Why I dislike Calvinism

DeaconDean · Oct 26, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Those God calls to service have to be God’s. Maybe you are saying that God’s overall will is done either way, but one is only in service to their master.

Not so.

Go back to the Old Testament and read what scripture says about King Cyrus.

"Cyrus is a king mentioned more than 30 times in the Bible and is identified as Cyrus the Great (also Cyrus II or Cyrus the Elder) who reigned over Persia between 539—530 BC. This pagan king is important in Jewish history because it was under his rule that Jews were first allowed to return to Israel after 70 years of captivity.

In one of the most amazing prophecies of the Bible, Isaiah predicts Cyrus’ decree to free the Jews. One hundred fifty years before Cyrus lived, the prophet calls him by name and gives details of Cyrus’ benevolence to the Jews: “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him . . . ‘I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me’” (Isaiah 45:1, 4; see also 41:2-25; 42:6). Evincing His sovereignty over all nations, God says of Cyrus, “He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please” (Isaiah 44:28).

Cyrus’s decree releasing the Jewish people, in fulfillment of prophecy, is recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:22–23: “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing: ‘Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, “The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may the LORD his God be with him. Let him go up.”’” Other Old Testament books that mention Cyrus include Ezra and Daniel.

King Cyrus actively assisted the Jews in rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem under Ezra and Zerubbabel. Cyrus restored the temple treasures to Jerusalem and allowed building expenses to be paid from the royal treasury (Ezra 1:4–11; 6:4–5). Cyrus’s beneficence helped to restart the temple worship practices that had languished during the 70 years of the Jews’ captivity. Some commentators point to Cyrus’s decree to rebuild Jerusalem as the official beginning of Judaism.

Among the Jews deported from Judah and later placed under the rule of Cyrus include the prophet Daniel. In fact, we are told Daniel served until at least the third year of King Cyrus, approximately 536 BC (Daniel 10:1). That being the case, Daniel likely had some personal involvement in the decree that was made in support of the Jews. The historian Josephus says that Cyrus was informed of the biblical prophecies written about him (Antiquities of the Jews, XI.1.2). The natural person to have shown Cyrus the scrolls was Daniel, a high-ranking official in Persia (Daniel 6:28).

Besides his dealings with the Jews, Cyrus is known for his advancement of human rights, his brilliant military strategy, and his bridging of Eastern and Western cultures. He was a king of tremendous influence and a person God used to help fulfill an important Old Testament prophecy."

Source

There is nothing about King Cyrus being "God's". Only that God used him in a special way to accomplish His purpose. There is absolutely no mention of salvation extended to King Cyrus or of him receiving salvation.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

ToBeLoved · Oct 26, 2017

DeaconDean said:
Not so.

Go back to the Old Testament and read what scripture says about King Cyrus.

"Cyrus is a king mentioned more than 30 times in the Bible and is identified as Cyrus the Great (also Cyrus II or Cyrus the Elder) who reigned over Persia between 539—530 BC. This pagan king is important in Jewish history because it was under his rule that Jews were first allowed to return to Israel after 70 years of captivity.

In one of the most amazing prophecies of the Bible, Isaiah predicts Cyrus’ decree to free the Jews. One hundred fifty years before Cyrus lived, the prophet calls him by name and gives details of Cyrus’ benevolence to the Jews: “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him . . . ‘I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me’” (Isaiah 45:1, 4; see also 41:2-25; 42:6). Evincing His sovereignty over all nations, God says of Cyrus, “He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please” (Isaiah 44:28).

Cyrus’s decree releasing the Jewish people, in fulfillment of prophecy, is recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:22–23: “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing: ‘Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, “The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may the LORD his God be with him. Let him go up.”’” Other Old Testament books that mention Cyrus include Ezra and Daniel.

King Cyrus actively assisted the Jews in rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem under Ezra and Zerubbabel. Cyrus restored the temple treasures to Jerusalem and allowed building expenses to be paid from the royal treasury (Ezra 1:4–11; 6:4–5). Cyrus’s beneficence helped to restart the temple worship practices that had languished during the 70 years of the Jews’ captivity. Some commentators point to Cyrus’s decree to rebuild Jerusalem as the official beginning of Judaism.

Among the Jews deported from Judah and later placed under the rule of Cyrus include the prophet Daniel. In fact, we are told Daniel served until at least the third year of King Cyrus, approximately 536 BC (Daniel 10:1). That being the case, Daniel likely had some personal involvement in the decree that was made in support of the Jews. The historian Josephus says that Cyrus was informed of the biblical prophecies written about him (Antiquities of the Jews, XI.1.2). The natural person to have shown Cyrus the scrolls was Daniel, a high-ranking official in Persia (Daniel 6:28).

Besides his dealings with the Jews, Cyrus is known for his advancement of human rights, his brilliant military strategy, and his bridging of Eastern and Western cultures. He was a king of tremendous influence and a person God used to help fulfill an important Old Testament prophecy."

Source

There is nothing about King Cyrus being "God's". Only that God used him in a special way to accomplish His purpose. There is absolutely no mention of salvation extended to King Cyrus or of him receiving salvation.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I never said God doesn’t intervene in some events.

Service are Christ’s/Gods own doing God’s will.

But that is not what is meant by the verse in its context.

Tiberius Lee · Oct 26, 2017

rockytopva said:
I finally, after enduring much talk on carnality, said to her, "You know I don't believe you can do those things and get to heaven." Almost immediately she replies, "Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

This is my main gripe against Calvinism, and that is it gives people a false sense of eternal security. This is a race to be run and not a destination at some point of doctrinal sense.

I am a Calvinist , grew up in a family where everyone believes you can lose your salvation, studied in a Fundamental Baptist Bible college, and my wife is Pentecostal- just to give you an idea about my back-ground .

I do believe in eternal salvation, but that doesn’t give my license to sin. My eternal salvation is the Grace of God. I know I will not lose my salvation, however that doesn’t mean I can knowingly and deliberately keep sinning. Someone who thinks they can sin because their salvation is sealed by the Holy Ghost, I would wonder their salvation in the first place. A true born-again Christian, a children of God will always seek to walk with God, that doesn’t mean they will not fail but deep down in their heart they will always want to walk with God.

rockytopva · Oct 26, 2017

Tiberius Lee said:
I am a Calvinist , grew up in a family where everyone believes you can lose your salvation, studied in a Fundamental Baptist Bible college, and my wife is Pentecostal- just to give you an idea about my back-ground .

I do believe in eternal salvation, but that doesn’t give my license to sin. My eternal salvation is the Grace of God. I know I will not lose my salvation, however that doesn’t mean I can knowingly and deliberately keep sinning. Someone who thinks they can sin because their salvation is sealed by the Holy Ghost, I would wonder their salvation in the first place. A true born-again Christian, a children of God will always seek to walk with God, that doesn’t mean they will not fail but deep down in their heart they will always want to walk with God.

Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart. - Hosea 4:11

The party scene is spoiling a many a soul. Elvis and Marilynn Monroe were raised evangelical Christian and were spoiled by the party scene.

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 27, 2017

Of course salvation is by grace, not merit. And 1 Cor 1:21 shows what pleases God; to save those who believe. Is there merit in believing in Christ? No. Salvation is not earned by believing in Christ. Paul made that point clear in Rom 4:4,5 where he contrasted works with grace.

Our friend, FreeGrace2, reveals a common misconception when he denies there is any merit whatever in believing in Christ.

He also misconstrues how Scripture interprets ‘works.’

There are works done before regeneration and works done after regeneration.

The former are irrelevant, while the latter are imperative.

The former are self-aggrandizing, while the latter are God glorifying.

The former gain no favor with God, while the latter prove the favor of God.

Salvation is first and foremost conditioned on faith (John 3:16, 36; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; etc.).

Faith is the miraculous work of God in the Elect, one of the many spiritual gifts merited by Christ’s atonement (Ephesians 1:3; Romans 8:32).

Christ is the author and finisher of our saving faith (Hebrews 12:2).

It is that which God works in us (Philippians 2:13; Ephesians 2:10).

It is the faith of the Elect (Titus 1:1).

God miraculously births faith in us, for we, like Sarah and Abraham (Genesis 18), are impotent to give birth on our own (Romans 5:6).

Furthermore, we are spiritually dead in sins and trespasses (Ephesians 2:5, blind to spiritual truth (John 3:3), unwilling and unable to come to Christ (John 5:40, 6:44, 65).

These are just a few of our grave impediments which require God’s supernatural, omnipotent power exercised on our behalf to overcome that which for us is virtually impossible.

And that supernatural, omnipotent power can be understood by the phrase, ‘saving grace.’

It can also be understood by the phrase, “I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have mercy and compassion" (Romans 9:15).

Believing on Jesus is the miraculous work of God in the lives of the Elect (John 6:29).

Christ’s active and passive sinless work merited our faith (John 3:17), which the Holy Spirit bestows efficaciously on all those for whom Christ died (John 16:8), all who were given Him by the Father (John 17:2, 12).

Man does not merit salvation by any work which emanates from his unregenerate being:

because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8).

Salvation is ALL of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), even our faith.

It is ALL the effectual work of God (Jonah 2:9).

We simply work out that which God works in us (Philippians 2:13).

Is there merit in believing in Christ?

The answer is ‘Yes, but the merit is all due the risen Christ who purchased our saving faith with His shed blood.’

The work of unregenerate man, on the other hand, merits nothing but death (Romans 6:23).

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me (1 Cor. 15:10).

FreeGrace2 · Oct 27, 2017

I said this:
"Of course salvation is by grace, not merit. And 1 Cor 1:21 shows what pleases God; to save those who believe. Is there merit in believing in Christ? No. Salvation is not earned by believing in Christ. Paul made that point clear in Rom 4:4,5 where he contrasted works with grace."

ICONBUSTERS said:
Our friend, FreeGrace2, reveals a common misconception when he denies there is any merit whatever in believing in Christ.

Our friend, IB, reveals a failure to read or understand what I post.

If salvation was by merit, then salvation is earned. That's what "merit" means.

So apparently IB thinks salvation is earned, then.

He also misconstrues how Scripture interprets ‘works.’

I directly quoted Paul. So, again, IB must think that Paul was somehow wrong.

There are works done before regeneration and works done after regeneration.

The former are irrelevant, while the latter are imperative.

By "imperative", it means a command to obey.

The former are self-aggrandizing, while the latter are God glorifying.

And nothing here about meriting salvation.

The former gain no favor with God, while the latter prove the favor of God.

And, yet, merit is no where seen in our salvation.

Salvation is first and foremost conditioned on faith (John 3:16, 36; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; etc.).

So why do the reformed claim that election to salvation is unconditional? I wish IB would provide an explanation.

Faith is the miraculous work of God in the Elect, one of the many spiritual gifts merited by Christ’s atonement (Ephesians 1:3; Romans 8:32).

None of these verses say anything close to what IB claims here. It seems IB is claiming that God is the cause of the act of believing among the "elect", but there are no verses to that effect.

Christ is the author and finisher of our saving faith (Hebrews 12:2).

Amen.

God miraculously births faith in us, for we, like Sarah and Abraham (Genesis 18), are impotent to give birth on our own (Romans 5:6).

I'd love to see the verse that teaches that faith is "birthed" in us.

It can also be understood by the phrase, “I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have mercy and compassion" (Romans 9:15).

Let's compare this verse with another verse, to see the whole picture.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

So, what we really see isn't what IB seems to insinuate; that God capriciously grants mercy/compassion upon people.

Instead, He grants mery to those who "turn to the Lord", the exact opposite of what he seems to be suggesting.

Is there merit in believing in Christ?

The act of believing is non-meritorious, It is of grace. If it were meritorious, it would be works.

But, once again, IB makes no effort to defend any of his claims, all of which I've responded to and refuted with Scripture.

But such is the way of man.

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 28, 2017

Even a 13-year-old is able teach the biblical doctrine of Election.

Nothing is too difficult for the Lord!

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
Even a 13-year-old is able teach the biblical doctrine of Election.

Nothing is too difficult for the Lord!

No kidding. Anyone who can read can understand the biblical doctrine of election, as proven here: The purpose of Election

Even after all the long posts, IB hasn't provided any Scripture that teaches that salvation is by election.

The biblical doctrine of soteriology is that salvation is by faith in Christ.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

sdowney717 · Nov 8, 2017

rockytopva said:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. -Romans 12:1

Christ HAS saved us with an eternal salvation, that is all believers who are in Christ are IN CHRIST. That is the will of God.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9).

John 3:16New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Now if someone has no faith in Christ, this is a sure sign that the are not born of God. And they will also not be overcoming the world. But the world will overcome them.

1 John 5 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and every one that loveth Him that begot, loveth Him also that is begotten by Him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments.

3 For this is the love of God: that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not grievous.

4 For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world. And this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Tiberius Lee · Nov 8, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
No kidding. Anyone who can read can understand the biblical doctrine of election, as proven here: The purpose of Election

Even after all the long posts, IB hasn't provided any Scripture that teaches that salvation is by election.

gift of God—

John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Ephesians 1:4–5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

FreeGrace2 · Nov 8, 2017

I said this:
"Anyone who can read can understand the biblical doctrine of election, as proven here: The purpose of Election

Even after all the long posts, IB hasn't provided any Scripture that teaches that salvation is by election."

Tiberius Lee said:
John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Even this verse supports my belief, that election is to service. Just note the words: "I have chosen you and ordained you"

Ephesians 1:4–5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

OK, who are the "us" in v.4? v.19 answers that: "us who believe". So, this verse also supports my belief, that Eph 1:4 teaches that God elects believers...to be holy and blameless. Again, this is for service, not salvation.

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

There is nothing here about being chosen for salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 things here. First, the word "chosen" here isn't the word related to election in all the other verses. In those "election" verses, the word is 'eklegomai', while, in this verse, the word is 'haireomai'.

Every election involves a choice.
But very few choices involve an election.

Now, I've addressed every verse provided. Please see the OP in the thread I referenced, and address how any of the examples of election were for salvation.

Doug Melven · Nov 8, 2017

I think the Calvinists have a wrong conclusion of Total Depravity.

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

I don't deny Scripture saying unbelievers are totally depraved. But, there conclusion is wrong.
If an unbeliever sees the road they are on is taking them to hell and they do not want to spend eternity their they can make a selfish choice and choose God so they don't go their.
Or, if an unbeliever sees that only God can fill that eternal hole that God placed inside him and he makes a decision for God to fill that aching.
Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Titus 2:11 The Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.
2 Peter 3:9 God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

sdowney717 · Nov 9, 2017

Doug Melven said:
I think the Calvinists have a wrong conclusion of Total Depravity.

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

I don't deny Scripture saying unbelievers are totally depraved. But, there conclusion is wrong.
If an unbeliever sees the road they are on is taking them to hell and they do not want to spend eternity their they can make a selfish choice and choose God so they don't go their.
Or, if an unbeliever sees that only God can fill that eternal hole that God placed inside him and he makes a decision for God to fill that aching.
Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Titus 2:11 The Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.
2 Peter 3:9 God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

A man is sovereignly born again, born of God apart from his own will.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So those who are born again is not of their will, not of their choice. The reason a man is born of God is God's will. And then they do receive Him, Christ as Lord.

Tiberius Lee · Nov 9, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"Anyone who can read can understand the biblical doctrine of election, as proven here: The purpose of Election

Even after all the long posts, IB hasn't provided any Scripture that teaches that salvation is by election."

Even this verse supports my belief, that election is to service. Just note the words: "I have chosen you and ordained you"

OK, who are the "us" in v.4? v.19 answers that: "us who believe". So, this verse also supports my belief, that Eph 1:4 teaches that God elects believers...to be holy and blameless. Again, this is for service, not salvation.

There is nothing here about being chosen for salvation.

2 things here. First, the word "chosen" here isn't the word related to election in all the other verses. In those "election" verses, the word is 'eklegomai', while, in this verse, the word is 'haireomai'.

Every election involves a choice.
But very few choices involve an election.

Now, I've addressed every verse provided. Please see the OP in the thread I referenced, and address how any of the examples of election were for salvation.

Every single verse I pointed here .. if you read in context all of them pointing to salvation and about the children of God.

Let’s look at Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Now let’s read it in context

Ephesians 1 : 2-14

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, [I say,] 11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of [God's] own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Tiberius Lee · Nov 9, 2017

Doug Melven said:
I think the Calvinists have a wrong conclusion of Total Depravity.

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

I don't deny Scripture saying unbelievers are totally depraved. But, there conclusion is wrong.
If an unbeliever sees the road they are on is taking them to hell and they do not want to spend eternity their they can make a selfish choice and choose God so they don't go their.
Or, if an unbeliever sees that only God can fill that eternal hole that God placed inside him and he makes a decision for God to fill that aching.
Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Titus 2:11 The Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.
2 Peter 3:9 God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

You are almost there - Total Depravity: in Romans 1

Romans 1:20-28 "For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: 25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due. 28 And even as they refused to have God in [their] knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: 32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

Doug Melven · Nov 9, 2017

sdowney717 said:
A man is sovereignly born again, born of God apart from his own will.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So those who are born again is not of their will, not of their choice. The reason a man is born of God is God's will. And then they do receive Him, Christ as Lord.

I think you missed an important step here. I highlighted it to emphasize it.
Step 1 God predestines us through His foreknowledge of knowing who will receive Him of there free will.
Step 2 We receive Him of our free will.
Step 3 Holy Spirit goes to work after His will and I no longer have a say in how the Holy Spirit is going to make me a child of God..

Personal example. My brother has a stump-grinding business and he occasionally needs my help.
The customer "received him" to do the work. Once they contracted with him to have the work done, they did not have a say in how it got done. They did not even know me, and in most cases never even saw me. All they know was that they contracted with my brother and the work got done.

If we do not have a choice whether to receive Him or not, but it is totally up to God as to who gets saved, then everybody would get saved.
2 Pet 3:9
The LORD is not willing that any should perish.
1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Is God going to willingly send people to hell according to these 2 Scriptures?

sdowney717 · Nov 9, 2017

Doug Melven said:
I think you missed an important step here. I highlighted it to emphasize it.
Step 1 God predestines us through His foreknowledge of knowing who will receive Him of there free will.
Step 2 We receive Him of our free will.
Step 3 Holy Spirit goes to work after His will and I no longer have a say in how the Holy Spirit is going to make me a child of God..

Personal example. My brother has a stump-grinding business and he occasionally needs my help.
The customer "received him" to do the work. Once they contracted with him to have the work done, they did not have a say in how it got done. They did not even know me, and in most cases never even saw me. All they know was that they contracted with my brother and the work got done.

If we do not have a choice whether to receive Him or not, but it is totally up to God as to who gets saved, then everybody would get saved.
2 Pet 3:9
The LORD is not willing that any should perish.
1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Is God going to willingly send people to hell according to these 2 Scriptures?

For the foreknown beloved of God this,

Psalm 139:15-17New King James Version (NKJV)
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!

2 Peter 3:9, any of WHO?

Doug Melven · Nov 9, 2017

Any of all.
The LORD is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The Greek word for all is "pas".
Strong's No.:
G3956
Greek:
πᾶς
Transliteration:
pas
Pronunciation:
pas
Definition:
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word;
all any 6
every the whole: - all (manner of means) alway (-s) any (one) X daily + ever every (one way) as many as + no (-thing) X throughly whatsoever whole whosoever.
That would mean everybody, not just the elect.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 10, 2017

Tiberius Lee said:
Every single verse I pointed here .. if you read in context all of them pointing to salvation and about the children of God.

Let’s look at Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Now let’s read it in context

Ephesians 1 : 2-14

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, [I say,] 11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of [God's] own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The election is specific in v.4. The "us" are believers, as defined in 1:19. The purpose of this election is for believers to be holy and blameless.

None of these verses says that election is to salvation. Nor any other verses.

I invite you (or anyone else) to address each point in my thread on the purpose of election to show where my error lies.

Tiberius Lee · Nov 10, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
The election is specific in v.4. The "us" are believers, as defined in 1:19. The purpose of this election is for believers to be holy and blameless.

None of these verses says that election is to salvation. Nor any other verses.

I invite you (or anyone else) to address each point in my thread on the purpose of election to show where my error lies.

You are right. The ‘us” are believers , as defined in 1:19 and only way you can be believers is if you are saved. So in another word “ those who are saved” chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 : But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Why I dislike Calvinism

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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