What is the same between an abolished law and a fulfilled law?

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree. It helps if you understand the common Jewish belief at the time of Christ that the apocalypse was coming anytime soon. They thought the 'age' would end in some great calamitous event through which God would deliver Israel from her enemies (through the messiah) and the Kingdom of God would finally be established. A new age of righteousness and peace would then begin.

When the disciples ask Jesus about the end of the world/age their question is loaded with these apocalyptic beliefs.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear Jesus was responding to a question about the end of the age with regard to the temple being destroyed and not the end of the age with regard to the whole world being destroyed. Matthew 24:2-3:

“Do you see all these things? He replied. “Truly I tell you,not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be toppled.” While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will all this happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
To sum up the above passage, Jesus points to the temple and says "This is going to be destroyed" and then the disciples ask "When will this happen? What will be the sign of You doing it so that the current age ends?" The fact that it is Jesus Who will destroy the temple is significant to understanding a whole chunk of the new testament, especially the book of Revelation. All of Matthew 24 pointed to the temple being destroyed. The destruction of the temple was the final climactic end of the Old Covenant system. Look at verses 17-20:

Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers. Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.​

It's difficult to apply the above passage to some apocalyptic world-wide destruction. However it fits perfectly with what actually happened; how the Romans came suddenly and only those who were warned ran for the hills immediately.

The New Age of the New Covenant began in its totality after God's wrath was poured out on the Old Covenant system. The book I linked to earlier, Raptureless, is freaking excellent and explains a lot of this stuff in detail.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching OTHERS how to obey it? Where do you get this theology? Every teacher of the Law taught others the law.

That is saying Christ died for our sins for nothing.
Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching OTHERS how to obey it? Where do you get this theology? Every teacher of the Law taught others the law.

That is saying Christ died for our sins for nothing.

This is where you must read between the lines, see the underlying meaning.

God placed Israel in Canaan, a country where she would drink from wells dug by others, eat from trees planted by others, meaning it was a land already reclaimed from the wild and domesticated, made useful for men.

Ever Israelites was given land to farm, and could use it to act as collateral, security, to borrow money when a large sum was required.

After seven years, he could get back the land without paying off the loan.

This was to show Israel that everything belonged to God, He was the landlord, they were only tenants, stewards: God was using the situation to show how He wanted men to live. The life lived was like a board game, Monopoly, played to show how the Kingdom functioned.

If they served Him, were loyal to His nature and His principles, He would protect and provide for them. It wasn't their work that sustained them, it was His Instruction, every word that came forth from the mouth of the Lord. They could do unrealistic stuff like give security back to borrowers without being paid back, and still be blessed, prosper, because God would ensure it.

This was how Israel was to be a light to the pagan nations around her. They would see the light, the Way, and turn to God, giving Him the glory.

Matthew 5:16
16Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


Since Israel never obeyed faithfully (they began to refuse to give loans to fellow Israelites after the fifth year of the Jubilee), God sent prophets to remind Israel to live like God intended, not bow her knee to Baal. Only a remnant listened, every time a prophet taught the Law through obeying it, fulfilled it , up to the time John the Forerunner came.

When Jesus came, and no rent was paid, He also taught the Law by example, fulfilled the Law as it was meant to be fulfilled, laying down His life for his brother men, figuratively. See, Israel was supposed to show how a godly life, a life depending on God and not their own strength was viable, by living that life, but they shrank back, like they did in the wilderness when Moses was their prophet, so they were not a blessing to the world in turning it to the Rock, God. It was only when Joshua was faithful did a Gentile, Rahab, turn to God.

Of course, at the wedding feast, Jesus replicated Joshua's act: He faced the enemy, death, and God allowed Him to have victory, carrying Him into the New Man, just as God defeated the Amalekites enabling Joshua to enter the Promised Land.

Jesus had literally layed down His life, risked it, for His brother, at the Cross, and saved him by turning him to the Rock, the only sure Provider, just as he had figuratively done (He risked being condemned as a false prophet according to the traditions of the Jewish leaders) on lesser occasions during His ministry:

Matthew 15:31
The crowd was amazed when they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, the lame walking, and the blind seeing. And they glorified the God of Israel.

Mark 2:12
And immediately the man got up, picked up his mat, and walked out in front of them all. As a result, everyone was amazed and glorified God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Yes.

The Law was a covenant, and it had a "final payment" to be made.

To "abolish" the covenant would be to abrogate it without making the final payment.

To fulfill the covenant would be to make the final payment.
Excellent post!
I believe Hebrews 8 defines that fairly well:

Hebrews 8:
16 For where there is a will, it is necessary to establish the death of the one having made it. 17 For a will is affirmed after death, since it is not in force at the time when the one having made it is living, 18 wherefore neither has the first been inaugurated apart from blood.
19 For of every commandment having been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, having taken the blood of calves and of goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, he sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God commanded unto you.”
c

Hosea 13:14
"From hand of sh@'owl I shall release/rescue/06299 padah them;
from Death I shall Redeem/01350 ga'al them....
[1 Corin 15:55/Reve 1:18]

Reve 1:18
and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I AM living into the Ages of the Ages.
and I AM having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,095
20,141
US
✟1,437,071.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The New Age of the New Covenant began in its totality after God's wrath was poured out on the Old Covenant system. The book I linked to earlier, Raptureless, is freaking excellent and explains a lot of this stuff in detail.

And under the Mosaic Covenant, forgiveness of sins was only possible through sacrifice at the altar, absolutely no other way. With the destruction of the temple, there was no way to be forgiven of sin under the Mosaic Law. Forgiveness of sin would require a different covenant with a different requirement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Wrong.

The servants (prophets of whom John the Forerunner was the greatest) all rebuked the Jews for not being righteous, unlike a few, the remnant, like Zechariah and Elizabeth and Mary.

yes there is a remnant but how does this disqualify what I said? rewind during the days of King Solomon and Jerusalem turns into a logistical trading route where thousands or merchants would pass through from no doubt thousands of cultures. The temple was a beacon of the glory of God that is also manifested through the law, this is the design of the outer court so that the non-jew can see and expereince this glory. The Jews were a separate chosen nation, a type of priest nation of the other nations to encounter the the glory of God in authenticity. It all points to Christ and he fulfills it's because it is his right and authority to do so; it the purpose of his incarnation.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And under the Mosaic Covenant, forgiveness of sins was only possible through sacrifice at the altar, absolutely no other way. With the destruction of the temple, there was no way to be forgiven of sin under the Mosaic Law. Forgiveness of sin would require a different covenant with a different requirement.

If you asked a modern day Jew, he would tell you:

No animal was harmed during the incident when Nineveh was forgiven.

Daniel and the faithful Jews were justified in Exile without a single animal being harmed.

Sacrifice was given to wean the Israelites from their pagan practices because of their hardness of heart (Maimonides).

If you asked Christian scholars of narrative theology (they don't try to rationalise Scripture) they would tell you:

Abraham's covenant, God promising to wash away the sins of His People, through Abraham's seed, unconditionally, was not abrogated by Sinai. Sinai was an addendum, because of sin. Law was used to be a guardian, protector of the remnant, till the arrival of Messiah. Sacrifice is not law, sacrifice is oracle, revelation about Messiah's work, which will help to receive him, to believe in Him.

The publican in the temple was justified just by asking for mercy. The law revealed his sin. He asked for mercy, He was justified. No animal harmed in the telling of this incident either.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
yes there is a remnant but how does this disqualify what I said? rewind during the days of King Solomon and Jerusalem turns into a logistical trading route where thousands or merchants would pass through from no doubt thousands of cultures. The temple was a beacon of the glory of God that is also manifested through the law, this is the design of the outer court so that the non-jew can see and expereince this glory. The Jews were a separate chosen nation, a type of priest nation of the other nations to encounter the the glory of God in authenticity. It all points to Christ and he fulfills it's because it is his right and authority to do so; it the purpose of his incarnation.
It disqualifies your claim that the Law proclaims Christ, for others to glorify.

The function of the law is to bring to repentance, because no one can obey it in all its points. Failure humbles, at which point God justifies, accepts the believer.

Luke 18:
9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

However, the pagan observes the effect of the believer in attempting to follow the law, God's forgiveness and blessing, moving him to turn to God:

Deuteronomy 4:1-8
1“And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, in order that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 3“Your eyes have seen what the LORD has done in the case of Baal-peor, for all the men who followed Baal-peor, the LORD your God has destroyed them from among you. 4“But you who held fast to the LORD your God are alive today, every one of you. 5“See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it. 6“So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7“For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the LORD our God whenever we call on Him? 8“Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The function of the law is to bring to repentance, because no one can obey it in all its points. Failure humbles, at which point God justifies, accepts the believer.

the end result is salvation through Christ and showing the glory of God; you're only picking out the trees... im addressing the forest. This is the inherent make up of the law, without Christ the law is nothing, and without the glory of God the law has no meaning.

this is the purpose of the law and its subsequent fulfillment by Christ:
Hab 2:14 "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the end result is salvation through Christ and showing the glory of God; you're only picking out the trees... im addressing the forest. This is the inherent make up of the law, without Christ the law is nothing, and without the glory of God the law has no meaning.

this is the purpose of the law and its subsequent fulfillment by Christ:
Hab 2:14 "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea"

Israel could have been the seed, and finally God had to send Christ.

Do you want Him to continue to carry you or do you want to share in His suffering, and His death, towards a better resurrection?
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,095
20,141
US
✟1,437,071.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you asked a modern day Jew, he would tell you:

No animal was harmed during the incident when Nineveh was forgiven.

Daniel and the faithful Jews were justified in Exile without a single animal being harmed.

Sacrifice was given to wean the Israelites from their pagan practices because of their hardness of heart (Maimonides).

If you asked Christian scholars of narrative theology (they don't try to rationalise Scripture) they would tell you:

Abraham's covenant, God promising to wash away the sins of His People, through Abraham's seed, unconditionally, was not abrogated by Sinai. Sinai was an addendum, because of sin. Law was used to be a guardian, protector of the remnant, till the arrival of Messiah. Sacrifice is not law, sacrifice is oracle, revelation about Messiah's work, which will help to receive him, to believe in Him.

The publican in the temple was justified just by asking for mercy. The law revealed his sin. He asked for mercy, He was justified. No animal harmed in the telling of this incident either.

And none of that was by the ordinances of the Mosaic Law.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,095
20,141
US
✟1,437,071.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are falling back on special pleading?

No, I'm making the point that the Mosaic Covenant is not sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. Even when its ordinances for the forgiveness of sins was practicable, they had to be continuous. But now they're not even practicable.

You brought up a number of circumstances in which we presume faithful people received forgiveness by means other than the Mosaic Covenant.

The writer of Hebrews has already done that and provided the explanation--they were already looking to promises beyond the Mosaic Covenant.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Please explain what do you mean with “Christ’s law”, so that I can see do we have same definition?

I mean the same Christ's law mentioned here:

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Israel could have been the seed, and finally God had to send Christ.

Do you want Him to continue to carry you or do you want to share in His suffering, and His death, towards a better resurrection?
God’s Word says that Christ was always the plan, not plan B because of Israel.
 
Upvote 0

Hizikyah777

Member
Oct 15, 2017
24
4
Illinois
✟8,050.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Separated
Matthew 5:17-18, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.”

Revelation 21:1-2, “And I saw a renewed heaven and a renewed earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. And I, Yoḥanan, saw the set-apart city, renewed Yerushalayim, coming down out of the heaven from Yah, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

There are 2 "it is done" statements...

Fulfilled already
John 19:30, “So when יהושע took the sour wine He said, “It is done!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

To be fulfilled in the future
Revelation 21:4-8, “And Yah shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying. And there shall be no more pain, for the former matters have passed away. And He who was sitting on the throne said, “See, I make all matters new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and trustworthy. And He said to me, “It is done! I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I shall give of the fountain of the water of life without payment. The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Strength and he shall be My son. But as for the cowardly, and untrustworthy, and abominable, and murderers, and those who harlot, and drug sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the false, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
This is where you must read between the lines, see the underlying meaning.

God placed Israel in Canaan, a country where she would drink from wells dug by others, eat from trees planted by others, meaning it was a land already reclaimed from the wild and domesticated, made useful for men.

Ever Israelites was given land to farm, and could use it to act as collateral, security, to borrow money when a large sum was required.

After seven years, he could get back the land without paying off the loan.

This was to show Israel that everything belonged to God, He was the landlord, they were only tenants, stewards: God was using the situation to show how He wanted men to live. The life lived was like a board game, Monopoly, played to show how the Kingdom functioned.

If they served Him, were loyal to His nature and His principles, He would protect and provide for them. It wasn't their work that sustained them, it was His Instruction, every word that came forth from the mouth of the Lord. They could do unrealistic stuff like give security back to borrowers without being paid back, and still be blessed, prosper, because God would ensure it.

This was how Israel was to be a light to the pagan nations around her. They would see the light, the Way, and turn to God, giving Him the glory.

Matthew 5:16
16Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


Since Israel never obeyed faithfully (they began to refuse to give loans to fellow Israelites after the fifth year of the Jubilee), God sent prophets to remind Israel to live like God intended, not bow her knee to Baal. Only a remnant listened, every time a prophet taught the Law through obeying it, fulfilled it , up to the time John the Forerunner came.

When Jesus came, and no rent was paid, He also taught the Law by example, fulfilled the Law as it was meant to be fulfilled, laying down His life for his brother men, figuratively. See, Israel was supposed to show how a godly life, a life depending on God and not their own strength was viable, by living that life, but they shrank back, like they did in the wilderness when Moses was their prophet, so they were not a blessing to the world in turning it to the Rock, God. It was only when Joshua was faithful did a Gentile, Rahab, turn to God.

Of course, at the wedding feast, Jesus replicated Joshua's act: He faced the enemy, death, and God allowed Him to have victory, carrying Him into the New Man, just as God defeated the Amalekites enabling Joshua to enter the Promised Land.

Jesus had literally layed down His life, risked it, for His brother, at the Cross, and saved him by turning him to the Rock, the only sure Provider, just as he had figuratively done (He risked being condemned as a false prophet according to the traditions of the Jewish leaders) on lesser occasions during His ministry:

Matthew 15:31
The crowd was amazed when they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, the lame walking, and the blind seeing. And they glorified the God of Israel.

Mark 2:12
And immediately the man got up, picked up his mat, and walked out in front of them all. As a result, everyone was amazed and glorified God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!
Can you explain how this relates to Christ fulfilling the Law?

I guess I do t see how it relates back to the conversation
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Israel could have been the seed, and finally God had to send Christ.

Do you want Him to continue to carry you or do you want to share in His suffering, and His death, towards a better resurrection?

Christ was always the plan, Israel was the forerunner but it has always been about Christ.
 
Upvote 0