6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

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That's the miracle.

-CryptoLutheran
But a miracle wouldn't be turning water into grape juice? That wine Jesus miraculously made was distinguishable in taste from the wine before. And I understand that wouldn't be a complete explanation for how the wine Jesus made was pure.
 
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alex2165

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PASSOVER WINE



I argued with a person about the same issue long time ago, but I do not remember on which forum. He claimed that during Passover it is OK to drink juice and not wine. I, on the other hand claimed that those who drink juice during Passover ritual violate the holy and sanctified ritual, and will be guilty against Blood of Christ, because Jesus symbolically presented His Blood as Wine (generally alcohol also called as spirits).

Anyway, I found my old file what I posted at that time, and I think it would be in some relevant to the issue discussed here.



Because “fruit of vine” can be interpreted both ways, as juice and as wine in English and in Greek, let take a look how wine and juice are presented in the Bible.



I found so many verses mentioned wine in the Bible, in good sense, that it is really impossible to show all of them here, but I took very few of them in order to show you how Bible magnified the significance of wine as a very important part of our life, and in the worship of the Lord, and as the Blood of Christ.



Genesis 14.18

18.And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine, now he was a priest of GOD Most High.



Did Melchizedek meet Abraham with juice? Do you see comparison here between bread and wine of Melchizedek and the Body-Bread and the Blood-Wine of Jesus Christ?



Prophesy of Jacob about Judah and Jesus Christ.



Genesis 49.10-12

10.The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh (Messiah - Jesus Christ) comes, and to Him shall be the obedience of the peoples (Numbers 24.17).

11.He ties his foal to the vine, and his donkey's colt to the choice vine. He washes his garments in wine, and his robes in the blood of grapes (notice here in this sentence that the blood of grapes compared to wine.)

12.His eyes are dull from wine, and his teeth white from milk.



Blood of grapes means wine.


Deuteronomy 32.14

14.Curds of cows and milk of the flock, with fat of lambs and rams, the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the finest of the wheat, and of the blood of grapes you drank wine.



So these verses clearly indicate that the wine symbolically can be called as the blood of grapes and the blood of grapes as wine.



Instructions for the Atonement for the Altar and offerings to the Lord.



Exodus 29.40

40.”and there shall be one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with one-forth of a hin of beaten oil, and one-forth of a hin of wine for a libation with one lamb.”



Numbers 18.12.27

12.All the best of the fresh oil, and all the best of the fresh wine, and all the grain, the first fruits of those which they give to the Lord, I give them to you (to Levites as their portion from the offerings to the Lord).

27.And your offering shall be reckoned to you as the grain from the threshing floor, or the full produce from the wine vat.



Numbers 15.5.7

5.and you shall prepare wine for the libation, one-forth of a hin with the Burnt Offering, or for the sacrifice for each lamb.

7.and for the libation you shall offer one-third of a hin of wine as a soothing aroma to the Lord.

10.and you shall offer as the libation one-half a hin of wine as an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord.



Numbers 28.14

14.And their libation shall be half a hin of wine for a bull and a third of a hin for the ram and a forth of a hin for a lamb, this is the Burnt Offering of each month throughout the months of the year.



Can you recall any statute or action in the Bible when the grape juice has been offered to the Lord? Do you notice here that the wine also has been presented with the sacrificial lamb?

When Jesus Christ was crucified, someone gave Him “a sponge filled with sour wine,” (Matthew 27.48) (John 19.29-30), its means that Jesus as a sacrificial Lamb has been presented with wine to the Lord GOD as the Law of Moses specified and required. Even at His death He had managed to fulfill entire Law of Moses, and the wine played important part in it.



Wine as a part of tithes.



2Chronicles 31.5

5.And as soon as the order spread, the sons of Israel provided in abundance the first fruits of grain, new wine, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field, and they brought in abundantly the tithe of all.



Nehemiah 13.5.12

5.had prepared a large room for him, where formerly they put the grain offerings, the frankincense, the utensils, and the tithes of grain, wine and oil, prescribed for Levites, the singers, and the gatekeepers, and the contributions for the priests.

12.All Judah then brought the tithe of the grain, wine, and oil, into the storehouses.



Deuteronomy 14.23

23.And you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your GOD, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the Lord your GOD always.



Can you recall a passage in the Bible where the juice also has been offered as the tithe to the Lord?



Wine change mood and provide gladness and happiness.



Psalm 104.15

15.and wine which makes man's heart glad, so that he may make his face glisten with oil, and food which sustains man's heart.


Proverbs 31.6-7

6.Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress,

7.let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.



Ecclesiastes 9.7

7.Go then, eat your bread in happiness, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart, GOD has already approved your works.



Ecclesiastes 10.19

19.Feasts are made for laughter, wine gladdens life, and money meets every need.



Does the grape juice will change your mood for the better in your sadness or distress, or make you glad and happy at the celebration?



Wine as a part of the blessing



Proverbs 3.9-10

9.Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce,

10.so your barns will be filled with plenty and your vats will overflow with new wine.



Deuteronomy 7.13

13.And He will love you and bless you and multiply you, He will also bless the fruit of your womb, and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your new wine, and your oil, the increase of your herd, and the young of your flock, in the land which He swore to your forefathers to give you.



Did GOD ever bless juice? Or gave any significance to it?



Prophesy about future of Israel.


Isaiah 25.6

6.And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain (Mt. Zion), a banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, and refined aged wine.



During the wedding at Cana to what substance Jesus turned water, to juice or to wine? See John 2.1-10



The juice as such only mentioned in two places of the Bible, in the Law for Nazarite, and in the Songs of Solomon.



Numbers 6.3

3.he shall abstain from wine and strong drink, he shall drink no vinegar whether made from wine or strong drink, neither shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes.



Songs of Solomon 8.2

2.I would lead you and bring you into the house of my mother, who used to instruct me, I would give you spiced wine to drink from the juice of my pomegranates.



So how after all of these Blood of Christ can be compared to worthless juice? It does not make any sense to compare Jesus’ Blood to juice which has no any kind of importance or magnitude in the Bible and signifies nothing, but the wine mentioned very often, almost in every Book of the Bible, and always with certain significance, meaning, worth, and value.



And I am positively sure that “the fruit of the vine” has only one meaning, which means real wine and nothing else. And Jesus and His disciples drank wine which Jesus symbolically presenting it as His Blood, at the Passover Holiday.



And as being a Jew, Jesus also drank wine at every meal He had, just like any other native Jew would do. So grape juice practically has no place in any of the rituals or in any symbolism related to rituals, or to GOD Father, or to Jesus Christ, nor as a drink, neither as anything else, and symbolizes nothing at all. The only purpose for the vineyards to possess and to grow was to make wine out of juice.









Yes, I have no concern for such folks, and for others like them whose addiction can be triggered by word, or scene, or picture, or taste, or by some ones behavior, or by something else whatever it may be.



So shall we stop everything for the sake of those who may or may not return to their addiction because of something we said, presented, did, or perform.?



If someone has addiction to alcohol and a few drops of wine would make such people return back to his/her addiction, let them not participate in the holy Passover of Jesus Christ until they completely recovered and no longer tempted to abuse alcohol.



Because as I already mentioned in my post, NOT PARTICIPATING IN THE PASSOVER IS NOT A SIN, BUT PARTICIPATING UNWORTHY IS A SIN.



It is not the alcohol that is addictive, but the people who using it prone to addiction who drink too much and do not know then to stop, abusing the drink and have no sense of limit and common sense.



Should we also stop eat unleavened bread during Passover, because may be someone in our midst have eating disorder? And such person would go back home and eat himself to death?



Should we also stop mentioned murders in the Bible and the death of Christ on the cross, because someone who have in the past violent thoughts and psychologically unstable will return back home and murder his wife?



If we change wine on juice for the sake of those who cannot control themselves and did not completely recovered from their addictions, should we also replace words and all the passages and rituals of the Bible where may or may not someone may return to their addiction.



I myself was addicted to cigarettes for a long time and smoke a lot of them each day, I prayed to the Lord and a week later stop smoking completely, and while people around me still smoke and I can smell the smoke of cigarettes, I have absolutely no temptation, desire, or craving to start to smoke again, it just gone out of me forever.



Should not the same thing happen to all who tempted by alcohol, or by anything else for that matter?



If a person completely recovered, he or she would never be tempted again, but if a person not completely recovered, let him/her to stay away from temptation and work on themselves until they completely recovered from their addiction.



1Corinthians 8.13

13.Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble. (Matthew 18.6-7) (Mark 9.42) (Luke 17.1-2) (1Corinthians 8.9-13)



Here Paul talks about meals, meat of which was dedicated to idols, so he suggesting that he would not eat this meat again in the front of those who think that it is not right, in order to avoid frictions and unnecessary arguments. Actually read the whole chapter, it is very short, in order for you to understand what Paul actually meant when he wrote about this issue.



Same thing also applies to those who recovering from addiction of alcohol. I would never drink alcohol in front of them or on the social occasion, but in the church I would say to him or to her to go outside, if few drops of wine may trigger their addiction or temptation, and return back then we finishes the ritual.



And as extra bonus please read the verses below.



Titus 1.15

15.To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but both, their mind and their conscience are defiles.



Hebrews 13.9

9.Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by regulations about food which have not benefited those who observe them.





(Jesus as a Bread of Life: (Matthew 26.26) (Mark 14.22) (Luke 6.33.35.48.50-54.58, 22.19)
 
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Der Alte

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But the thread is not about the wine they had been drinking before it ran out, its about the water that Jesus miraclously turned into wine.
Jesus supposedly turned water into fresh, unfermented grape juice, 7-8 months after the previous year's grape harvest, and the governor of the feast called it "the good wine" and did not question how the bridegroom could serve fresh grape juice in the spring of the year? Wonder if anyone is interested in some ocean front property in Arizona real cheap? How much grape juice does one have to drink before they can't tell the difference between good and bad grape juice?
 
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Jesus supposedly turned water into fresh, unfermented grape juice, 7-8 months after the previous year's grape harvest, and the governor of the feast called it "the good wine" and did not question how the bridegroom could serve fresh grape juice in the spring of the year? Wonder if anyone is interested in some ocean front property in Arizona real cheap? How much grape juice does one have to drink before they can't tell the difference between good and bad grape juice?

To argue that the ancients could not preserve un-intoxicating wine is wrong factually, scientifically, and historically. Actually, fermented wine was more difficult to make and preserve, than unfermented wine.

Unfermented wine could easily be preserved without electricity, refrigeration, or pasteurization. Following are several examples.

Reduce Its Consistency

One way is to boil fresh expressed wine down to about a third or fifth of its consistency. This thick, strong wine or syrup would keep without fermentation. When ready to drink, it would just be mixed with water. This was also done with cider and other fruit.

Patrick E. McGovern is a pro-drinking secular authority on ancient and modern wine. He said, “Concentrating grape juice down by heating is still used to make the popular shireh of modern Iran and was known to the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia as well as the Greeks and Romans. It enables fruit to be preserved, and, diluted with water, it produces a refreshing, nonalcoholic beverage.” (Ancient Wine: The Search For The Origins Of Viniculture by Patrick E. McGovern, Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, 2003).

Tischendorf wrote of a visit to Coptic monasteries in Egypt in 1845, “Instead of wine they use a thick juice of the grape, which I at first mistook for oil.”

Aristotle said the wine of Arcadia was so thick it was necessary to scrape it from the wineskins and dissolve it in water (Patton, Bible Wines).

Length of the Grape Harvest

The grape harvest lasted six months. This was done by planting different varieties of grapes, and planting them in different microclimates. Ancient writers testified of the vast number of varieties of grapes; some said they were innumerable. Grape vines and cuttings were transported throughout the Roman world.

Israel was at the crossroads of the world. Agriculture was their life. Some vines bear an early harvest, some midseason, some late. The first grapes can be picked as early as July, the latest in December. Some vines ripen all their grapes at once; others over a long period of time. Some grapes bore two crops a year. Grapes right off the vine were available for half the year.

It was a common practice to squeeze a bunch of grapes by hand directly into a cup and drink that fresh, sweet (fermentation takes away the sweetness) unfermented wine. “Then Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand; and I took the grapes and pressed them into Pharaoh’s cup, and placed the cup in Pharaoh’s hand” (Genesis 40:11). Historian Josephus refers to this. Pharaoh apparently preferred his wine fresh and unfermented.

A stone relief found in the Roman city of Pompeii pictures the god of wine (in sore need of a loincloth), squeezing grapes by hand into a cup (Patton, Bible Wines). Early church writings referred to pressing grapes into a cup for the Lord’s Supper.

Grapes Preserved Fresh

Grapes could be preserved fresh for months. Some will protest their grapes don’t keep long. Let me explain. Any old-time gardener will tell you some fruits and vegetables are “good keepers,” others are not. A good keeper, at room temperature, can remain fresh for months. This was especially well-known in ancient times when such knowledge could mean the difference between going hungry or not, or even prevent starvation.

Characteristics of good “keeping” grapes include a tough skin and adhering well to the cluster. The cluster would be cut from the vine. Any bad grapes would be clipped, not pulled, from the cluster. Pulling a grape leaves a “brush” that can start a molding, decaying process. Grape clusters were loosely packed in straw, cotton, bran, or hung from the ceiling. Periodically they would be inspected and any bad grapes clipped off.

The right varieties of grapes stored in this way would last fresh for months. Leon C. Field, Methodist scholar, said, in 1883, “Niebuhr says that, ‘the Arabs preserve grapes by hanging them up in their cellars, and eat them almost through the whole year.’ Dr. Kerr says, ‘A friend of mine now in Britain not long since unpacked grapes he had received eleven months previously from the continent, finding them fresh and good.’”

An early 1800s recipe book, called “receipts” back then, gives directions that would preserve grapes fresh for 12 months. These grapes could be pressed into a cup at any time of the year (New Family Receipt Book, London; 1820).

Made from Dried Grapes

Wine was also made from dried grapes or raisins. Drying is one of the oldest methods of preserving food. Raisins were rehydrated by soaking or boiling and pressed into wine.

The Talmud (ancient Jewish writings) refers to raisin wine. Polybius (Greek historian c. 100 BC) spoke of un-intoxicating raisin wine. A medieval Arabian writer refers to raisin wine for the Lord’s Supper. Modern day Jews refer to raisin wine.

Sealing “Must”

Seal “must” in amphora (wine container). Roman writer Cato (c. 170 BC) said, “If you would keep must [new unfermented wine] for a year, pour it into an amphora and seal the cork with pitch. Immerse the amphora in cold water for thirty days. Then remove it and the must will be preserved for one year” (De Agri Cultura).

Additionally, olive oil and resin were used to make containers and contents airtight. Filtering was claimed to break the strength of wine. Chemical additives were used. Fermented wine could be boiled to remove the alcohol.

The above methods were widely practiced and provided unfermented wine throughout the year. So, don’t let anyone tell you, scholar or otherwise, that in Bible times they had no choice but to drink fermented wine.

Source:
GULF COAST PASTOR: Preserving Unfermented Wine in Bible Times
(Please take note that I may not believe everything this Pastor teaches. I am merely in agreement with his article here - Thank you).
 
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The same points made to defend drinking alcohol are arguments that I've heard that defend both drug and tobacco usage as never having been directly addressed in Scripture.

But it's still wrong.

I know how you feel.

Alcohol seeks to destroy life.

I strongly caution against Christians drinking with a meal (or socially) because it a destructive drug. If they knew what I knew about it, they would not drink. For the OT saint, drinking strong alcoholic beverages was sinful. In the NT, we have a liberty in Christ, but we are not to let our liberty be evil spoken of. I believe there are cases where a believer can drink soberly and responsibly in the privacy of their own home. For me, I cannot drink as a part of a meal because my conscience would condemn me because I know how destructive it is (Unless it was for medical reasons to ease pain or to kill germs within my stomach). But social drinking is generally bad from my study and experience. So I warn them of this truth. I do not fight for a Christian's right to be ignorant of the truth, but I do realize that Christians have a liberty that the OT saint did not have. They are saved by their ignorance of the truth on this one, unless they get drunk or they make their brother to stumble, etc.

As for tobacco: Most today know that tobacco kills you. God says if we destroy our temple, God will destroy us. We were made in God's image, so in a way we are seeking to destroy that every time we partake in something we know is truly bad for ourselves. I would say that in the old days when people were uninformed about the health risks of tobacco, they would had a Christian a liberty to smoke tobacco. But this is not really possible or common today because most everyone knows tobacco kills you. So I see tobacco smoking as a sin for a Christian. It would be extremely rare for a believer today not to know that tobacco kills them.

What is strange is that people have magically hid the truth about alcohol and it's destructive nature to their body and mind. Even with the internet, they refuse to seek this truth out and know the truth for themselves on this.

Sometimes, the only thing we can do is pray and love them.
 
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dudr17

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Simply put, the Greek Word used for “wine” in the New Testament is “oinos”; fermented juice. In the Old Testament, the Word used for “wine” is “yayin”. Again, meaning “fermented juice”. If you don’t think you should drink, fine. You, individually, probably shouldn’t drink. But please don’t impose on others your scruple by twisting scripture, or, in this case, by not properly studying it. Thank you.
 
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Jason, Jesus made wine, probably wine that was cut with water. That's all there is to this. If you think he did wrong, just say that.

Answer the questions.

Do you believe that drunkenness is a sin?
Were the guests at the wedding party tipsy or drunk with wine?
If Jesus made intoxicating wine and the wedding party was "...well drunk..." of the good wine (John 2:10), then how could they not be drunk when Jesus gave of them even more intoxicating wine?

Please answer these questions please.
 
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Simply put, the Greek Word used for “wine” in the New Testament is “oinos”; fermented juice. In the Old Testament, the Word used for “wine” is “yayin”. Again, meaning “fermented juice”. If you don’t think you should drink, fine. You, individually, probably shouldn’t drink. But please don’t impose on others your scruple by twisting scripture, or, in this case, by not properly studying it. Thank you.

If somebody properly studied this, then they would provide a more solid explanation with Scripture with the verses I presented in my OP.
 
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Simply put, the Greek Word used for “wine” in the New Testament is “oinos”; fermented juice. In the Old Testament, the Word used for “wine” is “yayin”. Again, meaning “fermented juice”. If you don’t think you should drink, fine. You, individually, probably shouldn’t drink. But please don’t impose on others your scruple by twisting scripture, or, in this case, by not properly studying it. Thank you.
I wish it were that simple, dudr.
 
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Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus's Miracle Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):

If Jesus made alcoholic wine He would have broken Scripture in a number of places and he would have encouraged future generations of alcoholics to have the green light that it is okay to drink (Whereby they would slip back into drinking themselves to death). Anyways, here are 6 reasons in the Bible that make it absolutely clear that Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine.

#1. Jesus's Pure Blood is likened to the Pure Wine that He made.
Jesus's blood washes away our sins. Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Jesus says He is the bread of life and that we are to eat of his flesh and blood. Jesus is life. However, alcohol is not a product of life but it is a picture or symbol of death because it is a byproduct of death and not life. This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice and it was worthy of reflecting his glory in Him being the perfect, sinless Son of God. "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."(Deuteronomy 32:14).

#2. Woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.

"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also," (Habakkuk 2:15). If Jesus gave strong drink to his fellow neighbors here, he would be under the woe of Habakkuk 2:15. This would not be a blessing for Jesus but it would be a curse if he were to disobey this part of Scripture.

#3. Jesus is a King (And wine is not for kings).
Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advice or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#4. Warnings against Alcohol.
Wine is a mocker (Proverbs 20:1). Strong drink is raging (Proverbs 20:1). Whoever is deceived by it is not wise (Proverbs 20:1). Wine bites like a serpent and stings like an adder (Proverbs 23:32). Do not look upon wine when it is red in the cup and when it moves itself aright (Proverbs 23:31). You have not eaten bread, neither have you drunk wine or strong drink: that you might know that I am the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:6). Who has woe? who has sorrow? who has contentions? who has babbling? who has wounds without cause? who has redness of eyes? (Proverbs 23:29). They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (Proverbs 23:30).

#5. If Jesus did get people drunk (It would be a sin) & They would no longer be Sober.
Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

#6. Christ set a good example by His miracle.
The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.

Conclusion:
Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!

The problem is the bible says "wine" and not "grape juice" or "unfermented wine".
 
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Okay, first off, I am not a Mormon. For truth is not determined by association of a particular religion. Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not mean the Trinity is not true just because they believe in it. Second, the word "wine" is defined at Dictionary.com as unfermented wine or fermented wine. Knowing which one is which makes all the difference in the world when you read your Bible. Three, in John 2:10, the guests were "...well drunk..." with the good wine at the wedding. So if they drank well of whatever substance they had at the wedding and it was intoxicating, then they would either be tipsy or drunk. Jesus making even more intoxicating wine would have definitely made them drunk and that would have been a sin. For drunkenness is condemned in the New Testament.

As for the symbol of Christ's blood being like wine: I did not make that up. The Scripture tells us that his blood is symbolic of the wine and that his body is symbolic of the bread in the last supper. Yeast in bread puffs up the bread. Yeast is a type of sin. This is in your Bible, as well. Also, yeast ferments wine. Again, yeast is a type of sin. The wine is symbolic of Christ's blood that cleanses us from sin. Nothing dirty can clean anything. So Christ's blood had to be pure. Scripture says there is a "pure blood of the grape." These are types or symbols or parallels. Jesus says the Scriptures testify of Him. I believe Him.

As for wine being good for you:

This is only a LITTLE bit of wine for stomach problems.
They did not have the luxury of buying purified bottled water at the local store.
Actually if you were to take alcohol and pour it into a dish that had dirty penny in it, the alcohol would clean the penny. Now, if you pour alcohol into your body, it does not know whether it is outside the body or inside the body. It seeks to destroy and that is what it does. It kills brain cells and effects judgment. There is no food value in wine or alcoholic beverages. Try reading the label next time. It is technically a poison that the body can simply fight off. Your immune system can tolerate this kind of mild poison. Also, it is highly addictive, as well. This can lead to drinking one more and then another and then another leading to drunkenness (Which is a sin). People die from alcohol every day. Drinking and driving is a big killer here in the States.

Not saying you are a Mormon, just bringing that to your attention.
The scripture does not say they were drunk. It said "when the guests have well drunk", a past tense of drink, not intoxicated, but just implying "after having a few glasses of good stuff, then the inferior wind is brought out and sure some people like myself will get a buzz on one glass and stop after two -- I'm a light weight as they say. People drink wine with every meal and build a tolerance to the level where a few glasses has no effect on them. The master of the ceremony was just commenting on the quality of the wine, it was good, probably the best he ever had. He wouldn't have commented on grape juice. Everyone probably purchased from the local vineyard and so grape juice from the same grapes would have little variance in quality or taste. Grape juice is grape juice. And another poster made an excellent point, they did not have refrigerators to keep grape juice fresh, nor did they just squeeze some for that occasion. No, this is why it was wine. Wine could be preserved, not juice! HE WOULD NOT MAKE AN ISSUE ABOUT THE QUALITY OF GRAPE JUICE AT A WEDDING. THEY DRANK WINE THAT WAS FERMENTED AT THE WEDDING -- HOW MANY WEDDINGS HAVE YOU BEEN TO? THAT'S THE MIRACLE, TO TURN WATER INTO FERMENTED WINE WHICH TAKES TIME. They could have sent the disciples to buy some grapes, take off their shoes, jump in a pile and stump some grapes for juice for that matter -- no miracle needed. But it would also have to have been harvest season.

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG ABOUT THE HEALTH VALUE OF WINE. IT CONTAINS RESVERATROL. THIS IS A MODERN DAY SUPER NUTRIENT THAT IS SOLD IN HEALTH FOOD STORES, AN QUALTIY ANTIOXIDANT THAT HEALS THE BODY AND HAS YOUTHFUL BENEFITS.
AGAIN, DON'T GET DRUNK IS THE MESSAGE OF THE BIBLE. It happens sometimes, but the practice and frequent intoxication is letting wine be your master. You are not in control when drunk and so this is taught, the destructive habit/addiction to avoid.

You are well meaning but this post is just not true, nice try though.
 
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Der Alte

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To argue that the ancients could not preserve un-intoxicating wine is wrong factually, scientifically, and historically. Actually, fermented wine was more difficult to make and preserve, than unfermented wine.

Unfermented wine could easily be preserved without electricity, refrigeration, or pasteurization. Following are several examples.

Reduce Its Consistency

One way is to boil fresh expressed wine down to about a third or fifth of its consistency. This thick, strong wine or syrup would keep without fermentation. When ready to drink, it would just be mixed with water. This was also done with cider and other fruit.

Patrick E. McGovern is a pro-drinking secular authority on ancient and modern wine. He said, “Concentrating grape juice down by heating is still used to make the popular shireh of modern Iran and was known to the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia as well as the Greeks and Romans. It enables fruit to be preserved, and, diluted with water, it produces a refreshing, nonalcoholic beverage.” (Ancient Wine: The Search For The Origins Of Viniculture by Patrick E. McGovern, Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, 2003).

Tischendorf wrote of a visit to Coptic monasteries in Egypt in 1845, “Instead of wine they use a thick juice of the grape, which I at first mistook for oil.”

Aristotle said the wine of Arcadia was so thick it was necessary to scrape it from the wineskins and dissolve it in water (Patton, Bible Wines).

Length of the Grape Harvest

The grape harvest lasted six months. This was done by planting different varieties of grapes, and planting them in different microclimates. Ancient writers testified of the vast number of varieties of grapes; some said they were innumerable. Grape vines and cuttings were transported throughout the Roman world.

Israel was at the crossroads of the world. Agriculture was their life. Some vines bear an early harvest, some midseason, some late. The first grapes can be picked as early as July, the latest in December. Some vines ripen all their grapes at once; others over a long period of time. Some grapes bore two crops a year. Grapes right off the vine were available for half the year.

It was a common practice to squeeze a bunch of grapes by hand directly into a cup and drink that fresh, sweet (fermentation takes away the sweetness) unfermented wine. “Then Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand; and I took the grapes and pressed them into Pharaoh’s cup, and placed the cup in Pharaoh’s hand” (Genesis 40:11). Historian Josephus refers to this. Pharaoh apparently preferred his wine fresh and unfermented.

A stone relief found in the Roman city of Pompeii pictures the god of wine (in sore need of a loincloth), squeezing grapes by hand into a cup (Patton, Bible Wines). Early church writings referred to pressing grapes into a cup for the Lord’s Supper.

Grapes Preserved Fresh

Grapes could be preserved fresh for months. Some will protest their grapes don’t keep long. Let me explain. Any old-time gardener will tell you some fruits and vegetables are “good keepers,” others are not. A good keeper, at room temperature, can remain fresh for months. This was especially well-known in ancient times when such knowledge could mean the difference between going hungry or not, or even prevent starvation.

Characteristics of good “keeping” grapes include a tough skin and adhering well to the cluster. The cluster would be cut from the vine. Any bad grapes would be clipped, not pulled, from the cluster. Pulling a grape leaves a “brush” that can start a molding, decaying process. Grape clusters were loosely packed in straw, cotton, bran, or hung from the ceiling. Periodically they would be inspected and any bad grapes clipped off.

The right varieties of grapes stored in this way would last fresh for months. Leon C. Field, Methodist scholar, said, in 1883, “Niebuhr says that, ‘the Arabs preserve grapes by hanging them up in their cellars, and eat them almost through the whole year.’ Dr. Kerr says, ‘A friend of mine now in Britain not long since unpacked grapes he had received eleven months previously from the continent, finding them fresh and good.’”

An early 1800s recipe book, called “receipts” back then, gives directions that would preserve grapes fresh for 12 months. These grapes could be pressed into a cup at any time of the year (New Family Receipt Book, London; 1820).

Made from Dried Grapes

Wine was also made from dried grapes or raisins. Drying is one of the oldest methods of preserving food. Raisins were rehydrated by soaking or boiling and pressed into wine.

The Talmud (ancient Jewish writings) refers to raisin wine. Polybius (Greek historian c. 100 BC) spoke of un-intoxicating raisin wine. A medieval Arabian writer refers to raisin wine for the Lord’s Supper. Modern day Jews refer to raisin wine.

Sealing “Must”

Seal “must” in amphora (wine container). Roman writer Cato (c. 170 BC) said, “If you would keep must [new unfermented wine] for a year, pour it into an amphora and seal the cork with pitch. Immerse the amphora in cold water for thirty days. Then remove it and the must will be preserved for one year” (De Agri Cultura).

Additionally, olive oil and resin were used to make containers and contents airtight. Filtering was claimed to break the strength of wine. Chemical additives were used. Fermented wine could be boiled to remove the alcohol.

The above methods were widely practiced and provided unfermented wine throughout the year. So, don’t let anyone tell you, scholar or otherwise, that in Bible times they had no choice but to drink fermented wine.

Source:
GULF COAST PASTOR: Preserving Unfermented Wine in Bible Times
(Please take note that I may not believe everything this Pastor teaches. I am merely in agreement with his article here - Thank you).
I think this last sentence says it all. Find something which supports your assumptions/presuppositions and present it as an authority although you don't agree with other things the writer said. What I see a lot of in your post is "This guy said this. That guy said that. Some other guy said something else." But very little credible, verifiable, historical evidence. The quote from Cato is wrong look it up, I did.
 
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dudr17

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That’s the language used in every verse that talks about wine. So... do you really want me to quote every single verse that talks about wine with the definitions that I just gave you? It’s unbiblical that you demand people to believe as you do, demanding evidence that’s already been given, when we should be mature enough to obey scripture and encourage others to do the same with proper exegetical teaching. Check out I Corinthians 10:28-33.
 
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Anguspure

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That's my reaction to the stuff also. However, I think this misses the point I was making earlier. The alcoholic content of wines varies. But it's not the case that the higher you get the percentage, the better the wine is. Many other factors account for why some wines are wonderful while others are poor quality. We can't just look at the label and say, "Hmm. 12.5%. That is a better tasting, more full-bodied wine than the one over here which is only 11%!"
Very true. I wish somebody would tell people in the land of Oz that this is the case.
We who drink wine for enjoyment of the flavours take little notice of the alchohol content except that it is noticable, particularly in beer, that a higher alchohol often content carries some flavours better.
 
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I am very much opposed to drinking alcohol, but on social grounds, not religious grounds. It is a social evil that it tied into spousal abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse, etc. However, I doubt very much that Jesus turned water into grape juice.
 
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Der Alte

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The definition of the Hebrew word for wine in Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew lexicon.
H3196. yayin
141 יַ֫יִן noun masculine Psa_75:9 wine (Late Hebrew id.; Ethiopic : vitis, vinea, vinum; Arabic (black) grapes, see HomZMG 1889, 654; Sabean וין vineyard, MordtZMG 1887, 364 Homl.c. 659 (both after Glaser); Assyrian inu in vocabularies, but this loan-word from western Shemites, according to HomAufsätze 102; JenZA i, 186 f., ZMG 1890, 705 argues to the contrary) — absolute יַ֫יִן Gen_9:21 84t.; יָ֑יִן Gen_14:18 33t.; construct יַ֫יִן Psa_60:5; Son_8:2; יֵין Deu_32:18 Deu_32:9t.; suffix יֵינִי Son_5:1, etc.; — wine:

a. common drink, for refreshment Gen_14:18 (E?) Gen_27:25 (J), Jdg_19:19; 2Sa_16:2; Amo_5:11; Amo_9:14; Hos_14:8; Job_1:13, Job_1:18; Dan_1:5 +, tonic Pro_31:6; article of commerce Eze_27:18; Neh_13:15; among supplies in strongholds 2Ch_11:11; as making merry 2Sa_13:28; Zec_9:15; Zec_10:7; Est_1:10; Ecc_9:7; Ecc_10:19; Psa_104:15.
b. used for rejoicing before ׳י Deu_14:26, compare Hos_9:4; as drink-offering in prescribed ritual Exo_29:40; Lev_23:13; Num_15:5, Num_15:7, Num_15:10; Num_28:14; among temple stores 1Ch_9:29; used also in heathen ceremonial, see Deu_32:33.
c. intoxicating 1Sa_1:14; 1Sa_25:37; Gen_9:21, Gen_9:24; Gen_19:32-33, Gen_19:34, Gen_19:35 (all J), Isa_5:11, Isa_5:22; Pro_21:17; Pro_23:30-31, +; || תִּירוֺשׁ Hos_4:11; || שֵׁכָר 1Sa_1:15; Mic_2:11; Isa_24:9; Isa_28:7 (twice in verse); Isa_56:12 Isa_56:12t.; forbidden to Nazirites Num_6:3 (twice in verse) (שֵׁכָר וְחֹמֶץ יַיִן חֹמֶץ), Num_6:4; Num_6:20, compare Amo_2:12; to Rechabites Jer_35:2, Jer_35:5f.; to mother of Samson Jdg_13:4, Jdg_13:7, Jdg_13:14; to priests entering sanctuary Lev_10:9 (P), Eze_44:21; unfitting for kings Pro_31:4.
d. combinations are: הַטּוֺב יֵין Cant 7:10 = the best wine (read כַּיַּיִן ?) Ges§ 133. 3, R. 1; מַלְכוּת יֵין Est_1:7 royal wine; יַּיִן אֹצרְוֺת 1Ch_27:27 stores of wine, wine-supply; הָרֶקַח יַיִן Son_8:2 spiced wine; הַיַּיִן מִשְׁתֵּה wine-feast Est_5:6; Est_7:2, Est_7:7, Est_7:8; יַיִן סֹבְאֵי Pro_23:20 wine-bibbers; יין נאֹד wine-skin Jos_9:4, Jos_9:13; 1Sa_16:20; יין נֵבֶל id. 1Sa_1:24; 1Sa_10:3; 1Sa_25:18; 2Sa_16:1; Jer_13:12 (twice in verse); הַיָּ֑יִן בֵּית Son_2:4 either wine-house, where wine is drunk, feasting-house (De and others), or place of wine = vineyard (Ew and others; compare יַיִן גֶּפֶן Num_6:4).
e. metaphor of wisdom's drink Pro_9:2, Pro_9:5, compare Isa_55:1; of ׳יs wrath Jer_25:15 (היין כּוֺס); of confusion sent by תַּרְעֵלָה יַיִן ׳י, wine of reeling Psa_60:5, compare Psa_75:9; of ׳יs awaking for vengeance, like a wine-shouter Psa_78:65; of Babylon's fierce power Jer_51:7; of love Son_5:1; חֲמָסִים יֵין Pro_4:17; in simile of one bursting with words Job_32:19; of disheartened prophet Jer_23:9 (עֲבָרוֺיַיִן כְּגֶבֶר); of lover's mouth Cant 7:10 (see above); love is better than wine Cant 1:2; 4:10.
 
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To argue that the ancients could not preserve un-intoxicating wine is wrong factually, scientifically, and historically. Actually, fermented wine was more difficult to make and preserve, than unfermented wine.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. You are so obsessed about the issues of social drinking you are allowing yourself to believe things that have nothing to do with reality. You just said something totally contradictory to reality.

Grapes naturally are covered in yeast on the vine. Yeasts are found in the air. The minute you squeeze a grape, you are exposing the juice to the yeast that turns it into wine. The only way to keep juice from fermenting is to pastuerize it, which was invented in the 1800s.

It is true that sometimes juice was boiled down, expensively, to make syrup. It is true they could have climbed mountains and placed grapes in perma-frost and used it like a freezer. That someone today could think up ways to preserve grapes back then doesn't mean they did.
 
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Der Alte

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Begin quote
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. You are so obsessed about the issues of social drinking you are allowing yourself to believe things that have nothing to do with reality. You just said something totally contradictory to reality.

Grapes naturally are covered in yeast on the vine. Yeasts are found in the air. The minute you squeeze a grape, you are exposing the juice to the yeast that turns it into wine. The only way to keep juice from fermenting is to pastuerize it, which was invented in the 1800s.

It is true that sometimes juice was boiled down, expensively, to make syrup. It is true they could have climbed mountains and placed grapes in perma-frost and used it like a freezer. That someone today could think up ways to preserve grapes back then doesn't mean they did
.
In support of your post. Several years ago my first wife passed away. There was most of a large bottle of Welch's in the back of our refrigerator which she drank but I did not care for. 4-5 months after her passing I happened to see the juice so I took it out and when I opened it there was an audible "poong." That was some "good" grape juice. It had sat there in my refrigerator and fermented into wine all by itself.
 
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7 REAS0JS WHY JESUS CHANGED WATER INTO FERMENTED WINE:
(1) The wedding steward implies that, as usual his guests had gotten drunk.
The steward identifies the normal pattern as serving the best wine first, so that, after the guests start to get drunk, they can no longer tell the difference between good and inferior wine.

(2) By celebrating the fact that the best wine has been saved for last, the steward in implying that the new wine is just as alcoholic as the old. He would have been horrified if grape juice was passed off as wine.

(3) In the Cana story, the Greek is the word for "wine," not "unfermented grape juice."
In the ancient world, there was no way of preserving grape juice to make it drinkable, apart from fermentation.

(4) Because Jesus drinks with the boys, he is accused of being a "drunk (Luke 7:33)." This slander is based in Jesus' drinking habits with sinners! Jesus also drinks wine at the Last Supper. following Jewish Passover customs.

(5) Jesus uses fermented wine in a positive way as a metaphor for His kingdom teaching (Mark 2:22--note His reference to the fementation gas bursting the wineskin.).

(6) Despite the warnings against drunkenness, the Bible approves of drinking booze long enough to numb one's memory to emotional pain:
"Give wine to him who is in bitter distress; and let him drink and forget his troubles and remember them no more (Proverbs 31:6)." The Bible teaches moderation, not abstinence. For many, legalism damages the Gospel's appeal.

(7) Paul laments the unbalanced habit of drinking only water and urges the consumption of alcoholic wine for medicinal purposes:
"No longer drink only water, but drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments (1 Timothy 5:23)."
 
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