GOD'S LAW AND THE SABBATH AND FOLLOWING MAN MADE TRADTIONS?

Bob S · Nov 1, 2017

bekkilyn said:
SDA seems to now be preaching salvation by faith through grace alone, but this concept does also seem to conflict with the idea that observing Saturday Sabbath is *mandatory* for salvation. I think at some point down the line, the SDA church is going to need to decide how they will resolve that conflict because it really can't go both ways.

I pray that they will find the truth about the Sabbath and all the other doctrines from scripture and not from the thousands of pages from a woman who suffered a very dangerous and debilitating head wound as a child. See her own writings on the subject 1Testamonies 9-1 to 1t 13-3 in egwwritings.org

bekkilyn · Nov 1, 2017

Bob S said:
Oh but the SDA church does teach that there is a Hell. Their Hell is just hotter than those who believe in eternal punishment. The church does believe in degrees of punishment in Hell. Read what the revered prophet wrote on the subject:

"But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression—“the wages of sin.” They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, “according to their works,” but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: “Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” And another declares: “They shall be as though they had not been.” Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion." {GC 544.2}

I suppose I should amend it to say not an *eternal* hell. They believe that after the 1000 year millennium, the unbelievers will be raised from the dead and believers will then sit in judgment with Christ to determine the punishment of these unbelievers. There will be different levels of punishment based on their deeds, but then once the punishment is complete, then they will be destroyed and will then no longer exist. The punishment does not go on eternally.

They do not believe in a soul separate from the body, so if a person is dead, the body is in a sleep state, and there is no separate soul to either be in heaven or in hell. Once the bodies of unbelievers are resurrected and those bodies are permanently destroyed, those people simply cease to exist as if they never existed, because souls do not exist outside of the bodies according to SDA doctrine. This is the second death described in your quote above.

omega2xx · Nov 1, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
As you are unlikely to get a straight answer.....

According to 'official' (sometimes) sda doctrine, you go to hell if you do not observe a set Saturday Sabbath. However, the sda church accepts as Christians those who do not observe a set Saturday Sabbath.
Confusing?
I wouldn't blame you for thinking that!

I was told b y a SDA in another forum, that if I ate pork and did not observe "Saturday Sabbath I was going to hell.

Evidently they don understand he requirement for becoming a Christian. I also believe they reject eternal security. How sad,

stuart lawrence · Nov 1, 2017

omega2xx said:
I was told b y a SDA in another forum, that if I ate pork and did not observe "Saturday Sabbath I was going to hell.

Evidently they don understand he requirement for becoming a Christian. I also believe they reject eternal security. How sad,

In my experience, the internet is rife with people, in all denominations who don't understand the requirement to become a Christian.
And the problem, as I see it, for people who insist the law/TC must be obeyed to attain to heaven is, in reality, this concerns law the Pharisees of Jesus day could faultlessly obey.
The law that can be seen by man is faultlessly obeyed, but the law relating to the inner man cannot be faultlessly obeyed. In fact, biblically speaking, the harder you try to attain heaven by observing the law, the more corrupted you become on the inside. Indeed, in my experience, the more adamant you are that heaven hinges on observing the law, the less you reflect in your life what Christ termed the higher points of the law. Its all related, as Paul explained so well

Kenny'sID · Nov 1, 2017

omega2xx said:
THE Bible clearly says the Sabbath is ONLY shadow.

Or does it?

omega2xx said:
THE Bible clearly says the Sabbath is ONLY shadow. Any theology that rejects that, clearly. Can't be the truth. If you understood figurative language , you would know that a passage or even a word can be both literal and figurative. They are allegory, symbolic, parables, etc. The literal story of Sarah and Hagar is called an allegory(Gal 4:24).

Not sure why you're seeing that when it actually says all that it says and not just the part you say it says.

Tale a look at the verse here in this post:

omega2xx said:
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink(something SDA do saying it is a sin to eat pork or drink an alcoholic beverage)or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a SABBATH DAY, things which are a mere SHADOW of what is to come ; but the substance belongs to Christ.

It's really saying "it's only a shadow of what is to come". So first off:

It's not even close to just saying its a shadow, but a shadow of things to come, two completely different statements.

So, what exactly does the verse, in full context, mean to you?

And I'm not sure why you are pushing the "only part" to mean Sabbath is unimportant...guess I'm just saying there is no scripture to back up the "only" part there means what you seem to be pushing it to mean. That is unless you can provide something?

If I can please get the answer to those 2 questions, I'll comment further.

Kenny'sID · Nov 1, 2017

Bob S said:
Read what the revered prophet wrote on the subject:

Thanks for posting that, I really like that scripture. Not sure what translation that is, but it could potentially answer a lot of questions for a lot of people. A to the point, clear rundown that seems exactly as I have come to understand it.

However I don't see where is dismisses a hot Hell?

christianforumsuser · Nov 1, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
In my experience, the internet is rife with people, in all denominations who don't understand the requirement to become a Christian.
And the problem, as I see it, for people who insist the law/TC must be obeyed to attain to heaven is, in reality, this concerns law the Pharisees of Jesus day could faultlessly obey.
The law that can be seen by man is faultlessly obeyed, but the law relating to the inner man cannot be faultlessly obeyed. In fact, biblically speaking, the harder you try to attain heaven by observing the law, the more corrupted you become on the inside. Indeed, in my experience, the more adamant you are that heaven hinges on observing the law, the less you reflect in your life what Christ termed the higher points of the law. Its all related, as Paul explained so well

stuarrt litle, They accused Jesus but did they accuse David for eating the showbread
The men clearly have a bias already, else they would try to make excuses defending someone
They thought Jesus should be below them as He did not have riches they recognized and of no use they could see but only a threat
They thought they were the most worthy and righteous, but did not have His righteousness.
Did He and His disciples sin against their culture or do anything wrong?
How can sinful men accuse a woman of adultery?
Don't you know about love and grace? Or are you in the Old Testament and under the Law...yet worse you refuse or don't know about mercy and sacrifice? As if just anyone can become a priest these days
Does carnal man consider himself a worldly king to compete with Jesus Christ?
The daily sacrifices were a shadow...a shadow of the things to come...the Law was for the knowledge of sin. Are you a teacher of the Jews and don't know these things nor believe? Do you not know that a man must be born again of water and Spirit?
But what are these mysteries and why do people love continuing tradition and debates when they're offered salvation and learning? They're so busy eating and drinking and marrying. As if I'm an animal and not you. Isn't it only God who can judge? Why are we born amidst this

stuart lawrence · Nov 1, 2017

christianforumsuser said:
stuarrt litle,
Don't you know about love and grace? Or are you in the Old Testament and under the Law...yet worse you refuse or don't know about mercy and sacrifice? As if just anyone can become a priest these days

I wouldn't presume to have the understanding you have

christianforumsuser · Nov 1, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I wouldn't presume to have the understanding you have

Even if someone understands a little bit, it's from God and His Word for use, not to withhold or sell.
I feel like I've barely known anyone or anything. God's Word is full of so much, but when someone is desperate they might see how lacking they are and pray for what they could only dream of. The remission of sin is important now. To receive the Holy Spirit to a sinless heart by God's will and Word.
There's lots of disagreements and grudges, but there's answers each man needs to accept.

Bob S · Nov 1, 2017

christianforumsuser said:
stuarrt litle, They accused Jesus but did they accuse David for eating the showbread
The men clearly have a bias already, else they would try to make excuses defending someone
They thought Jesus should be below them as He did not have riches they recognized and of no use they could see but only a threat
They thought they were the most worthy and righteous, but did not have His righteousness.
Did He and His disciples sin against their culture or do anything wrong?
How can sinful men accuse a woman of adultery?
Don't you know about love and grace? Or are you in the Old Testament and under the Law...yet worse you refuse or don't know about mercy and sacrifice? As if just anyone can become a priest these days
Does carnal man consider himself a worldly king to compete with Jesus Christ?
The daily sacrifices were a shadow...a shadow of the things to come...the Law was for the knowledge of sin. Are you a teacher of the Jews and don't know these things nor believe? Do you not know that a man must be born again of water and Spirit?
But what are these mysteries and why do people love continuing tradition and debates when they're offered salvation and learning? They're so busy eating and drinking and marrying. As if I'm an animal and not you. Isn't it only God who can judge? Why are we born amidst this

One thing for sure, you vented.

stuart lawrence · Nov 1, 2017

christianforumsuser said:
Even if someone understands a little bit, it's from God and His Word for use, not to withhold or sell.
I feel like I've barely known anyone or anything. God's Word is full of so much, but when someone is desperate they might see how lacking they are and pray for what they could only dream of. The remission of sin is important now. To receive the Holy Spirit to a sinless heart by God's will and Word.
There's lots of disagreements and grudges, but there's answers each man needs to accept.

Your opening words in your previous post to me, shows where your knowledge is at: stuarrt little,

christianforumsuser · Nov 1, 2017

Bob S said:
One thing for sure, you vented.

Talking about Scripture, very important
Should be better at names, not think of movies

klutedavid · Nov 1, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
I seriously doubt it, at least I hope not. That stuff, as far as I know never was a damnable sin, they were health ordinances. I adhere to nothing but the commandments best I can/best I do, something that always was and always will be important.

There are several verses in the NT that repeat the commandments, even expand on them, and they specifically say if we do those things on a regular, non caring basis, we will not see the kingdom of God or the like. They say nothing about unclean food, how we are to dress, how we are to wash and such.

Jesus said to follow the commandments, and as far as I know wasn't concerned with ordinances in the least, when it comes to salvation.

Hello Kenny.

Not sure that I understand your post.

There are several verses in the NT that repeat the commandments, even expand on them, and they specifically say if we do those things on a regular, non caring basis, we will not see the kingdom of God or the like.

So we are to obey the commandments, but which ones?

Here is one list of sins, you will no doubt see a commandment.

Galatians 5:20
Idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.

I can see 'idolatry' mentioned but I also see 'sorcery', Kenny.

So if in the list of Galatians 5:20, idolatry is a commandment, then so is sorcery obviously.

So is the ordinance against sorcery in Deuteronomy actually a commandment?

Is the apostle telling us to obey the ten commandments in Galatians 5:20?

If Paul is saying obey the ten commandments in Galatians 5:20, then he did a dreadful job of saying that.

Kenny'sID · Nov 2, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Kenny.

Not sure that I understand your post.

So we are to obey the commandments, but which ones?

Here is one list of sins, you will no doubt see a commandment.

Galatians 5:20
Idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.

I can see 'idolatry' mentioned but I also see 'sorcery', Kenny.

So if in the list of Galatians 5:20, idolatry is a commandment, then so is sorcery obviously.

So is the ordinance against sorcery in Deuteronomy actually a commandment?

Is the apostle telling us to obey the ten commandments in Galatians 5:20?

If Paul is saying obey the ten commandments in Galatians 5:20, then he did a dreadful job of saying that.

Hello klute, and I'm not really sure what point your making? Because there are those additional rules or ordinances as you call them that will keep us out of heaven, we don't need to keep all the commandments?

In answer to your direct question...all of the commandments, and I personally would try to obey those additions you mention since it does say not doing so means we won't see the Kingdom of god, or the like. the scripture there is clear/undeniable.

Not that hard for me to understand. we are being told not to do specific things and if we do them without repentance, we are in trouble, that simple. And I'm dead serious when I say it's very easy to get that out of the bible. I'm convinced some just don't want to see it and I'm at a loss on what to do about that...just keep pushing it, I guess.

klutedavid said:
If Paul is saying obey the ten commandments in Galatians 5:20, then he did a dreadful job of saying that.

Where did I indicate that's what he was saying? My comment on that was clear. Here is what I said, and there was nothing about my saying Paul was saying anything about the commandments specifically. Did I even name that scripture? much less make that claim about it.

There are several verses in the NT that repeat the commandments, even expand on them, and they specifically say if we do those things on a regular, non caring basis, we will not see the kingdom of God or the like. They say nothing about unclean food, how we are to dress, how we are to wash and such.

klutedavid · Nov 2, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Hello klute, and I'm not really sure what point your making? Because there are those additional rules or ordinances as you call them that will keep us out of heaven, we don't need to keep all the commandments?

In answer to your direct question...all of the commandments, and I personally would try to obey those additions you mention since it does say not doing so means we won't see the Kingdom of god, or the like. the scripture there is clear/undeniable.

Not that hard for me to understand. we are being told not to do specific things and if we do them without repentance, we are in trouble, that simple. And I'm dead serious when I say it's very easy to get that out of the bible. I'm convinced some just don't want to see it and I'm at a loss on what to do about that...just keep pushing it, I guess.

Where did I indicate that's what he was saying? My comment on that was clear. Here is what I said, and there was nothing about my saying Paul was saying anything about the commandments specifically. Did I even name that scripture? much less make that claim about it.

There are several verses in the NT that repeat the commandments, even expand on them, and they specifically say if we do those things on a regular, non caring basis, we will not see the kingdom of God or the like. They say nothing about unclean food, how we are to dress, how we are to wash and such.

Hello Kenny.

So we can be on the same page, how about you indicate what commandments Paul and John are referring to?

LoveGodsWord · Nov 2, 2017

omega2xx said:
Since there is no commandment to attend a religious service on any day of the week, it is the SDA who are following the traditions of men. Since you judge other about what they eat and drink, you are following the tradition of men. Ami I going to hell for not keeping Saturday Sabbath? Yes or no.

There are scriptures already provide for you but you have chosen not to see them. None of us will enter into God's Kingdom if we are living a life in unrepentant sin.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 2, 2017

Bob S said:
Yes, there is plenty of scripture that tells Christians that we are not under the law.

Depends what you mean by being "Under the Law" what does it mean to you?

God's Word says in that context to be "Under the Law" means to be guilty before God of sin which is breaking God's Law (Romans 2:12-13; Romans 3:9; Romans 3:19; 1 John 3:4)

LoveGodsWord · Nov 2, 2017

Bob S said:
One of the most obvious is 2Cor3:7-11 where Paul is explaining the new covenant. In those verses it is quite obvious the topic is the 10 commandments and Paul is explaining that the 10 are no longer the guide. Jews were trying to impose the law on new Christian believers and Paul was setting them straight.

Let’s look at 2 Cor 3:7-11 in context to the rest of the chapter?

v6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament (Covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life.
v7, But if the ministration of death, written and graven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
v8, How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
v9, For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
v10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
v11, For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
v12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
v13, And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
v14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
v15, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16, Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Lets’ put it all together….

v6-7 What is the ministration of death graven in stone? It is God’s Law (10 commandments; Exodus 20:1-17; 31:18; 32:16). Why were they called the ministration of death? Because God’s Law (10 commandments) give the knowledge of sin and righteousness but makes nothing perfect (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7; Hebrews 7:19 ). God’s Law only shows what sin is and if broken, the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). v8-10 It was to teach us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour and that all the world may become guilty before God (Romans 3:10; 19; Isaiah 64:6). It leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28). v10-17 The glory of the one passes to the glory of the other (Law to Christ). They both work together to bring the sinner to salvation. It is the glory of the one (God’s Law) that supersedes the Glory of the other because God’s Law leads the sinner to the Saviour (Galatians 3:24-25). The glory has been done away not God’s Law. God’s Law is perfect and is forever but makes nothing perfect it is the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (Ecclesiastes 3:14) but makes nothing perfect. Faith that works by love through walking in the Spirit is the new ministration when someone is born again.

This is the difference between the true Gospel and the counterfeit. The counterfeit Gospel is one that tries to separate God’s Law from the cross but without God’s Law no one has the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7; Hebrews 7:19). Who should we believe God or man?

LoveGodsWord · Nov 2, 2017

Bob S said:
Did the 10 commandments teach all things? It didn't even have a command to love, the greatest command according to Jesus our Savior.

Well it does the two great ones are summed up with all of God's Law and the prophets but these two commandments are not new they originated from the Old Testament summing up God's Law and this is where Jesus was quoting from. (Matthew 22:36-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) and this the promise of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12)

Bob S said:
Allow the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts and He will teach us all things. Does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone to start observing the 4th commandment.

The Holy Spirit is not separate from God's Word they are one. God's Word tells us that if someone is living in a life of known unrepentant sin they do not have God's Spirit and do not know God (Hebrews 10:26-27; Acts 5:32; 1 John 2:2-4)

Bob S said:
Well, we can plainly read that the 10 commandments with its ritual Sabbath sandwiched in the middle is not the Christian's guide and those that tell us differently are ignoring what is so very revealing. Sin IS transgression of the law, but where there is no law there is no sin. The 10 have faded away and the Holy Spirit teaching the law of love has taken its place. The law of love is that great theme of the New Testament. Our new covenant law covers all sins not just nine.

I think God's Word would disagree with you Bob, because God's Law is the standard in the OT and the NT and the judgement to come. It gives all a knowledge of what sin is and righteousness (good and evil) (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; Ex 20:1-17; Hebrews 8:10-12; James 2:8-12).

If you have no Law you have no knowledge of sin. If you have no knowledge of sin you have no need of a Saviour. If you have no need of a Saviour you have no need of salvation. If you have no need of salvation you are lost and still in your sins and do not know God. (1 John 3:3-9).

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Romans 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15). He that says I know him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4) Obedience to God’s Law is the fruit of faith that works by love and fulfils God's Law in us who walk in the Spirit (Romans 8:1-4)

Sunday worship is a tradition of man that breaks the commandments of God. Who should we believe God or man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?. Jesus says if we follow the traditions of man over the Word of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

May God bless you as you seek him though His Word.

LoveGodsWord · Nov 2, 2017

Almost there said:
This may explain it:
How is Jesus our Sabbath Rest?

For me this is the main reason for the OP. Who should we point people to, the teachings of man or the Word of God. In the last days we are told there will be many false teachers to deceive if possible God's very elect. Should we be pointing people to the teachings of men that break the commandments of God, or the Word of God?

GOD'S LAW AND THE SABBATH AND FOLLOWING MAN MADE TRADTIONS?

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