Question about Gift of Prophecy

Francis Drake

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False teaching is false prophecy.
No, true teaching is true teaching, and false teaching is false teaching.
Likewise true prophecy is true prophecy and false prophecy is false prophecy.

Its interesting how you constantly deny false teaching by simply calling it false prophecy. Instead of addressing the problem, you are just playing with words.

The demons of deception work equally in teaching as in prophecy or any other ministry label.
The issue is not the medium that gets used, but the man's pride that opens the door to the counterfeit spirits.
 
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Senkaku

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@GingerBeer

hmm, ok, so based on what you have referenced, it is clear that the only qualifications are that they receive visions and dreams. there is also no time framed mentioned as to when it stops here. so, anyone, according to this passage, that God gives dreams and visions to, is a prophet. also, in the other passage, we have a clear image of what a prophet is not. then again, the other passage makes it more difficult by admitting that they can say something that comes true, yet we do not follow. so the question becomes, is it possible to still receive visions and dreams from the Lord? if so, then prophecy, under God's description, in the verse you brought up, can still happen.

also, there is no time frame given for prophecy to cease other than the passage in 1 cor 13. Mind you the context though, it is sandwiched between chapters 12 and 14 which are all about the spiritual gifts. chapter 13 specifically is about love, maturity and gifts. no where in this context is the Word of God or Jesus mentioned, the word "perfect" being used is too vague, which means we need the context to better understand it. the only thing we have in the context that is clear, is that there is some sort of time frame with the words "now" and "then" being used. because of this being the only verse and it being vague, I don't think it is a verse any can use to say that prophecy has ceased as of now. the last verse kind of hints towards a full knowing which i don't think any of us have, even with the gift of prophecy to "know all mysteries". also important to point out, prophecy, tongues and KNOWLEDGE are all grouped together in this verse so to say prophecy and tongues have ceased and separate it from knowledge, then you are simply picking and choosing what you wish to do away with. thus, prophecy, tongues and knowledge would all have to cease together, you can not separate them.
 
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Senkaku

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@GingerBeer yeah, but they bring up more issues if you can't tell. the point of this topic is to "string this out", you don't get answers by just spouting opinions, we are trying to answer this with scripture are we not? I was merely pointing out your point for clarification so we can better define things.

so now, answer the question, is it possible to still receive visions and dreams from the Lord? if not, what verse tells us that we can not?
 
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Acts2:38

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Thanks for explaining this

Is the gift of Prophesy a miracle gift? and how was the gift of Prophesy used in the NT prior to the completion of the Bible...

One example found here, John 20:30-31.

Yes, prophesy is one of several gifts that ceased. Other examples are raising people from the dead, healing by touch instantly and without delay, speaking many different languages without any prior study/education (tongues). They no longer happen anymore. People can claim all they want all day long that they can do these things, but the bible is straight up telling us that they lie.

I am a cessastionalist myself, but the NT was cannonized around 180 AD?

Why would there but multiple chapters about something that was only in place for less than 100 years?

Canonized according to whom? Men?

No, scripture is "God breathed", perfect and canonized just as soon as it was written according to God (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The last book of the bible was finished in 95-96 AD by John, last of the apostles who was put into this category I would say, 2 Peter 1:20-21.

One is forced to either believe what 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 was foretelling or not. Believe what the bible says or not. I'm sure you know the implications of not believing in scripture are.
 
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Francis Drake

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The problem is that nobody alive today has received a gift of prophecy from God despite many claiming that they have.
That is the opinion of your human mind alone Ginger, and its a complete contradiction of the clear statements of scripture.

It is also completely contrary to those of us who have heard accurate prophetic words, or have maybe given such words.
For more than 50 years, I have lived and walked my spiritual life by hearing the prophetic whisper of God's breath in the ear of my spirit.
I also fellowship amongst like minded believers.

I have been guided by the Lord through all areas of life by prophecy, vision, dreams, rhema words, both in giving and receiving them. And yes, occasionally we get it wrong or misunderstand what is given.
I also started and built a successful business on the prophetic word.
So please don't tell me that God hasn't given the gift of prophecy for today.
Clearly you move in the wrong circles! Your absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence!

Just a fun example.-
Over 30 years ago, my son at less than 4 years old gave a prophetic word related to us buying a house.
We had just learned that the purchase had just fallen through and we were a little perplexed. When we got home he disappeared into his bedroom and a few moments later came out with the words, "Jesus says we are going to have that house and have it before we go to Norway!"

That referred to a 3 week trip we had planned for more than three months ahead. Shocked at my son's prophetic word, my wife and I checked back with the Lord, and He confirmed it to us.

So from that time forward we pestered the agent every few days to see whether his alternative sale had also fallen through. The agent got very annoyed with us, especially at the final Saturday when I went in to check one last time before we left on the Tuesday.

With faith in our hearts but still no news, Tuesday morning saw us frantically packing the camper and due to leave the house at 2pm precise.
Then at 12 noon the phone rang.
It was the agent, "The sale has fallen through, if you want to come in and sign the papers the house is yours."
We rushed madly into town and signed. "How did you know" he asked.
"Because God told us right at the beginning" was our answer.

So my three year old gave a prophetic word about a future event that had a deadline over three months hence. It came to pass exactly as the Lord stated just 2 hours short of the final possible deadline.
That has been the story of my walk with God.

Please do not tell me that prophecy is not for today as I and my friends have endless examples to prove you wrong.
 
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Senkaku

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also, it seems like 1 cor 13 is being used a lot here, other than this passage, where else does scripture say that it has ceased? mind you, the context is clear in 1 cor 13, being about gifts, love and maturity. no where in this verse does the context imply the written Word of God, only a time frame is clear here. this verse is not solid enough to use as a way to explain things have ceased, considering how vague the language is. not only that, prophecy, tongues and KNOWLEDGE are all grouped together, so if you say that tongues and prophecy have ceased, then you have to also say knowledge has as well, you can not separate them. I don't know about you guys but I don't think knowledge has ceased yet.
 
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swordsman1

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also, it seems like 1 cor 13 is being used a lot here, other than this passage, where else does scripture say that it has ceased?

In Eph 2:20 it says the Church was "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."

Are we still building the “foundation” today? If apostles are no longer around, then neither are prophets.

not only that, prophecy, tongues and KNOWLEDGE are all grouped together, so if you say that tongues and prophecy have ceased, then you have to also say knowledge has as well, you can not separate them. I don't know about you guys but I don't think knowledge has ceased yet.

It was not knowledge that ceased but rather the revelatory gift of words of knowledge.


The great Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones summed it up well:

Once these New Testament documents were written the office of a prophet was no longer necessary. . . In the history of the Church trouble has arisen because people thought that they were prophets in the New Testament sense, and that they had received special revelations of truth. The answer to that is that in view of the New Testament Scriptures there is no need of further truth. That is an absolute proposition. We have all truth in the New Testament, and we have no need of any further revelations. All has been given, everything that is necessary for us is available. Therefore if a man claims to have received a revelation of some fresh truth we should suspect him immediately. . . . The answer to all this is that the need for prophets ends once we have the canon of the New Testament. We no longer need direct revelations of truth; the truth is in the Bible. We must never separate the Spirit and the Word. The Spirit speaks to us through the Word; so we should always doubt and query any supposed revelation that is not entirely consistent with the Word of God. Indeed the essence of wisdom is to reject altogether the term “revelation” as far as we are concerned, and speak only of “illumination.” The revelation has been given once and for all, and what we need and what by the grace of God we can have, and do have, is illumination by the Spirit to understand the Word.
- Christian Unity (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p189– 91.
 
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Francis Drake

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In Eph 2:20 it says the Church was "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."

Are we still building the “foundation” today? If apostles are no longer around, then neither are prophets.

It was not knowledge that ceased but rather the revelatory gift of words of knowledge.
Its astonishing that you can't see the irony of your statement.

A few verses after your Ephesians2v20 quote, that same Paul also wrote,-
Eph4v11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

If prophets are no longer around, then neither are the other ministries, apostle evangelists pastors and teachers.
You cannot misuse scripture like that without it turning around and biting you in your concordance.
 
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Senkaku

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@swordsman1 hmm, not sure you read that fully, there is nothing in that passage that refers to anything ceasing. also, that passage refers to people being built up and not prophecy ceasing or even the offices ceasing. also, mind you that paul here was writing a letter to a church, NT didn't exist yet, so prophets and apostles here can be debated as to who he is referencing. the word apostle means "sent one" the word prophet means "messenger" so that can get sticky to go down that route, since there are no specifics here.

as far as knowledge goes, if revelatory knowledge has ceased, then we have a clash. as the Holy Spirit "teaches us ALL things" and "guides us in ALL truth". we still have the Holy Spirit don't we? is he bound by gifts? can we no longer receive knowledge because the gifts are gone? if the Holy Spirit gives us knowledge, why have a gift for it? why would a gift be for the church if it was only supposed to be for specific people? of course, i'm still waiting for another passage that says that it has ceased.
 
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swordsman1

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Its astonishing that you can't see the irony of your statement.

A few verses after your Ephesians2v20 quote, that same Paul also wrote,-
Eph4v11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

If prophets are no longer around, then neither are the other ministries, apostle evangelists pastors and teachers.
You cannot misuse scripture like that without it turning around and biting you in your concordance.

Oh, so you think apostles are still around today equipping the Church? The apostles equipped the church when they laid the foundation in the first century AD. After that they ceased. Their teaching is what remains and equips the church today.
 
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swordsman1

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@swordsman1 hmm, not sure you read that fully, there is nothing in that passage that refers to anything ceasing. also, that passage refers to people being built up and not prophecy ceasing or even the offices ceasing.

Well foundations are put in place at the beginning of a building. Once the foundation is complete you cease laying it. You don't lay another set of foundation stones half way up a building.

prophets and apostles here can be debated as to who he is referencing. the word apostle means "sent one" the word prophet means "messenger" so that can get sticky to go down that route, since there are no specifics here.

I think there can be little doubt it is referring to THE apostles (in the biblical sense of the word), and NT prophets.

as far as knowledge goes, if revelatory knowledge has ceased, then we have a clash. as the Holy Spirit "teaches us ALL things" and "guides us in ALL truth". we still have the Holy Spirit don't we? is he bound by gifts? can we no longer receive knowledge because the gifts are gone? if the Holy Spirit gives us knowledge, why have a gift for it? why would a gift be for the church if it was only supposed to be for specific people? of course, i'm still waiting for another passage that says that it has ceased.

It is not knowledge that ceased but the spiritual gift of "a word of knowledge" (1 Cor 12:8), that is revealed words of doctrinal knowledge passed on to a congregation. This is the gift that ceased along with prophecy when 'completeness' came shortly after the apostolic age. A church no longer needed such revelations of doctrine once they had the completed canon.

If you do word study of gnósis (knowledge), at www.biblehub.com/greek/strongs_1108.htm, you will see it is invariably associated with doctrinal knowledge. For example:

Luke 1:77 To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,

Rom 2:20 "having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,"

Rom 11:33 "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!"

1 Cor 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; [the doctrines about Christ presented in the previous verses]

2 Cor 2:14 "God... manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place."

2 Cor 4:6 "to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

2 Cor 10:5 "...destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, "

Phil 3:8 "resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

2 Peter 3:18 "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
 
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Senkaku

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Well foundations are put in place at the beginning of a building. Once the foundation is complete you cease laying it. You don't lay another set of foundation stones half way up a building.

thats your opinion, like I said, thats not in the passage when read in context.

I think there can be little doubt it is referring to THE apostles (in the biblical sense of the word), and NT prophets.

I'm not too sure about that one, since specifics are not laid out here. there are other prophets labeled in acts so is this referring to them as well? mind you, not every prophet had writings to follow them so it doesn't seem fair to build on their foundation if we have nothing from them to build on. also, are you referring to people that scripture specifically labels as apostles/prophets? or your assumption of who an apostle/prophet is? mind the context also, since he was writing to a church and NT wasn't out yet. without specifics, its hard to say here, we can only come up with opinions.

It is not knowledge that ceased but the spiritual gift of "a word of knowledge" (1 Cor 12:8), that is revealed words of doctrinal knowledge passed on to a congregation. This is the gift that ceased along with prophecy when 'completeness' came shortly after the apostolic age. A church no longer needed such revelations of doctrine once they had the completed canon.

as stated before, that passage is too vague and not good enough to use as a stance for the gifts to cease. the context is clear, but the language used is not. there is nothing of mention in the context of the written Word of God. the context is about, love, maturity and gifts. if you continue in that passage, you get to "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." so knowledge would be complete and not in part, thus, we wouldn't be having this conversation, since we'd all know.
 
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Francis Drake

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Oh, so you think apostles are still around today equipping the Church? The apostles equipped the church when they laid the foundation in the first century AD. After that they ceased. Their teaching is what remains and equips the church today.
That's just rampant unbelief talking.
The problem people of your persuasion have is that you pile up simple scripture words with mountain loads of tradition, that is just not there in the original Greek or Hebrew..
Take the word apostle.
Here is Strong's Concordance-
apostolos: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Original Word: ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Short Definition: an apostle, a messenger, an envoy, a delegate
Definition: a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 652 apóstolos (from 649 /apostéllō, "to commission, send forth") – properly, someone sent (commissioned), focusing back on the authority (commissioning) of the sender (note the prefix, apo); apostle.

That sounds a lot like a missionary to me.
If a missionary departs with the confidence that God has sent him to that destination, then his mission is apostolic.
If a missionary departs without knowing that God has sent him to that destination, then he is only representing himself or his mission group not God. He is not apostolic.

 
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OzSpen

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This is the Wayne Grudem perspective. But Peter's quote of Joel teaches us that New Testament prophecy was indeed like Old Testament prophecy, and this is reinforced by actual descriptions of prophecy, such as Acts of the Apostles 11:28 and Acts of the Apostles 21:10-11. And Wayne Grudem concedes that that kind of prophecy has ceased.

Are you sure that your Continuationist ideas don't prevent you from seeing the nature of NT prophecy?

Radagast,

Where is the quote from Joel in these 2 references you've given from the Book of Acts? Acts 2:16-21 refers to Joel's prophecy fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.

It's true that there was some predictive NT prophecy, as in the example you quoted of Agabus.

However, that is not the primary emphasis on the gift of prophecy as practised in the church:

But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy (1 Cor 14:3-5a NIV).​

Why do you ignore the role of strengthening, encouraging, comfort and edification in prophecy? These qualities were missing from your post.

As for my continuationist theology, it does not prevent my understanding of NT prophecy. For approx 10 years of my Christian life I was a cessationist because of the teaching of the Baptist church I attended. However, when I examined the Scriptures I could no longer accept the cessationist views of some leading evangelical lights.

I have been on both sides of this debate as a convinced believer in both perspectives, but I can't see cessationism in the biblical text, although 1 Cor 13:10 has been used by cessationists to try to make the conclusion of the canon the indicator of the discontinuation of the gifts of the Spirit - not just prophecy. I don't find that line of exposition convincing because of the context of 1 Cor 13:8-12, especially noting v. 12.

Remember that until Jesus returns, 'we know in part and we prophesy in part' (1 Cor 13:9).

Oz
 
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swordsman1

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thats your opinion, like I said, thats not in the passage when read in context.

I can't see how the word 'foundation' be seen in any other way.

I'm not too sure about that one, since specifics are not laid out here. there are other prophets labeled in acts so is this referring to them as well? mind you, not every prophet had writings to follow them so it doesn't seem fair to build on their foundation if we have nothing from them to build on. also, are you referring to people that scripture specifically labels as apostles/prophets? or your assumption of who an apostle/prophet is? mind the context also, since he was writing to a church and NT wasn't out yet. without specifics, its hard to say here, we can only come up with opinions.

The NT prophets who did not write scripture were still foundational to the 1st century churches who heard them, with them being God's authoritative messengers in the absence of a completed NT.

Eph 2:20 can only be referring to NT prophets. The only other possible alternative is the OT prophets, but it is hard to see how they could be the foundation of the New Testament church; and the same term 'apostles and prophets' in Eph 3:5 and 4:11 is undoubtedly referring to NT prophets.

as stated before, that passage is too vague and not good enough to use as a stance for the gifts to cease. the context is clear, but the language used is not. there is nothing of mention in the context of the written Word of God. the context is about, love, maturity and gifts. if you continue in that passage, you get to "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." so knowledge would be complete and not in part, thus, we wouldn't be having this conversation, since we'd all know.

It is indeed an obscure passage. It doesn't specifically identify what 'completeness' is, the two most common interpretations being the return of Christ and the completion of the canon. But Christ or his return is not mentioned either. When an in-depth analysis is carried out then the most plausible option of the two is the canon in my view.

The knowledge referred to in 1 Cor 13:12 is the same knowledge referred to in v8 and v9, ie the spiritual gift of a 'word of knowledge' (revealed doctrinal knowledge). When 'completeness' came the full extent of doctrinal knowledge to be revealed to mankind was complete.
 
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swordsman1

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Here is Strong's Concordance-
apostolos: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Original Word: ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Short Definition: an apostle, a messenger, an envoy, a delegate
Definition: a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 652 apóstolos (from 649 /apostéllō, "to commission, send forth") – properly, someone sent (commissioned), focusing back on the authority (commissioning) of the sender (note the prefix, apo); apostle.

That sounds a lot like a missionary to me.

Show me anywhere in the NT where the term "the apostles" is referring to anyone other than the 1st century apostles. Show me one respected commentator who says "the apostles" in Eph 4:11 is referring to everyday missionaries.
 
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OzSpen

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One example found here, John 20:30-31.

Yes, prophesy is one of several gifts that ceased. Other examples are raising people from the dead, healing by touch instantly and without delay, speaking many different languages without any prior study/education (tongues). They no longer happen anymore. People can claim all they want all day long that they can do these things, but the bible is straight up telling us that they lie.

Brother, why do you miss out the gift of teacher / teaching from this list? Remember the teaching of 1 Cor 12:27-30 that includes the gifts of teachers, helping and administration?

If the miraculous gifts ceased with the formation of the canon or at some other time, why are you being so selective and excluding teachers, helps and administration?

If you go to the list of gifts in Eph 4:11-12, if I follow your rule, the gifts of apostles and prophets have ceased but the gifts of evangelist and pastor-teacher continue. Sounds selective & arbitrary to me.

If the gifts ceased, ALL of them ceased but you wouldn't dare suggest that the evangelist and pastor-teacher have ceased.

That's why a consistent interpretation requires the continuation of all the gifts, including evangelist, pastor-teacher, tongues, prophecy, words of knowledge/wisdom, miracles, healing, etc.

Oz
 
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