, the Greek word "TELEIOS" does not allow the meaning of Perfect to be anything other than a "THING" and can not mean an emotion or feeling.
God is love and Christ is the perfect likeness of love, or simply love itself. Love is the thing the gifts are contrasted against in 1 Corinthians 13. Romans 5:5 love pours, and is not merely an emotion, and Christ is not a personified emotion. Like living water, or God's light, love is a thing.
 
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MyGivenNameIsKeith

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When you seek the answer, or seek knowledge, you
"seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness...". (matthew 6:33)
To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. (proverbs 1:6)
The fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge, fools despise wisdom and instruction (proverbs 1:7)
So naturally you would and should begin with God's word. For it is profitable for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. (2 timothy 3:16)
Secondly, define what speaking in tongues means, thereby citing examples. 1corinthians
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?
7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?
8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?
9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.
11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me.
12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.
16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,d say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

So clearly it is shown that one spoke in a tongue to build up the church and was done so according to the spirit. To be a witness to someone, and lead them to the Lord. It shows that these men from Galilee (Acts 2:7) spoke and they were heard in the language of the hearer for that purpose.
In reference to the beginning of Chapter 14 verse 2 I believe in Corinthians it states that IF WE SPEAK IN AN UNKNOWN TONGUE, that we are speaking to God, and not to men. It s for the purpose of edifying oneself that we speak in an unknown tongue to God (this is called praying if I'm not mistaken) and in verse 3 it talks of prophesying as the greater gift which is used for the edifying of the church, exhortation, and comfort. (Not tongues)
Beware false miracles.
Personally, I've been to many Pentecostal churches, and they seem to indeed have zeal for the Lord. But I know not the shape of another man's heart as the Lord does. I cannot say what one does in a church I have never seen or utterances which I have not heard. But my testimony is this:
Most, if not all people who claim to speak in tongues, really only speak gibberish. They have truly become so lost as the Gentiles are prophesied to be as "those who seek after signs". They drive people away from the church and fight with others as to the validity of it, when the very concept BIBLICALLY is said to be for self-edification. (Lifting oneself up, and in church might I add).
I am certain, that I have spoke in tongues before, but it wasn't anything like it is shown in Charismatic congregations. I was in deep prayer, probably a good twenty minutes at least at this point and I literally heard and felt a voice speaking that was not my own, but yet came from inside me at the same time. I felt words, that I could not express, that only resonated through me like an emotion or a feeling. A voice that said things that I could not say. As Pau pointed out from his vision where he was caught up in the spirit, there were things that were unlawful for man to say. And does not even James warn us that the tongue is an unruly evil full of deadly poison? I beseech thee to be temperate in all things, be humble. Because I have noticed that none prophesy, yet all speak in tongues with no interpreter. Concerned primarily with "gimme, gimme, gimme" and gifts; all the while missing the point of the gospel, which was?? TO PREACH IT!!! Sounds rather selfish and exactly what we were warned of. As if Corinthians were the only book in the Bible. I would not condemn you, as I have not. But that is my testimony. I love the Lord Jesus Christ with everything I am. I am sinner that he chose to have mercy upon. He pulled me from a darkness that was so deep and miserable I can't even express in words what depths it felt like, but he was there the whole time by my side. Just as David had said in Psalms, whether I had made my bed in heaven or hell, he was there. I encourage you to discern what is godly and righteous, from what is fake and idolatrous. The biggest idol (and first mentioned in the bible) we need to recognize is ourselves. Too many of us worship ourselves and not God. Even when we claim to worship God, most still really don't. How would I know? I've been there.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Praying in unknown tongues is for the edification of the prayer, why would that stop. People need it all the time, decade after decade. If it does nothing, from the subjective point of view, leave it go. Instead it has positive testimonies.
 
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1stcenturylady

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If one can imagine that the the "perfect" or the "mature" is a book, that is somehow the perfect reflection of Christ's love, then why not a perfect light or revelation? As in His presence, in Heaven, or at Christ return? Why not the maturing of the age? The maturing of the church, Christ's bride, the promised perfection, wrinkle and stain free? I am saying often here that it does not have to be Christ Jesus, but the revelation from Him. Revelation of love in the Bible, no, revelation of Christ in His presence, or at the completeness of the age or church/bride, or at the second coming is better, true?

Why don't you try to imagine a covenant that doesn't have holes deliberately poked in it. God doesn't, so why do you? Don't make the Bible an idol to be worshiped without adhering to what it says, and RECEIVING its promises! "My sheep hear My voice." It is actually literal, and manifests still today.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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But my dear friend, LOVE is a feeling or emotion and as has been carefully shown to all, the Greek word "TELEIOS" does not allow the meaning of Perfect to be anything other than a "THING" and can not mean an emotion or feeling.
Major, what is the point of quoting the Greek meaning of one word if you can't be bothered to understand the meaning of another.

If you understand love in the New Testament as an emotion, your dismissing of spiritual gifts is the least of your problems. You don't even understand God, except as an emotion.
 
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Major1

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Major, what is the point of quoting the Greek meaning of one word if you can't be bothered to understand the meaning of another.

If you understand love in the New Testament as an emotion, your dismissing of spiritual gifts is the least of your problems. You don't even understand God, except as an emotion.

Silly, I do not have any problems my friend.

You brought up the idea that "love" is the context of chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians.
The point is that YOU are wrong on your understanding that love is the context of 1 Cor. 12-14.
It is not........The context is the Gifts as I listed them for you.

Then the real problem is that YOU do not seem to be able to grasp that what YOU want is impossible to be as the Grammar of the Greek language will not allow it.

Strongs Concordance #5048.

"teleios": to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Short Definition: complete, accomplish, make perfect, mature
Definition: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from telos
Definition
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
NASB Translation
complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).

WHY it is important my brother is that when describing things instead of people, the Greek Grammar DEMANDS that the gender will be neuter or, in one instance, feminine gender. Most of the time, the adjective has a named subject that it modifies. But in the 1 Corinthians 13 passage, only the context can determine because the adjective stands alone: "the perfect."

"When THAT (Greek: To Teleion) which is perfect is come" .

The pronoun "THAT" in Greek, describing the perfect, is neuter.

Now here is YOUR answer.......Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return or love as love is an emotion and is NOT NUETER. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.
So the meaning of the adjective is determined by the context.

Since that is the GRAMMATICAL FACT it means that the "perfect" of 1 Cor. 13 is a THING which must be the completed word of God.

I suggest that YOU do some more study on the REALITY of what Paul actually did say and less time debating with me on what YOU wanted him to say.
 
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Major1

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Praying in unknown tongues is for the edification of the prayer, why would that stop. People need it all the time, decade after decade. If it does nothing, from the subjective point of view, leave it go. Instead it has positive testimonies.

WHY would it stop???

Because God said it would my friend.

1 Corinthians 13:8.................
"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away".

Now let me ask you this...............
Can God lie?
Did God say it?
Is hell real?
 
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Major1

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If one can imagine that the the "perfect" or the "mature" is a book, that is somehow the perfect reflection of Christ's love, then why not a perfect light or revelation? As in His presence, in Heaven, or at Christ return? Why not the maturing of the age? The maturing of the church, Christ's bride, the promised perfection, wrinkle and stain free? I am saying often here that it does not have to be Christ Jesus, but the revelation from Him. Revelation of love in the Bible, no, revelation of Christ in His presence, or at the completeness of the age or church/bride, or at the second coming is better, true?

NOPE!

The Bible my dear friend IS the Revelation of Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation.
Who do YOU think gave the words to man so as to make the Bible a reality. It was the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. THAT is why the Word of God is PERFECT and contains no errors or mistakes as the ONE who gave it is the Perfect Son of God.

Again, you are "Rationalizing". You are working to try and make what the Scriptures say fit what YOU want them to say.

Just LOOK at what you just said.......................
"then why not a perfect light or revelation?"
"The maturing of the church, Christ's bride?"
"Revelation of love in the Bible".
"revelation of Christ in His presence"?
"completeness of the age or church/bride?"
"the second coming is better, true"?

Not a single one of those ideas are allowed by the Greek Grammar of the meaning of the word "TELEIOS" as the definition of the "Perfect" in verse #8. IT IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE!!!!

YOU are simply throwing ideas and opinions at the wall hoping that one of them sticks so that you can go on speaking in tongues believing that the Bible validate what YOU want to do.

YOU speak in tongues therefore you will work to make the Bible say what you want to do as you like doing the tongues emotional feeling.
 
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Major1

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God is love and Christ is the perfect likeness of love, or simply love itself. Love is the thing the gifts are contrasted against in 1 Corinthians 13. Romans 5:5 love pours, and is not merely an emotion, and Christ is not a personified emotion. Like living water, or God's light, love is a thing.

No Sir.

A stick is a thing.
A rock is a thing.
A car is a thing.

Love is an emotion and can never being understood as a THING unless that is what YOU want it to mean.
 
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