Is the Church raptured? OR do we FLEE to a place of safety!? Find out!

random person · Mar 19, 2016

JLB777 said:
Pure Heresy.

Nothing happened in 70 AD, except the City and Sanctuary were destroyed.

The Olivet discourse mentions nothing of the events of 70 AD.

The Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 are Jesus teaching from Zechariah about the end of the age, when He come with the saints from Heaven to receive their resurrection bodies.

The Resurrection of the dead in Christ is the Resurrection of the physically dead bodies.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

Those who teach Heresy, are Heretics, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Heresies are list among the works of the flesh, as those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

The Olivet Discourse is Jesus teaching about the day of the Lord from Zechariah.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord— Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7

Preterism is Heresy.

JLB

the mount of olives was split by a roman road this passage is symbolic of the red sea exodus citing the christian exodus from jerusalem in the 1st century.

check out the distance between the dome of the rock (foreground) and the mount of olives (background):

the roman road circa a 1890-1900 photograph:

Mount-of-Olives-and-Gethsemane.-1890-1900.-Photochrome-Print.jpg

an earthquake of such a magnitude would literally level jerusalem and how would survivors, if there were any, flee through the valley left in its wake?

JLB777 · Mar 19, 2016

random person said:
the mount of olives was split by a roman road this passage is symbolic of the red sea exodus citing the christian exodus from jerusalem in the 1st century.

check out the distance between the dome of the rock (foreground) and the mount of olives (background):

the roman road circa a 1890-1900 photograph:

an earthquake of such a magnitude would literally level jerusalem and how would survivors, if there were any, flee through the valley left in its wake?

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for hisonly son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

All of Israel will see the Son of Man when He comes and they will mourn for they will see with their eyes they had rejected the Messiah!!!

On that day, all Jews will turn to Him and no more deny Him as Lord and Messiah!!!

JLB

ewq1938 · Mar 19, 2016

JLB777 said:
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for hisonly son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

All of Israel will see the Son of Man when He comes and they will mourn for they will see with their eyes they had rejected the Messiah!!!

On that day, all Jews will turn to Him and no more deny Him as Lord and Messiah!!!

It doesn't show any conversions here just mourning.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Same thing happens to all people on the Earth when Christ returns but this is not a worldwide conversion to Christianity. The unsaved mourn because they are sad and scared.

Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

They all are about to experience the vials of God's wrath which Revelation describes. Many will die.
Revelation also says they refuse to repent.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

The only time I see where repentance might be possible is during the Millennium when Satan no longer can deceive those that refused Christ. But at the second coming Satan still has the power to deceive and that deception is so strong people refuse to repent even through the painful vials of God's wrath. So, the time for Jews or any non-Christian to repent and finally recognize the Messiah would be the Millennium.

Looking further into this, it looks like Zec 12:10 was fulfilled the day Christ died at least according to this verse:

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

So John states these two prophecies were done or fulfilled at that time.

JLB777 · Mar 19, 2016

ewq1938 said:
It doesn't show any conversions here just mourning.

I didn't say anything about conversions.

What you seem to not understand is, if all the Jews see Him and mourn, then Judaism would instantly cease.

As long as Judaism is still practiced, then Jesus has not come.

As long as people still marry and die, then Jesus hasn't come.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

Case Closed.

JLB

ewq1938 · Mar 19, 2016

JLB777 said:
I didn't say anything about conversions.

You said all Jews would accept Christ when he returns but the verse doesn't show anything like that plus John said that verse was already fulfilled long ago.

What you seem to not understand is, if all the Jews see Him and mourn, then Judaism would instantly cease.

No it wouldn't. The whole population will mourn when they see Jesus but that doesn't make everyone a Christian.

As long as Judaism is still practiced, then Jesus has not come.

As long as people still marry and die, then Jesus hasn't come.

No, the second coming doesn't end false religions or death or marriage.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

Case Closed.

No, that's a contextual fallacy. The verse is regarding those who die and are resurrected not anyone else.

random person · Mar 20, 2016

JLB777 said:
I didn't say anything about conversions.

What you seem to not understand is, if all the Jews see Him and mourn, then Judaism would instantly cease.

As long as Judaism is still practiced, then Jesus has not come.

As long as people still marry and die, then Jesus hasn't come.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

Case Closed.

JLB

wrong.

isaiah 65:17-24 (seed and offspring of christians will be blessed and god will answer their prayers before they ask them)
isaiah 66:22 (the name and seed of christians will remain)
isaiah 9:7 (the increase of his heavenly government shall see no end because christians will never cease being born and being added to the kingdom - age without end ephesians 3:21)

however when heaven/the kingdom receives them there will be no more marriages for they shall be like the angels and flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of god - john 18:36 + 1 corinthians 15:50 + 1 peter 1:4

random person · Mar 20, 2016

JLB777 said:
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for hisonly son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

All of Israel will see the Son of Man when He comes and they will mourn for they will see with their eyes they had rejected the Messiah!!!

On that day, all Jews will turn to Him and no more deny Him as Lord and Messiah!!!

JLB

the ones that mourn are the very ones that pierced him. matthew 27:25 + john 19:15 + matthew 23:32-36 + luke 11:49-51

god doesnt deliver the jews in a.d. 70 but judges them.

DennisTate · Mar 26, 2016

TomorrowsWorld said:
I find it amazing how confused so many are about what happens to Gods people prior to Christ's return! 1 cor 15:52 clearly says we're made perfect at the sound of the LAST TRUMPET! Which is rev 11:15. ....1 Thess 4:52 is also referring to this moment. The Church is NOT raptured prior to this!

Where does the Church go! Christ tells us to FLEE when we see the abomination of desolation! Where are we fleeing to? What is the abomination of desolation? If you Don't know what it is then how will you know to flee when it happens!?

Scripture promises that God’s most faithful people will be protected from the terrible events that will befall our world before Christ returns. Will you receive that protection?

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/telecasts/escape-the-great-tribulation#sthash.FUJvDwKs.dpuf

I think that you will enjoy reading some of this other discussion that I got going a couple of years ago:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/yom-kippur-the-rapture-connection.7647325/

Yom Kippur the Rapture Connection???
(This is in the Messianic Jewish forum so you may not be free to reply to this though)???
..This is just a theory and I may be wrong but after being highly skeptical of the idea of a rapture for most of my life I am now open to the idea that the Rapture could fit in extremely well with the ultimate fulfillment of the Fast of Yom Kippur.

I could not get my head around this idea until reading the NDE account of Dr. Richard Eby:

"He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you "might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth."

geneh43 · Oct 17, 2017

timewerx said:
The wicked men will be taken, not the good ones! The meek will inherit the Earth...

Matthew 24:38 - 39
For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man

Right, but the saved will be taken to heaven with Jesus for the 1000 years. After which Jesus will return to this Earth, notice there will be silence in heaven, and the saved and all of the angels will return with Him. Then the resurrection of the wicked will take place and sentence of the second death from which there will be no resurrection will be handed down. The bible stated plainly that Satan will be no more, and that the wicked will be ashes under our feet.

Hank77 · Oct 17, 2017

Linet Kihonge said:
Yes, 70 AD, Matthew 24:14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

By the end of the 1st century, Christianity had only spread to Rome and to various cities in Greece, Asia Minor and Syria. The map on 70 AD shows there was Africa, America, Europe and other countries.

Well, if Christ came back in 70 AD then v.14 is a DEAL BREAKER.

Only if one thinks that 'all the world' means all locations in the world.
For example...
Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, there went forth a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world be enrolled--
Luk 2:2 this enrolment first came to pass when Cyrenius was governor of Syria--

What location is Luke calling 'all the world', just the Roman Empire.

The Gospel of the Messiah had been preached to 'all the Roman Empire and beyond' to the Jews and the Gentiles a like. The world would be a witness to the rejection of the Gospel by the Jewish leaders, who kept others from entering into the Kingdom and their lies about Him which led to His death. Jerusalem is destroyed and Jews dispersed.
Luk 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;[Jerusalem]
Luk 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all things that have been written.

Hank77 · Oct 17, 2017

ewq1938 said:
The word rapture is in the bible but it's the Greek word for rapture since it was written in Greek not English.

Actually it's the Greek word for being 'caught up', correct?

ToBeLoved · Oct 17, 2017

JLB777 said:
I didn't say anything about conversions.

What you seem to not understand is, if all the Jews see Him and mourn, then Judaism would instantly cease.

As long as Judaism is still practiced, then Jesus has not come.

As long as people still marry and die, then Jesus hasn't come.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

Case Closed.

JLB

They would have to be reassurected.

Notice the words ‘sons of the resurrection’ in the last sentence.

They aren’t alive.

Hank77 · Oct 17, 2017

ewq1938 said:
Who was TAKEN out of Sodom?
Who was LEFT in Sodom?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Who was taken out of Jerusalem by Jesus' words to His followers?
Who was left in Jerusalem?
Who was taken to a safe place to live?
Who was left to die in an unsafe place?

JLB777 · Oct 18, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
They would have to be reassurected.

Notice the words ‘sons of the resurrection’ in the last sentence.

They aren’t alive.

Please explain how resurrected people are not alive?

ToBeLoved · Oct 19, 2017

JLB777 said:
Please explain how resurrected people are not alive?

Not alive in human terms of life and death.

JLB777 · Oct 19, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Not alive in human terms of life and death.

Not alive in human terms?

How else is a human being alive or dead, other than human terms?

Please explain how resurrected people are not alive?

Justme · Nov 1, 2017

I noticed I had made a reply to this directly to the opening post , a year ago. If I may I would like to butt in and post again!
In answer to the question...
Please explain how resurrected people are not alive?

A resurrected person is not PHYSICALLY alive as we are on earth right now. A resurrected person has experienced this:
2 COR 5:1
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

The person lives spiritually in the spiritual realm of heaven after their resurrection. Here is the death that has been destroyed by Jesus as explained in 2 Tim 1:10
10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

That is the death that ruled in the world as this verse explains:
Romans 5
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

So the 'LIVE' of these verses is not physically LIVING on earth , it is spiritual LIFE in heaven for eternity.

Martha would be on of the first to experience this as John 11:26 tells us...
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Martha LIVES her earthly life and physically dies, then she instantly begins LIVING her life in heaven... Martha NEVER DIES.

Justme

DennisTate · Nov 1, 2017

TomorrowsWorld said:
I find it amazing how confused so many are about what happens to Gods people prior to Christ's return! 1 cor 15:52 clearly says we're made perfect at the sound of the LAST TRUMPET! Which is rev 11:15. ....1 Thess 4:52 is also referring to this moment. The Church is NOT raptured prior to this!

Where does the Church go! Christ tells us to FLEE when we see the abomination of desolation! Where are we fleeing to? What is the abomination of desolation? If you Don't know what it is then how will you know to flee when it happens!?

Scripture promises that God’s most faithful people will be protected from the terrible events that will befall our world before Christ returns. Will you receive that protection?

Escape the Great Tribulation

I am a former member of the Worldwide Church of God myself. I got myself disfellowshipped back in 1991.

You will recognize the finger prints of Pastor General Herbert W. Armstrong on what I have been working on since then:

My conversation with the Rabbi.....

Should Christians support Rebuilding of Jerusalem Third Temple.

More in line with the opening post of your discussion would be:

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!

Is the Church raptured? OR do we FLEE to a place of safety!? Find out!

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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