A question about Paul

Qvashti

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It looks like first before anything else is a desire for the milk that the Corinthians didn't have.

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby

before desiring the meat of the Word

If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious

Those are the words of Peter but it's best to have things witnessed. Thank you everyone for helping with understanding this. Gb

Please continue to discuss but this has cleared up the question for me. Again thank you all for participating.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Why did he choose to know just only Christ and Him crufified? Why not Christ in ascention? Does this mean that he did teach elementary things?
HI Paul did not limit himself to Christ and Him crucified. He meant that this was the preeminent idea or the central issue. Paul certainly taught a great many things beyond this. He did teach the 2nd coming as well and indicated he believed Jesus had ascended to heaven until he returns. Paul considered himself a bond servant of Jesus for the spread of the gospel. The central issue of the gospel is the atoning for our sins on the cross. Paul taught Jesus was God and sinless God who was crucified. The Ressurection and promise of victory over sin and death is the other side of the coin which has Jesus crucified on the front.
 
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timewerx

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Why did he choose to know just only Christ and Him crufified? Why not Christ in ascention? Does this mean that he did teach elementary things?

If you think of Paul as a modern-day preacher, having good intentions in a subjective sense but not perfect and still very flawed as the rest of us, that answers your question.
 
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Anguspure

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Why did he choose to know just only Christ and Him crufified? Why not Christ in ascention?
In order to avoid eloquence or human wisdom as He proclaimed to them the testimony about God.
Does this mean that he did teach elementary things?
His message and his preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that thier faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
 
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Qvashti

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Obviously St. Paul preached the entire message of Christ and His Gospel, not just that Jesus died--but that the Lord lived, died, was buried, and rose, ascended, is seated at the right hand of the Father from whence He shall come again--all these things are found in St. Paul's writings.

What the Apostle means is the message of the cross, its revolutionary scandal and "foolishness" to the world. It is precisely as he said earlier in the same letter, "For we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greek" and that "Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" and also that Christ is "the power of God and the wisdom of God. For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength."

Paul did not come as a philosopher or rhetorician, he came as a preacher of the cross, proclaiming Jesus who died and who rose, he came as a "fool" for Christ because in the "foolishness" of the Gospel is the power and wisdom of God.

-CryptoLutheran
-CryptoLutheran said:
Paul did not come as a philosopher or rhetorician, he came as a preacher of the cross, proclaiming Jesus who died and who rose, he came as a "fool" for Christ because in the "foolishness" of the Gospel is the power and wisdom of God.

I have to admit this post was giving me problems fitting in with my conclusions. The message of the cross as foolishness. How does that fit in with the Corinthians not even desiring the milk of the word?

What is being called foolishness is the word of the cross. "That in everything you were enriched in Him, in all utterance and all knowledge," is foolishness to those perishing. The saved honor the message of the cross as the central core of salvation. Those full of philosphy should seek the wisdom of the cross because that type of wisdom is going to be destryed. Just the wisdom of the cross will remain.

Isaiah 33:18
Your heart will meditate on terror: Where is he who counts? Where is he who weighs? Where is he who counts the towers?

But it pleased God that the message of the cross believed is able to save family units like it did starting with Noah (Peter said it is to be baptised) Rahab, Cornelius, Lydia and the jailers family. Foolishness can have devastating effects.

Human wisdom needs great outer show of knowledge but Christ crucified was weak, despised and rejected. A stumbling block to many. Even though He is the One they needed to solve all the problems that the Corinthians were encountering.

The Israelis were called and the gentiles appointed. The rejection of the cross proved them to be unworthy of the eternal life. God's Wisdom has planned it that way and God's Power carries out His Wisdom. Both are found in Christ.

Wiser than any philosophy is the foolishness of God. If foolishness were a game this is how God would have stacked the deck. He has the upper hand because no strength against His can stand. To try to do so is exalting self against the knowledge of Christ. God has choosen what is best and to try to accomplish anything in any other way is foolishness. It's the Lord who exalts, giving a new creation not in keeping with former things. The transferance from the old Adam to thre new Adam through the means of the cross has no room for boasting.

Is that what you meant @ViaCrucis that Paul was being a fool for Christ?

PS. I have to admit that part of this post includes much of the elementary that is to be left behind in carrying on to the meat of the word according to the book of Hebrews so in that I appologise.

Which brings me to the further conclusion that meat consists only that which salvation is made of and to waste time arguing about anything else is foolishness. Maybe that is the place where Christians are posted? Foolishness would be to leave your post as the fallen angels did? Maybe satan's boasting confused them and muddied the waters.
 
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ViaCrucis

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A quote attributed to Tertullian is "Credo quia absurdum", "I believe because it is absurd". Christianity is thoroughly ridiculous, so ridiculous that it is either true and worthy of our entire devotion, or else so utterly and totally false that it is without any merit whatsoever.

The Jew says, "A crucified messiah? That's a false messiah, it's rubbish." The Greek says, "A man rising from the dead? That's utter nonsense."

The Christian says Christ has died and been raised up from the dead, and by this God is saving the entire world--believe the good news.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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St_Worm2

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How does that fit in with the Corinthians not even desiring the milk of the word?
Hi Qvashti, Paul mentions that many of the Christians in Corinth were living in sin and were therefore unable to receive anything more than the basics of the faith ("milk") from him, but where does Paul talk about their lack of desire for even that much?

Concerning the idea of foolishness (and along with the passage from 1 Corinthians that CL has referred to in his last two posts), I added another passage below for your consideration which describes/juxtaposes Christians, as those who are indwelt & led by the Spirit/have the mind of Christ, v12-13, 15-16, with his description of non-Christians, or "natural" men/women v14 .. those who Paul later describes as "mere men" in v3:3 .. in comparison with "spiritual men" v3:1.

1 Corinthians 1
18 The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 2
12 We have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Yours and His,
David

Romans 1
16 I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
.
 
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Qvashti

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Hi Qvashti, Paul mentions that many of the Christians in Corinth were living in sin and were therefore unable to receive anything more than the basics of the faith ("milk") from him, but where does Paul talk about their lack of desire for even that much?

Concerning the idea of foolishness (and along with the passage from 1 Corinthians that CL has referred to in his last two posts), I added another passage below for your consideration which describes/juxtaposes Christians, as those who are indwelt & led by the Spirit/have the mind of Christ, v12-13, 15-16, with his description of non-Christians, or "natural" men/women v14 .. those who Paul later describes as "mere men" in v3:3 .. in comparison with "spiritual men" v3:1.

1 Corinthians 1
18 The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 2
12 We have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Yours and His,
David

Romans 1
16 I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
.
Lack of desire for the knowledge of the cross rather than lack of enthusiasm for other aspects of church. The power's only at the cross but their desire was elswhere. Only part of Corinthians art of the condition that was rebuked so badly. Wordkeeper's post might be an easier way of discribing it.
Different teaching for different people. The church at Corinthians was immature so they were only going to deal with milk food, basic teachings in their studies with Paul.


It seems like those who baptised the believers in Corinth were hasty in laying on of hands. They received the sign gifts and were using them in a power play. So Paul concentrated on the picking up the Cross phase of the Christian life, exposing ourselves to the attack of those we witness to, because it should be God who should deliver us (resurrect us) from those attacks.


Yes, to the immature. Among the mature, he taught wisdom, meat food, maybe how our treasure will be seeing our loved ones, our crowns, with us in glory, saved because we lay down our lives for them. Literally and figuratively.
Different teaching for different people. The church at Corinthians was immature so they were only going to deal with milk food, basic teachings in their studies with Paul.


It seems like those who baptised the believers in Corinth were hasty in laying on of hands. They received the sign gifts and were using them in a power play. So Paul concentrated on the picking up the Cross phase of the Christian life, exposing ourselves to the attack of those we witness to, because it should be God who should deliver us (resurrect us) from those attacks.


Yes, to the immature. Among the mature, he taught wisdom, meat food, maybe how our treasure will be seeing our loved ones, our crowns, with us in glory, saved because we lay down our lives for them. Literally and figuratively.
 
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Qvashti

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A quote attributed to Tertullian is "Credo quia absurdum", "I believe because it is absurd". Christianity is thoroughly ridiculous, so ridiculous that it is either true and worthy of our entire devotion, or else so utterly and totally false that it is without any merit whatsoever.

The Jew says, "A crucified messiah? That's a false messiah, it's rubbish." The Greek says, "A man rising from the dead? That's utter nonsense."

The Christian says Christ has died and been raised up from the dead, and by this God is saving the entire world--believe the good news.

-CryptoLutheran
Yes that is the paradox. :)
 
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Wordkeeper

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The Kingdom of God came to manifest the fruit, the phenomena of God's power glorified through weakness!

The Corinthian church received the gifts that confirmed this phenomena, but they thought that the fruit of the kingdom was the power! Reminds us of the health and wealth Gospel?

Paul's ministry was a corrective ministry.
 
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Qvashti

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The Kingdom of God came to manifest the fruit, the phenomena of God's power glorified through weakness!

The Corinthian church received the gifts that confirmed this phenomena, but they thought that the fruit of the kingdom was the power! Reminds us of the health and wealth Gospel?

Paul's ministry was a corrective ministry.
Was it a division of power and glory? Or rather is the power in His glory seen in the results of preaching be the more definative term? Corrective in what way?
 
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Qvashti

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Was it a division of power and glory? Or rather is the power in His glory seen in the results of preaching be the more definative term? Corrective in what way?
Can you answer all of these questions individually again if you don't mind.
 
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Ken Rank

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Why did he choose to know just only Christ and Him crufified? Why not Christ in ascention? Does this mean that he did teach elementary things?
I think the idea of him using "Christ crucified" is somewhat idiomatic for Paul. Not saying the crucifixion isn't literally... obviously it was. But what does the crucifixion, death and resurrection, pave the way for? What I am getting at is there are all sorts of prophesies that are still open, that are in need of fulfillment and Christ being crucified was the key that allows all those prophesies to be able to come to pass. This includes the writing of the law directly on the mind and heart rather than one stone, the redemption of Israel from the nations, the perfecting of the saints, and so forth. All that (and much more) can now happen because of Christ being crucified. So I don't think Paul stops there, I think he is starting there and going forward and out religious culture has turned his statement into really less than what it is.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Was it a division of power and glory?
God gave Moses gifts so that the message that repenting, turning from serving Egypt to serving God would be beneficial, effective, powerful (I literally mean this: getting into the Promised Land is like a superhero getting in touch with the source of his powers! Israel wept when displaced to Babylon. She couldn't sing the Lord's song, in a strange land. The foreigners imported into Jerusalem were killed by lions till they learnt how to worship God. Then they too were blessed. Also remember, the Ark blessed those who were it's caretakers.).

However, those who entered Rest had to learn how to worship God: die to themselves. Every time they died to themselves, God's power was manifested, they were raised. The sign gifts were given to give additional confirmation to this message. However, the Corinthians were using the sign gifts not to glorify God, but to compete with each other. Can a person use a gift without glorifying God through weakness, through displaying dependency on God, the message? Sure, the opportunist who drove out demons in Jesus name was doing that. But his judgment would be based on whether he turned people to God or to himself, as would people like Simon the Sorcerer:

Mark 9:38
38John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40“For he who is not against us is for us.

Are prosperity Gospel preachers righteous? Let's examine their actions. God's message is that if you stop serving the world and start serving Him by sharing the message, the message that serving the world resulted in a temporary solution to hunger and want, but serving God would result in treasure in heaven, as well as meeting of daily needs. Of course this results in attacks, both physical and verbal, but God raises up daily, those who pick up their cross daily. Else how could you pick up your cross daily! In addition to being able to defeat your opponents in discussions, He also gives sign gifts, like He gave to Moses, so that the listeners would know that God is with you.

What prosperity Gospel teachers do is to preach that if you plant a seed, a thousand dollars, it will be multiplied a hundred times, because we belong to a rich Father, who is testing our sincerity. Jesus came so we would be healthy, wealthy and wise!

Or rather is the power in His glory seen in the results of preaching be the more definative term?

Paul wanted to teach that the confirmation follows the message: the power, the efficacy, of weakness, expressed in picking up the Cross. The world will picks up a sword, but Christ picked up a cross, subdued His ego, gave primacy to God. The truth of the message is confirmed with the gifts, signs and wonders. At the Cross the confirmation was a literal Resurrection.

The Corinthian believers were flaunting their gifts. Without conveying the message. At the judgment, they were heading to hear the words: Depart from me you breakers of my (Christ's) law, I never knew you,

Corrective in what way?

Paul would sort them out: No displaying gifts without manifesting the Cross.

Summary
This is the correct way:

Die to yourself, pick the Cross, follow Christ: share the unpopular message, confirm with signs, still be rejected, be raised up by God.

The wrong way:

Gather together, prove to others you have more and better gifts from God than others.
 
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Qvashti

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I think the idea of him using "Christ crucified" is somewhat idiomatic for Paul. Not saying the crucifixion isn't literally... obviously it was. But what does the crucifixion, death and resurrection, pave the way for? What I am getting at is there are all sorts of prophesies that are still open, that are in need of fulfillment and Christ being crucified was the key that allows all those prophesies to be able to come to pass. This includes the writing of the law directly on the mind and heart rather than one stone, the redemption of Israel from the nations, the perfecting of the saints, and so forth. All that (and much more) can now happen because of Christ being crucified. So I don't think Paul stops there, I think he is starting there and going forward and out religious culture has turned his statement into really less than what it is.
Except he said he chose to only know that.
 
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Qvashti

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God gave Moses gifts so that the message that repenting, turning from serving Egypt to see ng God would be beneficial, effective, powerful (I literally mean this: getting into the Promised Land is like a superhero getting in touch with the source of his powers! Israel wept when displaced to Babylon. She couldn't sing the Lord's song, in a strange land. The foreigners imported into Jerusalem were killed by lions till they learnt how to worship God. Then they too were blessed. Also remember, the Ark blessed those who were it's caretakers.). However, those who entered Rest had to learn how to worship God: die to themselves. Every time they died to themselves, God's power was manifested, they were raised. The sign gifts were given to give additional confirmation to this message. However, the Corinthians were using the sign gifts not to glorify God, but to compete with each other. Can a person use a gift without glorifying God through weakness, through displaying dependency on God, the message. Sure, the opportunist who drove out demons in Jesus name was doing that. But his judgment would be based on whether he turned people to God or to himself:

Mark 9:38
38John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40“For he who is not against us is for us.

Are prosperity Gospel preachers righteous? Let's examine their actions. God's message is that if you stop serving the world and start serving Him by sharing the message, that serving the world resulted in a temporary solution to hunger and want, but serving God would result in treasure in heaven, as well as meeting of daily needs. Of course this results in attacks, both physical and verbal, but God raises those daily, who pick up their cross daily. Else how could you pick up your cross daily! In addition to being able to defeat your opponents in discussions, he also gives sign gifts, like He gave to Moses, so that the listened will know that good is with you.

What prosperity Gospel teachers do is to preach that if you plant a seed, a thousand dollars, it will be multiplied a hundred times, because we belong to a rich Father, who is testing our sincerity. Jesus came so we would be healthy, wealthy and wise!



Christ wanted to teach that the confirmation follows the message: the power,the efficacy, of weakness, expressed in picking up the Cross. The world will picks up a sword, but Christ picked up a cross, subdued His ego, gave primacy to God. The truth of the message is confirmed with the gifts, signs and wonders. At the Cross the confirmation was a literal Resurrection.

The Corinthian believers were flaunting their gifts. Without conveying the message. At the judgment, they were heading to hear the words: Depart from me you breakers of my law, I never knew you,



Paul would sort them out: No displaying gifs without manifesting the Cross.
Ok thanks for your reply.
 
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mukk_in

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Why did he choose to know just only Christ and Him crufified? Why not Christ in ascention? Does this mean that he did teach elementary things?
I think that the Apostle was focused on the sacrifice and atonement provided us by the Lord's crucifixion. The Lord could have simply escaped the cross and ascended to heaven, but then we'd all be lost. So in Paul's view crucifixion and atonement was more important than, and preceded, resurrection. I don't think that he was simple minded (the complexity of Romans 7 supports that view). Peace in Christ :).
 
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Qvashti

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Because Paul's teaching involves atonement plus the waving of the firstfruit that resulted in propitiation that finished the plan of God, less glorification, then is it safe to say that the bulk of his teaching was aimed at the meaning of salvation's cross? Leaving the plain reading vs the reading of the pattern for others to piece together?
 
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Ken Rank

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Except he said he chose to only know that.
How many items can I go and pull out from Paul's letters, his teachings, that are not directly related to Christ crucified as you are interpreting his words? For example, in 1 Tim. 3 we find Paul discussing the qualifications of elders and deacons. Or we can ask what do head coverings in 1 Cor. 11 have to do with only Christ being crucified? How about Romans 11 and gentiles being grafted in, or Romans 13 and submission to authorities, or for that matter, what do spiritual gifts have to do with JUST Christ and him crucified? I can pull (easily) 100 teachings from Paul and ask the same question and all of them go beyond him choosing "only to know that."

Paul is bible (of the day) and Christ centered, that is very clear. But if knowing only Christ crucified is the blanket literal statement many treat it as, then him teaching on ANYTHING else makes no sense and is inconsistent with that conclusion.

Respectfully, I submitted that this could be more idiomatic and encompass all that "Christ crucified" brings to the table and knowing the certain exegetical tools Paul uses, this is a possibility. But I also submit to you now, as well, that in reading through 1 Corinthians this morning I am reminded that he was dealing with a situation in Corinth at that time. Let's go back to the first chapter and look at this:

1 Cor. 1:10-11 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (11) For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you.

You see, he is writing to a people who are dividing and Paul is trying to take them back to the basics, the starting point or foundation and begin anew. In context, it sounds like the Corinthians (some of them) went off on unproductive rabbit trails and were introducing into their group certain teachings that were not edifying to all.
 
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Qvashti

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You see, he is writing to a people who are dividing and Paul is trying to take them back to the basics, the starting point or foundation and begin anew. In context, it sounds like the Corinthians (some of them) went off on unproductive rabbit trails and were introducing into their group certain teachings that were not edifying to all.
No matter how many conclusions can be drawn the fact remains that the basis of Paul's teaching were cemented in the salvation of the cross as the remedy for the ails of the Adamic race. The second fact that stands out for me is that upon that foundation of Christ and Him crucified Paul's definition of the meaning of that salvation is rolled up into what that means for His bride. The third fact is that allegorical means were employed by him to paint the picture of the comsumation of all time. The forth observation is that Paul was not concerned with laying anything but the foundation that rested on the cross. Further teaching that were a by-product of the cross were left to the outcome of the results of the fall to be put back together by all the king's men. Those are, in fact, my conclusions on the matter. I'm not sure how anyone could convince me otherwise. Paul based his teaching on the old Adam and left the new Adam to straighten the line that points all the way to the Father.
 
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