If Cessationism is not true then-

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Where are all the healers healing the sick and wounded in hospitals today?

Shouldn't this be a common occurrence?

Not talking about prophesying, but healing
One of my three bonafide miracles is a healing. When I bring it up to other Christians it is amazing how many people come back with their own testimony.

Miracles are kinda like UFO sightings. That is, nobody talks about it, but over time, a LOT of people have had them. You just have to discover it by word of mouth and personal discussions.
 
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Tayla

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Where are all the healers healing the sick and wounded in hospitals today?

Shouldn't this be a common occurrence?
Q: If Cessationism is not true then where are all the healers?
A: If healing was today a common occurrence then Cessationism is not true. People report genuine miracles; are they legitimate? I don't know, maybe. If there are genuine miracles then Cessationism is not true.

As a charismatic we prayed and prayed in vain, then were condemned for not having faith. A very disturbing aspect of false Christian doctrine; blame the victim for bad theology.

(James 5:15) promises forgiveness and salvation, not healing. Why would someone sick need forgiveness unless they sinned? The context seems to refer to people who got sick due to sin -- these were the ones to call the elders. This is a superstitious notion even common today.

I pray for people's physical, mental, situational, psychological, even financial healing. Why not share with God the desires of your heart? We are not called to manufacture miracles.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Finally, though I am hesitant to bring this up, is it possible that there is a dearth of miracles in the Western Christian Churches (Europe and North America) because there is a dearth of Christians in those churches?
The Apostles had the gift of "unceasing prayer of the heart". This gift still exists in certain people, but it is because they have come to have the True Faith of the Apostles. The Problem is not cessationism. The problem is that faithlessness and perversity has grown to such an extent from the time of the Apostles that those of True Faith have been very few and far between. Thus, it is because of the "mystery of lawlessness" that has been at work throughout the Church age that there are fewer and fewer examples of wonder-working healers. Nothing has ceased. The Holy Spirit hasn't changed. We have changed.
Baloney sandwiches.
Ignorant suggestion.
Putting aside baloney and ignorant suggestions, we need to look to scripture for edification and truth. Miracles have two callings, one to increase faith, the other to testify to truth. The lack of miracles does not signify the lack of faith or the the lack of truth. To suggest so displays a lack of understanding of the purpose of them. Look at Elijah and Elisha; which had greater faith? Your simplistic association of the volume of miracles would imply that Elisha had the greater "True Faith" because he did twice as many miracles. But, it was Elijah that was taken up to heaven and it was Elijah that appeared with Moses at the transfiguration. Don't judge the faith of others based on what amounts to God's discretion in handing out gifts.

Calling 1.
Miracles are for increasing faith. Jesus said it many times, "your faith has healed you". Most look at this as reward and conditioned on first having faith. But it is not required beforehand, but the calling is that they will have faith after. So one without faith may have a miracle done to them and so they come to faith after. This is what many have already stated as a prevalence of miracles by missionaries in remote places.

Jesus spoke of this purpose even if it was not always successful.
Matthew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.​

But, Jesus also condemned his home town for their rejection of him and lack of faith. This resulted in a lack of miracles.

Matthew 13:54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”
58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.​

Calling 2.
Miracles testify to truth/authority.

John 5:36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.

John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,

Acts 4:33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all

Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.​

The opinion that there is a lack of miracles because, "those of True Faith have been very few and far between". I think scripture speaks the opposite. If miracles are for increasing faith and testifying truth, these are not needed for those that know the truth and faith is already increased. I think those lacking need miracles.

Further, there are other ways for faith to increase, like hearing and reading God's word. As to establishing truth, the Bible has been established for many years.

We don't need miracles any more. They are for the week and we are blessed to believe without them.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 
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Albion

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Q: If Cessationism is not true then where are all the healers?
A: If healing was today a common occurrence then Cessationism is not true. People report genuine miracles; are they legitimate? I don't know, maybe. If there are genuine miracles then Cessationism is not true.

I don't believe that's correctly stated. Cessationists certainly do believe miracles occur today. Probably the majority of these don't involve any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit identified in Corinthians. But even as concerns those that do extend from one of the gifts, we Cessationists are not denying them, either.

What cessation in this context means is that it is not correct to argue that the gifts which were prominent in the early church in a certain way and accomplished a certain objective, never ceased to play that role.

There were sporadic reports of people being so gifted thereafter, which we do not deny. And of course, some churches reintroduced the practice of some of them in more recent times, but that wouldn't mean that they had not ceased for all intents and purposes, at an earlier time, or at least that they were interrupted.
 
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jax5434

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Putting aside baloney and ignorant suggestions, we need to look to scripture for edification and truth. Miracles have two callings, one to increase faith, the other to testify to truth. The lack of miracles does not signify the lack of faith or the the lack of truth. To suggest so displays a lack of understanding of the purpose of them. Look at Elijah and Elisha; which had greater faith? Your simplistic association of the volume of miracles would imply that Elisha had the greater "True Faith" because he did twice as many miracles. But, it was Elijah that was taken up to heaven and it was Elijah that appeared with Moses at the transfiguration. Don't judge the faith of others based on what amounts to God's discretion in handing out gifts.

Calling 1.
Miracles are for increasing faith. Jesus said it many times, "your faith has healed you". Most look at this as reward and conditioned on first having faith. But it is not required beforehand, but the calling is that they will have faith after. So one without faith may have a miracle done to them and so they come to faith after. This is what many have already stated as a prevalence of miracles by missionaries in remote places.

Jesus spoke of this purpose even if it was not always successful.
Matthew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.​

But, Jesus also condemned his home town for their rejection of him and lack of faith. This resulted in a lack of miracles.

Matthew 13:54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”
58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.​

Calling 2.
Miracles testify to truth/authority.

John 5:36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.

John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,

Acts 4:33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all

Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.​

The opinion that there is a lack of miracles because, "those of True Faith have been very few and far between". I think scripture speaks the opposite. If miracles are for increasing faith and testifying truth, these are not needed for those that know the truth and faith is already increased. I think those lacking need miracles.

Further, there are other ways for faith to increase, like hearing and reading God's word. As to establishing truth, the Bible has been established for many years.

We don't need miracles any more. They are for the week and we are blessed to believe without them.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
You mistake my intent. I am not judging individual faith. I am just wondering if years of easy believism and drive by evangelism and worldly compromise have created a church in which there are few truly saved people to begin with. And even less disciples.
Luke 18:7-9
7Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help? 8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?” 9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable:…

God Bless
Jax
 
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jax5434

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If you step on the floor in your house, do you have faith in it?

In point of fact no. Presumably in your home you have stepped on the floor many times. Faith would be to step thru a strange door in pitch blackness trusting, with no visible or experiential evidence, that there is a floor there.
But I really do not understand what point you are trying to make here.
God Bless
Jax
 
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Putting aside baloney and ignorant suggestions, we need to look to scripture for edification and truth. Miracles have two callings, one to increase faith, the other to testify to truth. The lack of miracles does not signify the lack of faith or the the lack of truth. To suggest so displays a lack of understanding of the purpose of them. Look at Elijah and Elisha; which had greater faith? Your simplistic association of the volume of miracles would imply that Elisha had the greater "True Faith" because he did twice as many miracles. But, it was Elijah that was taken up to heaven and it was Elijah that appeared with Moses at the transfiguration. Don't judge the faith of others based on what amounts to God's discretion in handing out gifts.

Calling 1.
Miracles are for increasing faith. Jesus said it many times, "your faith has healed you". Most look at this as reward and conditioned on first having faith. But it is not required beforehand, but the calling is that they will have faith after. So one without faith may have a miracle done to them and so they come to faith after. This is what many have already stated as a prevalence of miracles by missionaries in remote places.

Jesus spoke of this purpose even if it was not always successful.
Matthew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.​

But, Jesus also condemned his home town for their rejection of him and lack of faith. This resulted in a lack of miracles.

Matthew 13:54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”
58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.​

Calling 2.
Miracles testify to truth/authority.

John 5:36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.

John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,

Acts 4:33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all

Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.​

The opinion that there is a lack of miracles because, "those of True Faith have been very few and far between". I think scripture speaks the opposite. If miracles are for increasing faith and testifying truth, these are not needed for those that know the truth and faith is already increased. I think those lacking need miracles.

Further, there are other ways for faith to increase, like hearing and reading God's word. As to establishing truth, the Bible has been established for many years.

We don't need miracles any more. They are for the week and we are blessed to believe without them.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Scripture? Okay then, AnticipateHisComing:

Mark 16:17-18

Fewer of these whom the Lord speaks of, means fewer are those of True Belief. We have Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition from within which our Scriptures are produced. I was drawing upon the knowledge that the Church inherits from these Holy sources. Thus, its not accurate to suggest that those opinions I've expressed here are my own when they are in fact what is taught in both Scripture and Tradition.

And just for your information, we are still beholding miracles. I'm going, God willing, to behold at least another one before the sun sets tomorrow.

Respectfully yours,

Me
 
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Anguspure

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Are you saying you agree or disagree with my post? you only wrote "not so"
Hardly decency and order in the name of profit going on in the quoted passage is there? By healing the "oracle" girl of her spiritual problem he cost her owners a whole lot of money.
 
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Anguspure

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In point of fact no. Presumably in your home you have stepped on the floor many times. Faith would be to step thru a strange door in pitch blackness trusting, with no visible or experiential evidence, that there is a floor there.
But I really do not understand what point you are trying to make here.
God Bless
Jax
I live aboard ships. There is a whole lot of faith every time we step aboard, we have faith in the naval architects that the thing is going to stay afloat upright, we have faith in the previous crew that they have maintained the vessel and identified all of the problems, and we have faith in a whole lot more that is ultimately beyond our control, at least until we have time to check it out for ourselves, and if anybody got it wrong we could all be dead within a few short hours.

But none of us would step aboard the vessel if there was not some evidence that the vessel was seaworthy.

So the evidence that we are presented enables us to have faith in the things that we do not see.

You are maintaining that faith is blind but it is clear that nobody can have faith in anything unless there is evidence in the first instance that thing being trusted is faithful.

We trust God because He is faithful, at first on the grounds of the evidence that He presents to us at the time and then hopefully as the relationship progresses, as we get to know Him better, our faith is able to grow.
 
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jax5434

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I live aboard ships. There is a whole lot of faith every time we step aboard, we have faith in the naval architects that the thing is going to stay afloat upright, we have faith in the previous crew that they have maintained the vessel and identified all of the problems, and we have faith in a whole lot more that is ultimately beyond our control, at least until we have time to check it out for ourselves, and if anybody got it wrong we could all be dead within a few short hours.

But none of us would step aboard the vessel if there was not some evidence that the vessel was seaworthy.

So the evidence that we are presented enables us to have faith in the things that we do not see.

You are maintaining that faith is blind but it is clear that nobody can have faith in anything unless there is evidence in the first instance that thing being trusted is faithful.

We trust God because He is faithful, at first on the grounds of the evidence that He presents to us at the time and then hopefully as the relationship progresses, as we get to know Him better, our faith is able to grow.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Faith is not blind. But it is focused on God. And while our history of walking with God may strengthen our faith it does not change the nature of it.
God Bless
Jax
 
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Anguspure

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Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Faith is not blind. But it is focused on God. And while our history of walking with God may strengthen our faith it does not change the nature of it.
God Bless
Jax
Yes and the evidence that God is faithful has been supplied to us in abundance. Nobody is expected to trust Him without evidence.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. (John 14)
 
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RaymondG

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Hardly decency and order in the name of profit going on in the quoted passage is there? By healing the "oracle" girl of her spiritual problem he cost her owners a whole lot of money.
He affected the riches of a man, not threaten the collapse of the economy of an entire nation. There are healers that work unseen and heal many out of the public eye. But if this were to become widespread and threaten the healthcare system, there would be undesirable consequences.

I believe if God wanted this widespread, He would allow for the collapse of the healthcare system first and then mainstream spiritual healing....making the reestablishment of the H-system optional.
 
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jax5434

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Yes and the evidence that God is faithful has been supplied to us in abundance. Nobody is expected to trust Him without evidence.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. (John 14)

I am not disagreeing with that. I am simply saying that having past evidence for your confidence in God does not change the nature of faith.
God Bless
Jax
 
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Anguspure

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I am not disagreeing with that. I am simply saying that having past evidence for your confidence in God does not change the nature of faith.
God Bless
Jax
I see what you are saying, that at what ever point you are at, a step of faith is always a new move into the unknown.
The past evidence allows my faith to be larger and stronger. I can confidently walk aboard the ship, load it with a couple of thousand tonnes of cargo and sail without the slightest fear (perhaps this level of faith aboard a ship is ill founded).
Whereas if I did not have a faith this great I would first need to go over the same vessel with a fine tooth comb, assessing the evidence before I was even happy to stay aboard.
The same for God. As our faith grows we can confidently trust Him with ever bigger things and so we can confidently make bigger steps.
 
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Waggles

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Where are all the healers healing the sick and wounded in hospitals today?
Shouldn't this be a common occurrence?
Not talking about prophesying, but healing
Why don't you come over to a good proper Pentecostal Church
like The Revival Fellowship
and you will have plenty of testimonies to healings and miracles.
You might even receive a miraculous healing yourself with the right
attitude and humility.

http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIM...- healed when Spirit filled (Christine L).pdf
 
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Why don't you come over to a good proper Pentecostal Church
like The Revival Fellowship
and you will have plenty of testimonies to healings and miracles.
You might even receive a miraculous healing yourself with the right
attitude and humility.

http://miracles.areonthe.net/TESTIM...- healed when Spirit filled (Christine L).pdf

I appreciate the testimony, but I am not disagreeing that the Spirit still works miraculous healings in His faithful today. The issue is whether or not the Spirit continues to bestow divine powers of healing unto ministers to lay hands on others in order to heal them today, in a way reminiscent of what is depicted in the book of Acts.

When you received the Holy Spirit, was it during a church service? Did a minister lay hands on you?
 
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Waggles

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The villagers consented. The village shaman, who we instantly knew to be demon possessed felt the Spirit and fled. We put our hands on his foot and prayed. It grew back. We saw it.
The entire village confessed and converted.
this is happening in a big big way in Papua New Guinea where witch doctors and their
incantations and voodoo practices are being done away with by the power of the Holy
Spirit and the gospel > these signs shall follow them that believe.

After a significant healing or two then the entire village will believe and be converted.
They will listen to the gospel and they will be told the "cost" of discipleship.
No more killings. No more revenge attacks against the next village.
No more chewing beetlenut [a narcotic] and no more home-made alcohol.
'clean on the inside, clean on the outside'
Repentance must be genuine.

Then come the water baptisms by full immersion (often hundreds on the same day)
and then those doing the baptisms will lay hands on these new converts and pray
with them to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and for the sign of speaking in new
tongues to confirm this - as in Acts...

And then comes the miracles and healings - the lame are healed, the blind see, the
deaf hear, people are instantly healed of tuberculosis, polio, cancer, aids and hiv,
malaria, etc etc etc.
 
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Anguspure

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this is happening in a big big way in Papua New Guinea where witch doctors and their
incantations and voodoo practices are being done away with by the power of the Holy
Spirit and the gospel > these signs shall follow them that believe.

After a significant healing or two then the entire village will believe and be converted.
They will listen to the gospel and they will be told the "cost" of discipleship.
No more killings. No more revenge attacks against the next village.
No more chewing beetlenut [a narcotic] and no more home-made alcohol.
'clean on the inside, clean on the outside'
Repentance must be genuine.

Then come the water baptisms by full immersion (often hundreds on the same day)
and then those doing the baptisms will lay hands on these new converts and pray
with them to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and for the sign of speaking in new
tongues to confirm this - as in Acts...

And then comes the miracles and healings - the lame are healed, the blind see, the
deaf hear, people are instantly healed of tuberculosis, polio, cancer, aids and hiv,
malaria, etc etc etc.
A case of being in the right place where God is working rather than hanging around in sleepy hollow hoping He'll pay a visit sometime.
 
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Waggles

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The issue is whether or not the Spirit continues to bestow divine powers of healing unto ministers to lay hands on others in order to heal them today, in a way reminiscent of what is depicted in the book of Acts.
Yes this still happens, just like in the book of Acts.
Last Sunday after listening to one of the gifts of prophecy spoken out for the benefit
of us all; I took to heart the direction given by God that we should covet earnestly
spiritual qualities and victories in the power of the Holy Spirit.
That we needed to be bold and to step out in faith remembering that the power that
created the universe was dwelling within us.
It was a polite telling off on how we had become slothful in our walk and faith.

So I went out to the prayer line (pastors, elders and house leaders) and when it was my
turn for prayer, I asked the Lord to uphold my testimony to the gospel and to uphold
my faith to be an ambassador to him by healing me of my degenerative and very
crippling arthritis (in my lower spine, hips, knees and feet).
I said I cannot preach about the Holy Spirit and power and of healing miracles if I am
crippled by osteo-arthritis. I covet the victory in Christ Jesus so that I can be an
ambassador by example and by my testimony.

In the prayer line one is facing a man who after listening to my petitions then
places his hand(s) usually on the shoulder(s) and then prays on one's behalf.
Often, but not always, both with the understanding and in the Spirit. I prayed
along at the same time in tongues.

When I walked back to my seat from the prayer line I knew I had been healed and
had obtained the victory.
My body is still subject to the wear and tear of my osteo-arthritis but I have NO pain
nor do I walk as a cripple any longer.
Thank you Lord Jesus for every blessing and every answered prayer.
 
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Marital Status
Widowed
That is what the gift of healing, granted to the apostles by the Spirit, as spoken of in the book of Acts actually was though. They could preform such miraculous healing's spontaneously to anyone they happened upon. The real question is whether or not that has ceased today.
So did Smith Wigglesworth - to such an extent that he was called
Smith Wigglesworth an apostle of God.

Wigglesworth was one of the original latter-rain fathers of the Pentecostal revivals of the
1890s to the 1940s.
It is documented that Wigglesworth raised 8 people from the dead through praying in
the Holy Spirit [tongues] and laying hands on the deceased.
 
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