(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

ralliann

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I believe it is a misunderstanding to say that the Mosaic Covenant is contrary to the Abrahamic Covenant.

I The Abrahamic Covenant:
1) The promise of a special relationship: "to be God to you and your descendants" Gen 17:7
2) The gift of the land: Gen.15:18-19
3) The promise of an increase in number: Gen.17:6
4) Establishing the covenant to Abraham's descendants as an everlasting covenant: Gen.17:7,19
5) The promise of blessing: Gen.12:2; 26:24
6) The nations will be blessed: Gen.12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14

II The Mosaic Covenant:

1) The promise of a special relationship: A treasured people, Ex. 19:5 Be your God and you will be My people, Lev. 26:12
2) The gift of the land: Ex. 23:20-23; Lev. 26:42
3) The promise of an increase in number: Lev. 26:9
4) Confirming the covenant to subsequent generations: Lev. 26:9
5) The promise of blessing: Deut.11:26f
6) Israel will be a light, a blessing to the nations: Isa. 2:3; 51:4

As you can see the two Covenants are not separate and distinct but woven together in the flow of redemptive history.
It is not as though God has gone back on His word, at first promising unconditional blessing to Abraham, and then changing His Covenant to be conditional at Sinai. Far from it! God, in choosing Abraham and his offspring, had set Himself to form a people who would be characterized by His own holiness.
The Covenants of Abraham came not only with blessing, but also with provision to attain that blessing through obedience. Indeed, the Abrahamic Covenant anticipated the Mosaic Covenant as the means by which that promised blessing would be realized!

And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Gen. 18:17-19


The blessings promised in the Abrahamic Covenant are secure because God intends to enable Abraham's offspring to do righteousness and justice. To put it in theological terms, the promise of the covenant assures the sanctification of those who will be blessed.
Thus, the Mosaic Covenant, the Torah through the Holy Spirit, is given to bring about that holiness which would, in turn, produce the promised Covenant blessings.
It was necessary then that those who would receive the unconditional blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant should be righteous, not only in a forensic or "positional" sense, but in "doing righteousness and justice." In this way, it is necessary for every Covenant member to have the Torah, because it is in the Torah that God's revelation and standards of righteousness and justice are revealed.
The Abrahamic Covenant is presented as unilateral (God initiating and promising) just as justification is God's sole work. Likewise, the Mosaic Covenant is presented as bilateral (God and Israel working together) just as sanctification is presented in the Bible as the cooperation between the redeemed soul and the Almighty.
But if the Abrahamic covenant included the Gentiles, then it is also necessary that the Gentiles have the Torah; for the Torah (Mosaic Covenant) is the God-given means to prepare His people to receive the blessings promised to Abraham. God's blessings come upon the righteous, not the wicked!
To say that the Gentiles are blessed in the Abrahamic covenant but have no part in the Mosaic covenant would be like saying a person could be justified without becoming sanctified. Such a scenario finds no place in the biblical record.
Abraham taught his entire household prior to the law of Moses
Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
His household included Children from keturah, as well as His servants.
Ge 25:4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

Moses father in law was priest of Midian. He knew a thing or two about setting up courts of justice.
Ex. 18:17 And Moses’ father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.
19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:

24 So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.
Moses law was additional law. It retained law which was prior.
 
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ralliann

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No, I am responding to those who say the OT is nullified.
No, I do not believe it is nullified. It brings wrath to those that are judged by it. It's wrath is nullified in Christ, because it's judgement on us is nullified...
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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Oh (raises eyebrows)

First off, don't be offended if there is information that Satan's world would rather that you not hear.

The fact is, MOST of the world has not heard what it is that I have offered and am offering for your consideration. Why? Because it is easier to deceive the uninformed.

What you choose to do with this is entirely upon you.


So now that you know there is a "Pontifex Maximus", what is the significance?


In Daniel, it is prophesied that four kingdoms would rise up.

The first 3 kingdoms are identified BY SCRIPTURE as;
Babylon
Medes/Persia
Greece

In Daniel, it is prophesied that a "Little Horn" would rise up and make war against God's mighty people out of the fourth kingdom.

Daniel 7
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came
, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Would it be an "Amazing Coincidence" if the "Pontifex Maximus" VERIFIABLEY met every SCRIPTURAL QUALIFIER for this "Little Horn"?
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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Don't be so hard on those opposing the Sabbath Commandment my friend. I am sure they have their reasons.

If you oppose the Sabbath Commandment;

are you not making war against the Sabbath Commandment?

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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Well then you have nothing to do with the faith of Abraham or the Covenant God made with him. You have none of the promises that God has made with His people. Some were mentioned in the NT but not all by any means.
On the contrary. The covenant made with Abraham is not conditional upon becoming a Jew subscribing to the law covenant made with Israel at Sinai. That covenant is by-passed with the new covenant.
You have counted 2/3 of the Bible as irrelevant. You are dividing the Word of God on what grounds? What are these new commands? List them please. Remember that love is defined by the Torah of God. So don't even mention love without reference to the Torah.
No i do not count 2/3 of the Bible irrelevant. I do not divide the Word of God. You want a list of why i do not subscribe to the old covenant. Here you go:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


I can post more. I see no reason to. You must prove these passages are false or discount them with documented proof as error. I don't believe you can.

I believe it has been said in this forum somewhere: put up or shut up.
 
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If you oppose the Sabbath Commandment;

are you not making war against the Sabbath Commandment?

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
No
 
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Sentence context does help define the meaning of some words. Like in this case where the Torah is written on people's hearts. Would this be a brand new Covenant or a renewed Covenant? If it contains components of the same Covenant as before then a renewed definition is indicated.

No one has said what Torah is written on our hearts if it isn't the one and only Torah from God. Can someone list them if they are brand new? Anyone? And remember, if it has anything to do with love then it is covered in the Torah already.
What components of the old covenant do you insist are found as part of the new covenant? Yes I read the whole Bible and paid attention to the details. It took years.
 
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I believe it is a misunderstanding to say that the Mosaic Covenant is contrary to the Abrahamic Covenant.

I The Abrahamic Covenant:
1) The promise of a special relationship: "to be God to you and your descendants" Gen 17:7
Then you're doing nothing more than wasting time here. Few if any posting here are descendants of Abraham. Your evangelism efforts are vain.
 
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Yes, but that was fortold in the OT! Get it? It was not something that was a surprise and not accounted for. It was in the Scripture that the Scripture would change in this point so it is a fulfillment of Scripture.
Even if it was it's still a change of the law you argue against.
 
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Dig4truth

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On the contrary. The covenant made with Abraham is not conditional upon becoming a Jew subscribing to the law covenant made with Israel at Sinai.


That is what we call a strawman. No one said that the Abrahamic Covenant is conditional on the Mosaic Covenant.

And it is not becoming a Jew either, another strawman.



That covenant is by-passed with the new covenant.No i do not count 2/3 of the Bible irrelevant. I do not divide the Word of God. You want a list of why i do not subscribe to the old covenant. Here you go:


That is what we call an admission of guilt.
You say that you do not count 2/3 of the Bible as irrelevant but then try to explain why you do not subscribe to 2/3 of the Bible. Can you see the problem with this?



Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


I can post more. I see no reason to. You must prove these passages are false or discount them with documented proof as error. I don't believe you can.

I believe it has been said in this forum somewhere: put up or shut up.



I need not prove your misunderstanding of the scriptures.
 
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Dig4truth

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Good question. I want to know, also.


Look at Psalms 110. It speaks about the priesthood of Melchizedek. Then look at Hebrews 5-7.

I know Hebrews is in the NT but I thought I should include some Scripture from there so that the point wouldn't be discounted out of hand.
 
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ralliann

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If you oppose the Sabbath Commandment;

are you not making war against the Sabbath Commandment?

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I don't think so. Opposed to the letter, not the spirit.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I don't think so. Opposed to the letter, not the spirit.
Hi; it's interesting that Hebrews7.12 says that the law was changed; and Hebrews 7.19 says that what the believer now has is better than the law. :)
 
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