Zoology & Mythological Creatures: Do You Feel Supernatural Life in Religions are real?

Gxg (G²)

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I probably would have liked it more in the 90s. I think the modern day has spoiled the fun of conspiracy theories and secret organizations.
You'd have to clarify that a bit for me. In the 90s, everything was a lot more fun :) But I am a child of the 80s/90s.
The early seasons of the show had excellent stories. While they primarily dealt with ghosts, they did occasionally encounter demons and various mythological creatures, but they were always treated as paranormal.
Are we talking on the 90s Ghostbusters cartoon show?
 
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awitch

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You'd have to clarify that a bit for me. In the 90s, everything was a lot more fun :) But I am a child of the 80s/90s.

That's true.
I just meant that today, everything is a false flag, fake news, Illuminati conspiracy, or any excuse not to change one's beliefs because they don't like contradictory evidence.

Are we talking on the 90s Ghostbusters cartoon show?

The Real Ghostbusters (aka, Slimer and the Real Ghostbusters) that ran from '86 to '92.
Not Extreme Ghostbusters that only ran in '97. That was a sequel series.
And definitely not the unrelated Filmation's Ghostbusters that only ran in '86. I pretend that one never existed.
 
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Zoness

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A lot of Pagan influence is overplayed sometimes, but it really is there in Christianity: The Catholic Church still preserves Roman provincial borders in some of its diocese; the Pope still carries the titulature Pontifex Maximus of pagan high priests; vestments still reflect Roman attire like the pallium; etc. Theologic influence is overstated, but hellenistic philosophic influence was marked, as you are well aware.

@Zoness it is sometimes a very peculiar manner how Christianity replaced the Pagan. German peasants still left bundles of wheat in their fields in the 19th century - presumably a pagan practice, but completely shorn of context. The same is also true of some traditional rhymes.
Some places like Lithuania, the pagan priests directly walked over into Christianity on the conversion of the Grand Duke; or Iceland where the Althing parliament debated whether they should convert or not, to forstall possible tensions, thus a largely pagan land instantaneously supposedly Christianised.
The fact is that pagan gods and myths still played a very large part in mediaeval society, although as pop-culture more than truth. Everyone still read Aesop's fables and even pseudo-history was based on Pagan models- such as Brutus, the son of Aeneas of Troy, being the founder of Britain.
We meet a lot of pagan mythology in Dante, with virtuous pagans in Limbo, the rivers of Hades such as Styx, Archeron, Phlegethon, etc. and chthonic Minos still sitting in judgement. Such eclecticism is very common in mediaeval texts, so to think Pagan conceptions were thrown out the window for Christian ones, is very flawed. Roman gods of Martianus Capella's Marriage of Philology and Mercury, were very much at the heart of mediaeval intellectual life. While not conceived in the same manner, the cultures merged, and over time some elements remained within the popular culture and others were jettisoned. The church played little part in this beyond underwriting some as truth, other as myth. Viking sagas and Irish mythology came to us from the pen of Church clerics, as the Church also copied and saved other pagan texts as the Western Empire fell as well. This was usually not in condemnation, but in celebration thereof.

On a side note: Temples were converted to Churches in much of the Empire, since after the public cults ended with Constantine's sucessors, these large state-run buildings stood empty. They were repurposed for the new state religion, transformed into law courts, or in extremis cannibalised for building materials.They did this with secular buildings too though, like Hadrian's mausoleum becoming the Castel Sant'Angelo or the Curia building becoming a Church. The Pantheon is a very good example of this.
This is how most temples survived. The Parthenon survived first as a Church, then a Mosque, until the Venetians blew it up in the 17th century. There was a rich tradition of Spolia, of repurposing decoration and building materials. The Arch of Constantine was largely cannibalised ftom older defunct buildings, for instance. This continued apace, with Temples being built into city walls or Churches. Lord Elgin taking the Parthenon marbles was busy with a human activity as old as the Pyramids (where they repurposed older kings' work as well, carving their own cartouches over previous ones).


Do you know the theory that the Firbolgs and Tuatha de Danaan reflect earlier historic invasions of Ireland? That a P-Celtic was overthrown by a Q-Celtic perhaps from Gallicia, as per the garbled Irish myths, which had itself overthrown a previous people. Etymologic substrate mapped to supposed mythic locations imperfectly support this contention.

This is how I think most of these things work. It is sort of Euhemeristic. We create grand mythologies from history, creating giants and ogres for Arthur to face, beyond his mundane Saxon foes. Most mythic beasts are also garbled accounts of real animals, for if you follow them back, you usually find a simple misunderstanding at the base that was magnified over time. I wrote a bit on the unicorn a while ago, as I find this an interesting idea:

How Zoology gave us the Unicorn


Lastly, Alien abduction and fairies - I like that too, as if 'thin places' still exist, but we interpret them more in line with our popular scientific culture instead of fairy realms or succubi, above and beyond materialist explanations like Sleep paralysis. I see no reason why we can't add layers of meaning according to context, have our Lovecraftian dimensions on top of Fisher King Castles while venturing into Acarnania to enter Hades.

I more or less agree with your assessment. I think people equate "pagan influence" in Christianity with all aspects which assuredly includes theology but I've sort of always disagreed with that. At least in modern paganism (which is substantially different and I'll be the first has no formal ties with historic faith); nature-worship and a usual lack of hell and damnation are pretty far away from what Christianity teaches.

In my observations, the Roman Catholic Church usually gets "pagan influence" as a stick beaten over its head by radical Protestants but I don't really see what the big deal is. I'm sure part of that is, given my own faith, I don't see "pagan" as an automatic black mark. Furthermore, having influence from something and being that thing aren't the same. The RCC is clearly a Christian organization, not a pagan one. Personally, I like the breadth and depth of ideas and history it has absorbed and worked with to build a cogent faith system. Even if I don't agree with it in pretty big ways.

Anyways, putting that aside: Yes I've heard theories that many of the mythic figures of Ireland stemmed from waves of invasions. This whole thing is made very complicated by the lack of formal writing systems in many of these societies so we're either going by best guess, writers who have an agenda or writers who are neutral but coming way after the fact. We simply don't know as much as we'd like to.

I find this story on /r/AskHistorians about Fakse-Brokke, the last "god" (or maybe saint?) worshiped in Norway as the official end of paganism there, to be very interesting.

I'm glad that early Christianity avoided the iconoclastic tendency to destroy things from other religions, I'm glad we have the Parthenon now.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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He did rely on travellers reports for lesser known animals, like the Asian Rhinoceros, with a few errors here and there - thus inadvertedly creating the European Unicorn for instance. It is however not a bestiary of the mediaeval type. Aristotle did not add creatures he thought too fantastic to exist or that he couldn't verify from trusted sources. It is a work of Empiricism, in short.
Not certain if you knew of it @Quid est Veritas? , but they actually had a discovery back in 2008 of a unicorn like deer. As said there:

A deer with a single horn in the center of its head - much like the fabled, mythical unicorn - has been spotted in a nature preserve in Italy, park officials said today.

'This is fantasy becoming reality,' Gilberto Tozzi, director of the Center of Natural Sciences in Prato said.

'The unicorn has always been a mythological animal.'


Enlarge
Mystery: The one-year-old Roe Deer - nicknamed "Unicorn'' - was born in captivity in the Tuscan town of Prato, near Florence

The one-year-old Roe Deer - nicknamed, unsurprisingly, 'Unicorn' - was born in captivity in the research centre's park in the Tuscan town of Prato, near Floren
ce.


 
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Gxg (G²)

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And yes, @Quid est Veritas? , I forgot to mention that when it comes to mythological creatures like mermaids, I am not too surprised at the possibilities when seeing what has already been seen in humans TODAY. The Sea Gypsies come immediately to my mind when seeing how much they have literally baffled many with the ways they have challenged so many in the world of science.




sea-gypsies.jpg



As said best elsewhere:
http://mywanderlist.com/2014/03/06/secret-lives-sea-gypsies-living-sulawesi-indonesia/

There's also the way science today has shown ways to potentially give humans unique abilities, more shared here in Could man breathe underwater? Scientists eye possibility of merging human and algae DNA | Daily Mail Online


@Zoness and I have discussed this before when it comes to the ways that there were earlier forms of science in medieval times and some of those things are now being rediscovered, even though it is possible that such things led to many of the myths we have today once the knowledge was forgotten.




I feel you @Quid est Veritas? :) Personally, one of my favorite things to examine are mermaids. ...I do think mermaids are cool concepts, especially when seeing cultures treating what's called the MerWorld as legends and even noting that legends have legends. As I told @Zoness earlier, there are so many things about the world we do not know about - including life that may have adapted to other environments. The way they were often portrayed in media may have made a difference...

Years ago, I saw "Pirates of the Caribbean 4" and I highly enjoyed many aspects of it. But something that stood out to me in the film was how they seemed to be more open about spirituality from a Biblical perspective.

In example, one of the main characters is named Philip. He's a missionary and he was trying to teach the pirates about the Lord, even though they mocked him continually.....and when it came to his desiring to reach them, they tried to use him as bait to lure some mermaids that they needed.

Many were shocked to see the way that mermaids were depicted within the film, though its actually closer to how folklore described them. For Like the sirens, mermaids are incredibly beautiful women–incredibly seductive women–that lure men to their deaths.

A mermaid's greatest weapon was her radiant appearance.....and though they are women, they were also animal. The water line defines where they're women and where they’re creatures. Under the water, they are creatures and over the water, they're women. They were known to feed on the men, and that’s how they see men, as something that sustains them. They may look lovely, but they can shred a human limb from limb in seconds.

With Philip, it seemed that his fate was sealed when the mermaids attacked.....and yet, when he was almost about to be killed by an explosion elsewhere, one mermaid saved him. Though she's depicted as good, she is captured nonetheless by the pirates - and the rest of the film shows how Philip and the mermaid began to fall in love.

It was a conflict for Philip since he was a priest/missionary and trained to think that only men had souls/relationship with the Divine.

Such beauty. Surely you are one of God's own creations...and not a descendant of those dark creatures who found no refuge on the Ark. Such beauty...and yet deadly."

"Deadly. No."

Philip Swift and Syrena

Inspired by her beauty, Philip began to fall deeply in love with the mermaid, whom he names Syrena, to make the crew see her as a person and not a monster. Syrena began to fall in love with him as well, seeing him as different—not like the other men she dealt with.

For there are many things that were once thought to be impossible that were seen to be possible later on in history when gaining more information. Of course, depending on how much one likes science and the study of cryptid zoology - such as seeking out creatures thought to be unknown such as giant squids, bigfoot/yeti, thunderbird and many other things discussed in cultural histories - that may make a difference. I don't expect all others to agree, but I do think scripture gives basis for showing how much mixture between species did occur - and on the issue, it is something to consider if such things would've been able to look to the Lord.

Half human, half animal myths are common - and it may be that they're common for a reason beyond simple imagination. From the Greek Mythological depictions to the Egyptians, each of them seems to advocate and portray powerful creatures that were mixed....and as recently discovered, there are 4000 year old cave painting on the outskirts of Sydney that resemble Egyptian gods. How could a race of people cut off from the world have the same images as that of the ancient Egyptians, unless they were viewing the same thing. Could all the cultures have drawn the same creatures because they saw them with their own eyes? Possibly

Thr Book of Enoch, discussing how corruptions of breeding/genetics were common in the days of the Flood

As it is, We're going back there rather quickly, in light of all of the genetic experimentation on humans/animals and mixing them together...and others have wondered if those mixtures would be automatically lost by default.

For me, when I consider what happened in the era of Genesis 6 and the Flood - with the Watchers violating their roles/stepping outside their authority to corrupt mankind - I have to consider the way that man was very advanced/capable of doing a lot of things.....many of which we're JUST now catching back up to in our era.

It has often been pointed out that early man may have been more intelligent than many realize...for there have been many scientific discussions on the capabilities of man back in early Human History and how many of the monuments that man made then (i.e. The Pyramids, The Easter Island Statues, STONE Henge, etc) could never have been made without the very advanced technology that we have available today - making others wonder just how advance we were back in early days and what exactly was lost. I think personally that we'd be amazed at how much what we have today may have been nothing compared to what they had then. For man to name ALL of the animals that GOd brought him in Genesis 2 and be a zoologist/botanist and gardener, one would have to think that man was truly brilliant..and there's no reason to think that brilliance went away after the FALL.

If man was truly a scientific GENIUS during his creation and able to do things that we've only dreamed of because of his perfection, naturally, he would have been capable of doing ennormous feats of power that many are either just now discovering over the recent centuries...or realizing that there's more to learn/go with.

And due to man's wickedness, its interesting to see what he's capable of when he tries to cross barriers. There's a book that I remember coming across called The Island of Dr Moreau---a very dark tale of a man named Dr. Moreau who learned how to successfully use human DNA in animals to make them more humanlike and regress their animal instincts.

Every time my mother and I discussed the book/film, we automatically thought of Genesis 6 and why the Lord decided to wipe out men in the Flood. For there may've been MANY things occurring that should NEVER have occurred.

My own mother and I have often discussed the issue of how it seems to be the case that the "heroes of old" in Genesis 6 seems to be in reference to where all of the great world religions get their stories and mythologies----be it with the creatures and gods from Greek Mythology, the Egyptian Gods, werewolves, vampires, fairies , mermaids, and many other mythological creatures that were encountered.....and in our view, whereas some of them came about as a result of angelic having mixed offspring, others may have been developed due to man getting involved in the dark arts/sciences and learning how to manipulate himself so that he could gain abilities that other creatures had.

Its possible that man was advanced enough to learn/know how to use his DNA to mix with others and create certain things........and perhaps this knowledge was simply lost after the Fall. Perhaps it was by God's design that man lost that knowledge.

On Genesis 6, its more than possible that man was doing genetic experimentation even then...and corrupt man may have discovered how to manipulate creation to create other hybrid creatures from which all folklore comes from today. For some examples of experimentation that could occur:
  • Man + Goat = Satyr
  • Man + Horse = Centaur
  • Man + Bull = Minotaur
  • Bird + Horse = Pegasus
  • Bird + Lion = Griffin
  • Man + Fish = Mermaid
The list can go on...and as said earlier, its not as if early man just thought to sit down/think up some of these things. They had to have gotten inspiration from somewhere.

centaurs.jpg

And on the ways that DIVINE beings violated their posts and did damage to our world with experimentations, I have to say that such things should not be considered beyond our realm of understanding. Steve Collins (who's a Messianic Christian) had some very interesting insights on the issue-

And with the mermaid issue I mentioned earlier, Years ago, I researched at what point the entire concept of "Dagon" came into being during the history of Israel. From what I understand, Dagon was a Canaanite god of grain adopted by the Philistines. As noted earlier, the Philistine god Dagon was represented with a half man, half fish figure, and was said to be the father of Baal. This deity was a personification of the generative and vivifying principle of nature, for which the fish with its innumerable multiplication was especially adapted, to set forth the idea of the giver of all earthly good.




Something interesting I discovered was seen in an excerpt from Dagon: The Philistine Fish God - Associates for Biblical Research. As said there:

Question: In the book of Judges, we read how the Israelites served “Baal and Ashtaroth”, pagan gods of the various nations (Judges 2:11-13), but Dagon, the god of the Philistines, is mentioned by name and often depicted as a “fish-god”. How is Dagon different than the other idols?

Answer: Dagon was originally a Semitic deity, adopted by the Philistines after they invaded Canaan, ca. 1177 BC. We have records of Dagon dating to the 3rd dynasty of Ur in the 25th Century BC. Dagon was very popular among the Amorites, among whom “Dagon” is a component of many personal names, and Assyrians.

Most scholars argue that he was originally a vegetation, grain and wheat, deity. The name is very similar to the Hebrew word for “grain”, dāgān. This would create an interesting irony in the Samson narratives, as Samson was forced to grind wheat for the Philistines (Judges 16). However, some descriptions seem to make Dagon a storm-god, possibly in connection with the need of rain for the wheat and grain harvest.

However, Dagon in iconography Dagon is often presented as fish-god. This depiction has survived the centuries and is quite controversial. The reason it has survived is the similarity of the name to the Hebrew term dâg, meaning “fish”. This connection was first popularized by Rashi, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki (AD 1040-1105), author of an extensive commentary on the Tanakh. He imagined, based on this connection to the Hebrew term dâg, that Dagon was in the shape of a fish.

David Kimhi (AD 1160-1235), Medieval Rabbi and Bible Commentator, expanded upon the interpretation of Rashi. In his comments on 1 Samuel 5, wherein the Philistines placed the Ark with Dagon, he interpreted the statement “only the flat part was left to him” (1 Samuel 5:4) as meaning “only the form of a fish was left”. He reasoned that since the text mentions “hands”, Dagon was in the in the form of a fish from the waist down, hence the name, and in the form of a man from the waist up. One must note that the LXX mentions both hand and feet.

In 1928, H. Schmökel argued that Dagon was never a “fish-god”, half-man and half-fish. However, once his cult became important to the sea-faring and maritime peoples, such as the Phoenicians and Philistines, the false connection to dâg (fish) had a powerful impact on Dagon’s iconography. Some scholars still insist that this merman image, half-man and half-fish, is a secondary aspect to this god of the Philistines. The Philistines were a powerful part of the invasion of the “Sea Peoples” who swept the Eastern end of the Mediterranean basin ca. 1200 BC. Therefore, a god with aquatic aspects could prove to be an important part of their pantheon.

Overall, Dagon is represented somewhat differently than other gods in Judges. This is because he is linked to the Philistines, who seemed to have adopted Dagon very early, one of the most hated enemies of YHWH and Israel. The Philistines represented a more menacing type of threat than the local Canaanites who had inhabited the Promised Land. With their political and military organization the Philistines were a viable threat to wipe out Israel and thwart complete possession of the land. Their importance is fully seen in that, according to 2 Samuel 5, their defeat was a key to the establishment of Davidic power.



As it concerns the subject of mythological creatures like "mermaids", others may disagree...but IMHO, it'd seem that it may be possible for such creatures of man/fish mixtures to have survived/been around even into the time of the Conquests of Cannan since the apperance of Dagon was around that era ( Judges 16:22-24, etc ) and afterward ( 1 Samuel 5:1-3, 1 Samuel 5 , 1 Chronicles 10:9-11 / 1 Chronicles 10, etc )----and perhaps it was the case that such creatures existed/gave room for others making idols out of them.


That said, I've seen many give an explanation for what was seen historically with mermaids. The seal dynamic is something that has been discussed alongside saying that manatees and sea cows were mistaken for mermaids....though the depictions of mermaids in mythology were far from simple observing from a distance. With the Seal dynamic, mermaids were also known as selkies, animals that can transform themselves from seals to humans..

For the sake of technicality, a mermaid (from the Middle English mere in the obsolete sense 'sea' + maid(en) is a legendary aquatic creature with the head and torso of human female and the tail of a fish. The male version of a mermaid is called a merman; the gender-neutral collective noun is merfolk. Various cultures throughout the world have similar figures.

In some ancient cultures Mermaids were regarded as semi-divine aspects of the Goddess, connected to the sea from which life arises and honoured in seaside temples. The earliest Mermaid story comes from Assyria around 1000 BCE. Atargatis, an Assyrian priestess, jumpred into the sea to wash away the shame of an unwanted pregnancy and emerged as a fishtailed goddess. In the 2nd century BCE, the Greek historian Lucian reported that the statue of the Great Goddess at the temple of Hieropolis (which is now modern Turkey) had a fishtail instead of legs. In Greece, Aphrodite, the goddess of love, as born from the sea foam and rode to land on a half-scallop shell.

In the 1st century CE, Pliny wrote convincingly of the existence of Mermaids, but said that their bodies were 'rough and scaled all over'. But by the 5th century CE, the bestiary Physiologus described Mermaids in terms that accord fully with their contemporary image. Mermaids are 'wonderfully shaped as a maid from the navel up and fish from the navel down'.

So who knows what was playing out fully
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I'm glad that early Christianity avoided the iconoclastic tendency to destroy things from other religions, I'm glad we have the Parthenon now.
Interestingly enough, it does seem to be a reverse process in our times where a Post-Christian society does not seem to want to embrace things from the religion of Christianity and seems iconoclastic at points.

Part of me wondered the other day what would happen if the world was wiped out and things started over.
 
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Zoness

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I agree....

As an aside, have ever heard of a show called Roswell Conspiracies: Aliens, Myths and Legends ?

It was an animated program that originally aired in 1999 and he show's premise was that aliens had been living among humans for ages, and were the origins of many of the creatures humans know from myth, folklore and legends, including vampires and werewolves.

I have not seen it but I will add it to my queue to check out.

Part of me, @Zoness , still cracks up when considering what it'd be like if such creatures came back into view again and were part of the conversations occurring. Imagine the discussion on the bathroom issue, LOL.


No kidding. I can imagine both a lot of good and bad coming out of such a reality. Although decidedly gritty and cyberpunk, I like some of the ideas presented in the universe of the famous table top game Shadowrun. The world is very dark since the re-introduction of magic in that world exacerbates existing human conflicts among nations and peoples. There's a lot of diversity but also racism and xenophobia, its a pretty interesting setting.​

Sadly, we've already begun entering into the 6th Mass Extinction event on Earth. T

The amount of bio diversity lost is saddening and it is amazing to consider the ways that such things have occurred on our watch. I would not be surprised if other creatures before went through the same things - and if, at some point, creatures like the Tiger will be seen as a mythological creature generations from now. Of course, our world is not as spiritual in outlook as it was in antiquity and that means even having a concept of MYTH may not be as strong in the future...if we keep emphasizing science.
Essentially, it was the aspect of what happens when the Wild West ceases to be wild because folks encounter one another/build over time...


Part of me thinks on what occurred when it came to the rise of Christianity in areas and people making a case for the old ways to die out and it being a competition...

The sixth mass extinction is a sad thing to behold, indeed. Earth has went through blooms of life in geological epochs in the past so I assume its reasonable that it MIGHT happen again? I suppose the big limiting factor here is humanity's impact on the world. And I think you're right about the western world especially but it was my understanding that the global south is becoming more religious in general. Of course religion and spirituality aren't always the same thing and I suspect science will continue to permeate modern religion.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I was in Rome two weeks ago, and was really intrigued by the history behind the Pantheon--that old Roman temple only survived because it was converted into a church, so the question of how much of paganism was preserved rather than destroyed by Christianity is certainly an interesting one. Between repurposed places of worship, co-opted holidays, and perhaps even ritualistic similarities, I do wonder how much of the pagan world survives in Christianity. You do get fullblown Neoplatonic mysticism in certain traditions,
Technically, there were Pagan aspects in the OT as well - so the dynamic of cultures merging is not a NEW reality or a recent one.

Interestingly enough, when seeing the ways pagan aspects were present within many of the Biblical Festivals themselves as well as Jewish culture, it does make you wonder. Many of the Feasts had elements directly in line with agricultural celebrations/festivals of the Cannanites...and there's a reason many Jewish scholars note how much of Ancient Israel borrowed elements/reinterpreted them at the direction of the Lord. Pagan feasts were celebrated around the same time of the year as was Passover...and in regards to things like Sabbath, it was already the case in Babylonia, long before the Exodus account, that the days Sabbath was done on were also done by Babylon...not for the sake of rest but rather because certain days were seen as unlucky days. For a good read on the issue:


Additionally, as another believer noted best when discussing the issue of aspects of CHristmas people say are "pagan" and yet ignore where the same was present in Israel:

If you’ve ever taken a study trip to Israel, one of the first sites you most likely saw was Gezer, only a few miles from the airport in Tel Aviv.

There you will find a group of ancient standing stones (matzebot in Hebrew) that date from 1500 BC, when the Canaanites were in the land of Israel. They were part of the ancient practice of erecting stone pillars at pagan worship sites, and were often involved in worship of heavenly bodies.

The practice dates from at least 5000 BC. Many sacred stone sites from 3000 BC and older can still be found in the Negev and Sinai desert, as well as around Europe and elsewhere. Stonehenge, from around 2500 BC, is another example.

In theory, the pillar monument at Gezer should not be standing right now. God gave the Israelites explicit instructions to destroy all of the pagan standing stones in Israel:

“Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones (matzebot) and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.” (Deuteronomy 12:3)
But Gezer was a very strategic city and only rarely were Israelite kings in control of it (Judges 1:29, 1 Kings 9:16). So during very little of Israel’s ancient history could they have knocked down the stones of Gezer.

Interestingly, Jacob used this practice to worship God after he had the vision of the heavenly staircase. There he erected a stone, anointed it, dedicated it to God and called it Bethel (Genesis 28:18-28). Even more surprisingly, after the Israelites crossed the Jordan, God himself commanded them to set up twelve stones to be a memorial to the miracle God did there. The text says,

“When your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, `What are these stones?’ then you shall inform your children, saying, `Israel crossed this Jordan on dry ground.’ “For the LORD your God dried up the waters of the Jordan before you until you had crossed, just as the LORD your God had done to the Red Sea, which He dried up before us until we had crossed; that all the peoples of the earth may know that the hand of the LORD is mighty, so that you may fear the LORD your God forever.” (Joshua 4:21-24)
Erecting standing stones, masebot, has been a pagan practice for millennia. Stonehenge is one example, the monoliths at Gezer are another. In Deuteronomy God instructs the Israelites to tear down those in the land (12:3) and not to put them up themselves because God *hates* them (16:2). But in Joshua, God specifically instructs the tribes to erect 12 standing stones (masebot) after they enter the land, in order to commemorate God’s action there. (Joshua 4:21-24) And Jacob erects stones at various places where he has an encounter with God, and this is considered an act of faithful worship (Gen 28:18 for example).

But on the other hand, when a practice that God himself instituted becomes idolatrous, he abolishes it. In the desert, God told the Israelites to construct the bronze snake so that those who looked upon it would be healed (Numbers 21:8). But later in history, the bronze snake was used as an idol, so it had to be destroyed. (2 Kings 18:4).

In both cases, a ritual’s origins were not a part of the decision as to whether it should be encouraged or stopped. What was important was how it was being used at the time, either to honor God or to worship idols.
O I've always been pretty sad about the diminishment of certain mythological figures. The Tuatha Dé Danann dwindle away until all that's left is leprechauns, the Ljósálfar make way for fairies and Christmas elves. It's pretty interesting if you take Saint Patrick's approach and say that maybe this happened specifically because the pagan gods were domesticated metaphysically by Christianity, though.
This theme has come up several times before in media presentations on medieval times when showing how Christianity was a massive upheaval for belief in the "Old Ways" as it was said.

Some of this I and @Zoness have spoken on before when seeing how some seem to have extended this principle/supposed that prominent aspects of Christendom have been effectively "borrowed" from other cultures, such as whenever people say things like the Virgin Mary shows how the Mother Goddess isn't dead and has reincarnated herself in the form of Mary (seen even in film series such as "The Midsts of Avalon" when describing the development of Camelot and Christianity in competition with Paganism).....or saying that the Christ story was a reinvention of older legends. Neither seem to hold much weight when studied very closely, of course...especially in regards to the Virgin Birth, despite the many differing stories with similarities to it in other religions (more discussed here).

Nonetheless, there was an historic principle with paganism in reimagining oneself in order to transition into a new era where one can come out of hiding/regain what they had in another time before they were pushed underground...as occurred with many of the gods/idols other nations followed.

For many, the ways of peace offered by CHristianity simply mirrored what was practiced in their own nature-based religions.....and they were content with that.

And thus, one has to be careful not to overgeneralize when it comes to the interactions of Paganism and Christianity. Some of this has been shared before, as seen here:

For myself, when seeing the Animistic spirituality aspect, I couldn't help but be reminded on Christianity and the ways others for it have addressed.....for many are not aware of the ways that Christ addresses Folk Religions..

And in the event you've not heard of it, Christian Animism is something many have noted over the years more and more.... as seen in Defining an Animistic Worldview : The Missiology Homepage and Animism: The Default Religion of the World - Missions Mandate and Animism: - International Journal of Frontier Missions


Read a really amazing book on the issue recently called "Along the Silk Road" as it concerns the Silk Road - and it was amazing seeing the different religions that came together/interacted, as well as how they developed - from animism to theism. From Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan to Tajikistan ...to Kashgar, China, to Istanbul, Turkey and so many others pertaining to the peoples of Central Asia and their rich cultures. ...and religious experiences...


Whenever I watched LoK, it reminded me of the ways that there always seems to be a lot of interaction with Animism, Secularism and Theism - Theism not being seen as much in LoK but the other two seeming to interact with one another....and with Theism, I couldn't help but consider the ways that it best addresses the issue of Amimism and Secularism. In many respects...Animistic salvation is utilitarian, selfish, human-directed, and this-worldly....for an animist is chiefly concerned with self as he he seeks power to fulfill his own earthly needs (much as the people in Korra's world sought to appease the spirits in order to have them off their backs) - but conversely, Christian salvation is a response to grace, altruistic and self-giving, God-focused, and includes the immediate as well as the eternal. For a Christian, unlike the earthly focused animist, seeks to fulfill the purposes of God.

Having to do a research project on St. Patrick, I was recently amazed at the ways he went about handling it. For Christianity had a toe-hold in Ireland before Patrick, but the religion in Ireland before Patrick was animism IN ADDITION to belief in superstition, omens, soothsaying, magic, curses and the power of sacred places.

Like the people in Korra's universe when it came to the spirits, the Irish also believed many unpredictable supernatural forces – including shape shifting hidden dangers. Patrick too believed in supernatural force but all coming from a good and loving God. At one point, Patrick made his way to the Hill of Tara, Co. Meath, seat of the high king of Ireland. Arriving on the eve of Easter, he lit a paschal fire on the nearby Hill of Slane. At this time of year, it was pagan practice to put out all fires before a new one was lit at Tara. When the druids at Tara saw the light from Slane, they warned King Laoghaire that he must extinguish it or it would burn forever...but. Patrick was summoned to Tara, and on the way he and his followers chanted the hymn known as "The Lorica" or "Saint Patrick's Breastplate".

Although Laoghaire remained a pagan, he was so impressed by the saint that he gave him permission to make converts throughout his realm. Muirchu's Life of Patrick, written two centuries later, describes a contest of magic in which Laoghaire's druids had to concede victory to the saint. And later Patrick travelled widely in Ireland, making converts and establishing new churches, though he eventually made his headquarters at Armagh.

There's a lot that can be seen with the vibrant gospel witness of Celtic Christians. With St. Patrick, his evangelizing the pagans of Ireland has much to be commended for our day since they lived in Christian community while living in close proximity to those who worshipped many gods. By voice of their preaching and example of gospel living together in good works, Celtic Christianity spread rapidly over Ireland. Their faith was alive to creation with God the Trinity as the great creator. Their theology was very practical and suited to a simple farming people and they did not deal in some of the abstract theologizing that lead to debate throughout the empire. They were faithful to the truth but contextualized it for the agrarian Celts whose historical ties were deep with creation. This is seen powerfully in the Irish prayer known as “Saint Patrick’s Breastplate” (mentioned earlier) dating to perhaps a century or so after Patrick. Though the form that survives most likely is not from the pen of Patrick, yet it certainly encapsulates the Christian faith he established amongst this once barbarous people. It is a prayer dancing with both God and the natural world and ends with a phrase familiar to many who have heard of Patrick.
Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me, Christ below me, Christ above me, Christ to the right of me, Christ to the left of me, Christ where I lie, Christ where I sit, Christ where I stand, Christ in the heart of everyone who thinks of me, Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me, Christ in every eye which sees me, Christ in every ear which hears me.
More can be found in the book entitled "How the Irish Saved Civilization " by Thomas Cahill ...excellent study


As he noted:
The difference between Patrick’s magic and the magic of the druids is that in Patrick’s world all beings and events come from the hand of a good God, who loves human beings and wishes them success.....

This magical world, though full of adventure and surprise, is no longer full of dread. Rather, Christ has trodden all pathways before us, and at every crossroads and by every tree the Word of God speaks out. We have only to be quiet and listen, as Patrick learned to do during the silence of his novitiate; as a shepherd on the slopes of Sliabh Mis. | This sense of the world as holy, as the Book of God as a healing mystery, fraught with divine messages could never have risen out of Greco-Roman civilization, threaded with the profound pessimism of the ancients and their Platonic suspicion of the body as unholy and the world as devoid of meaning....

It seems that as some point in the development of every culture, human sacrifice becomes unthinkable, and animals are from then on substituted for human victims. At all events, the Irish had not reached this point and were still sacrificing human beings to their gods when Patrick began his mission. Patrick declared that such sacrifices were no longer needed. Christ has died once for all. Yes, the Irish would have said, here is a story that answers our deepest needs and answers them in a way so good that we could never even have dared dream of it. We can put away our knives and abandon our altars. These are no longer required. The God of the Three Faces has given us his own Son, and we are washed clean in the blood of this lamb. God does not hate us; he loves us. Greater love than this no man has than that he should lay down his life for his friends. That is what God's Word, made flesh, did for us. From now on, we are all sacrifices but without the shedding of blood. It is our lives, not our deaths that this God wants. But we are to be sacrifices, for Paul adds to the hymn this advice to all: Let this [same] mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.












 
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Gxg (G²)

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That's true.
I just meant that today, everything is a false flag, fake news, Illuminati conspiracy, or any excuse not to change one's beliefs because they don't like contradictory evidence.
True enough...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I have not seen it but I will add it to my queue to check out..
@Zoness ,you'd appreciate it.

No kidding. I can imagine both a lot of good and bad coming out of such a reality. Although decidedly gritty and cyberpunk, I like some of the ideas presented in the universe of the famous table top game Shadowrun. The world is very dark since the re-introduction of magic in that world exacerbates existing human conflicts among nations and peoples. There's a lot of diversity but also racism and xenophobia, its a pretty interesting setting.​

Sounds like a very interesting concept. Essentially, magic became a means of empowering corrupt groups in humanity or those who were marginalized - and it led to more problems. It's interesting because I thought on something recently with what another said elsewhere:


Common fantasy trope is, that members of one fantasy group hate members of different group. For example: Elves hate dwarves. But in most fantasy setups, it is never shown that dwarves would hate another members from same group.

For scope of this question, lets define terms:

  • Racism: A belief that quality of different member of a society can be determined by color of the skin of such member. Also a belief, that basically says: "My skin color is the best"
  • Shapism: A belief that member of one group has different qualities than member of another group. Simply put: "Mine race is the best."
Now imagine that I would like to have "fantasy people of colour," in meaning that any fantasy race can have members of different skin colors.

So, how can you form a mindset where you do not see the skin color, but see "shape" of that person?

For basic setup, assume classic fantasy world, no magic. Assume a place where all races meet, and all skin colors are present (A city which is used mainly for trade).....Racism is a symptom of tribalism. People tend to want to band together into groups of similar individuals to collectively protect their interests. While now, in the USA, racism is the big divider, a century ago the Anglo-Saxons hated the Germans and the Italians and the Irish. Since all of them are now considered "white" peoples, modern-day racist Anglo-Saxons ignore them, because they are part of the tribe....In the Shadowrun setting this is a briefly touched on topic. The Magic returns to the world, and a number of humans are changed into fantasy races (orks, trolls, dwarves, elves) while still retaining their skin-color and ethnic race traits. I'm not too familiar with the earlier Shadowrun lore, but in the recent PC releases of Shadowrun Returns and Dragonfall, ethnic racism is almost nonexistent since fantasy race has more real world impact. If anything, that setting has replaced ethnic racism with fantasy racism.
The sixth mass extinction is a sad thing to behold, indeed. Earth has went through blooms of life in geological epochs in the past so I assume its reasonable that it MIGHT happen again?
Nothing new...

I suppose the big limiting factor here is humanity's impact on the world. And I think you're right about the western world especially but it was my understanding that the global south is becoming more religious in general. Of course religion and spirituality aren't always the same thing and I suspect science will continue to permeate modern religion
Science is a religion in/of itself with how folks treat it. Especially in the quest to take away myth's allure and explain everything in physical terms. And on the world, humanity has had a massive impact
 
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The sixth mass extinction is a sad thing to behold, indeed. Earth has went through blooms of life in geological epochs in the past so I assume its reasonable that it MIGHT happen again? I suppose the big limiting factor here is humanity's impact on the world. And I think you're right about the western world especially but it was my understanding that the global south is becoming more religious in general. Of course religion and spirituality aren't always the same thing and I suspect science will continue to permeate modern religion.
We have to stay aware
 
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No telling what creatures were totally destroyed after the flood due to the the REAL "climate change".

Honestly, thinking on it the other day, I believe 100% Dragons were real and I would be curious as to the differing types that existed. I know there are real creatures in life that the myths may have been based on:

That said, it'd be interesting to see how the diversity would look like if there were bigger specimens

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chinese-dragons.jpg




 
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drjean

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What we call dinosaurs did not all die out after the flood (from changes in atmosphere going to full sun) because there are pictograms of them on Mayan temples, and toy ones found with mummies in Egypt!

From what I've seen pulled from the very deep waters, and from video from down there, surely there are leviathans and dinosaurs here!
 
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FredVB

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As a believer, I can expect immortal beings, angelic or demonic, could appear at some time in unusual supernatural forms. Also we don't know all living kinds in this world, more kinds keep being found and will be found, purported creatures, such as bigfoot, may well be found soon. Certainly dinosaurs were existing and any dragons correspond to or are related to some of them.
 
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Gxg (G²) said:
There's so much variety in nature...

awitch said:
Evolution is pretty neat that way.

However it is explained, there is such variety that more living things are being found, even new separate kingdoms of life. And I do think it is really possible that silicon based earthen life exists and could be found.
 
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