Question about Gift of Prophecy

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Michael Collum said:

You may find Wayne Grudem's book on the subject helpful.
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In general, the old testament prophet age ended at the time John the Baptist was beheaded. The job of a prophet during the age of the law and the prophets was to turn people away from sin and communicate messages directly from God. The basis of prophecy was the law.
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In the new testament age, prophets take on a different role as all gifts are meant for edification of the body of Christ as a whole. The basis of new testament prophecy is the testimony of Jesus.
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The main difference between an OT prophet and a NT prophet is that in the NT, you are instructed to not despise prophesyings, but to test everything and keep what is good and discard what is not. In the OT, the prophet would say THUS SAITH THE LORD, and there was no debate over whether the Lord said it or not, very take it or leave it type thing. In the NT, we weigh what is said based on what God has communicated to us as "good" ... in most contexts, this means the scriptures. However there may be some people who base their agreement or disagreement on how God has treated them over the years. And also in the ancient traditions, the writings of the church fathers may weigh in also.
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So, I believe prophecy has a place in the New Testament age for born again believers, but the old testament example of listen to me or else, is outdated as greatness in the Kingdom of God is not based on lording it over people, but it is based on the service provided.

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Even when Jesus was born Anna also prophecy in the church that Jesus is the awaited Messiah.

Francis Drake said:

Are you serious?
The use of prophetic gifts were banned, often on pain of death, by many churches until quite recently!

It is an oxymoron to claim that these splits were created by false prophets, when their very leaders condemned the gift of prophecy!

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I am serious. The denominations were created by people who broke away from others. They broke away because they wanted things to be done their way. They were obsessed. The spoke from obsession. Did you know that "spirit" means breath. Their every breath was inspired by their obsessions. Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Senkaku said:

@GingerBeer John was not labeled a prophet in scripture, so are you saying that you can be a prophet without being labeled that? if so, what are the qualifications ...

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Now hear what I have to say! When there are prophets among you, I reveal myself to them in visions and speak to them in dreams. (Numbers 12:6) Prophets or interpreters of dreams may promise a miracle or a wonder, in order to lead you to worship and serve gods that you have not worshipped before. Even if what they promise comes true, do not pay any attention to them. (Deuteronomy 13:1-3) But if any prophet dares to speak a message in my name when I did not command him to do so, he must die for it, and so must any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods. You may wonder how you can tell when a prophet's message does not come from the LORD. If a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and what he says does not come true, then it is not the LORD's message. That prophet has spoken on his own authority, and you are not to fear him. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)

The qualification that you asked to see are in the passage that I've quoted above. Those qualifications applied in ancient times to the people of Israel and in later times (still ancient from today's perspective) to the prophets and apostles of the new testament. None of the people claiming to be prophets and seers and apostles and who knows what else today can pass as qualified. They are all false prophets according to the scriptures.

Senkaku said:

@GingerBeer thats great and all, but you do realize that that passage is speaking about FALSE prophets, right? which implies that there are true ones. if prophecy is only to be written down, then why do we have instructions on prophecy if we aren't charged to write these things down?

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I think everyone agrees that true prophets existed in the time of the apostles.

PrettyboyAndy said:

I am a cessastionalist myself, but the NT was cannonized around 180 AD?

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The writing of the NT was complete by 100 AD, actually.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Why would there but multiple chapters about something that was only in place for less than 100 years?

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Because it was important at the time?

PrettyboyAndy said:

What is the Gift of Prophecy, and has it ceased?

Is it to be used in churches today?

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Revelation 19:10 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
10 I bowed at his feet to worship him. But he told me, “Don’t do that! I am your coworker and a coworker of the Christians who hold on to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, because the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy!” Does He answer your question. May His Blessing be on you (seek and you shall find).

PrettyboyAndy said:

If we take the position that Gift of Prophesy is for now, than if someone were to hear a Word from the Lord, one could say, we should cannonize it/add it to the cannon, because its God breathed. - Which by no means can be the case.

Another problem is how does one know if the "Word" comes from God or just imagination or thought?

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"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

You are right that the Bible (scripture) has been completed. However, prophesying in the above instance occurs as the Spirit is poured out upon all flesh, meaning upon all who are the spouse of Christ I think, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh so to speak. Prophesying simply means sharing the word of God, the gospel, testifying of Jesus Christ. When scripture says 'your sons and your daughters shall prophesy', I think that is talking about those who are born again sharing the gospel. Isn't that something that the true believers of the church age are told to do? "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." And again, "And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." And "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised".

Concerning whether things come from the imagination and men's thoughts or instead from God's thoughts, that is a good point and something that each person must weigh, asking if hopefully God will grant them to know and to discern what is the good from the bad. Remember how Matthew 24 tells us that many will come claiming to be in Christ but the true believers are not to go after them. Still, the gospel, as Jesus Christ, is the same yesterday, today, and forever. People who are born again will share the good news of Jesus as the spirit moves them.

PrettyboyAndy said:

What is the Gift of Prophecy, and has it ceased?

Is it to be used in churches today?

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An OT prophet was chosen by God to speak his word. In the simplest measure prophecy is just speaking God's word and we all can do this as Joel prophesied, Joel 2:28. This has a huge benefit in the Church today, although not in sermons because priests strongly discourage anyone interrupting them.

The strongest place where I have felt this going on is in a men's Bible class. Scripture is read, one comments on it, and another adds to it and another. The Scripture is true on it's own, but how we understand it, apply it and relate to it is where the Holy Spirit comes and does a much better job than a priest reading his lecture.

This prophecy is the edification of the Church by speaking godly words with inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

Now the OT prophets spoke with authority. Many times they said, "Thus says the Lord...". The OT prophets had signs to establish their authority. Even Jesus acknowledged this and did so to prove his words true. Once authority in a prophet has been established, than all his words are to be taken as true. This is necessary in the establishment of scripture because all scripture must be true without doubt.

Today as the canon of scripture has been closed for hundreds of years, there is no longer a need for one to speak with unquestionable authority and truth. All that is needed to be revealed to us from God has been done. For this reason there are no longer numerous signs of healing or future predictions done by one person. There certainly may be miraculous healings as part of God's grace to us, but not for testimony of truth.

As to the Church's need for people to predict the future, this is not needed as the Revelation of John completes the timeline to the last day.

PrettyboyAndy said:

If you take the position that gifts will cease, when the perfect comes, and the perfect is completion of the NT, than that only leaves not much time for that to be practiced

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"The perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 does not refer to the completion of the NT. I'm not aware of any serious theologian who thinks that. Even a strict Cessationist like John MacArthur agrees (in his commentary on 1 Corinthians) that "the perfect" refers to "the eternal, heavenly state of believers."

Cessationists generally feel that the gift of prophecy ceased when it was no longer needed. That may have been much later than the completion of the NT Canon.

PrettyboyAndy said:

So when was 1st Corinthians written?

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Somewhere around 55 AD, give or take a few years.

PrettyboyAndy said:

Joel 2:28, says in the Last Days,

But the NT also says many times, Christ will return soon, it's possible that was time of pentacost was considered the end times.

Plus Paul quotes this verse at Pentecost, which could have been the fulfillment of that verse

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Oh, Pentecost was certainly the/a fulfilment of the Joel verse. But from the point of view of O.T. prophets, the "Last Days" covers the whole period from Christ's ministry to the end times.

GingerBeer said:

I am serious. The denominations were created by people who broke away from others.

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Of course they did, they broke away because they were falsely taught.

They broke away because they wanted things to be done their way.

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Of course they did.

They were obsessed.

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Of course they were.

The spoke from obsession.

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Of course they did.

Did you know that "spirit" means breath.

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Of course I know that. It can mean my breath, your breath, God's breath, or the breath of demons.
"Pneuma" = breath, wind, spirit, and from where we get pneumatic cylinders for mechanical power etc.

Their every breath was inspired by their obsessions. Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

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I agree with all you have said, but you cannot run and hide from the historic fact that the denominations broke away by false teaching, frequently led by those who taught that the gifts of the spirit had long ceased.

Francis Drake said:

I agree with all you have said, but you cannot run and hide from the historic fact that the denominations broke away by false teaching, frequently led by those who taught that the gifts of the spirit had long ceased.

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Well, either you believe that the Reformation was going back to Biblical truth (and you should be a Protestant) or you believe that the original churches are still right (and you should be Catholic or orthodox) or you have made up your own version of Christianity that does not fit with any standard denomination.

Show me someone who says "all the denominations have false teaching," and I'll show you a heretic that does not believe in traditional Christianity, as expressed in the Creeds.

Francis Drake said:

I agree with all you have said

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False teaching is false prophecy.

Radagast said:

Well, either you believe that the Reformation was going back to Biblical truth (and you should be a Protestant) or you believe that the original churches are still right (and you should be Catholic or orthodox) or you have made up your own version of Christianity that does not fit with any standard denomination.

Show me someone who says "all the denominations have false teaching," and I'll show you a heretic that does not believe in traditional Christianity, as expressed in the Creeds.

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Haha, you have completely missed the point, this goes way beyond the mere Protestant or Catholic split.
My post was a rhetorical challenge to what GingerBeer said about the gift of prophecy today.

It is not a binary decision. ie. Black or white?
Its neither black nor white because there are countless colours and countless shades of grey.
But the cessationists condemn prophecy today and demand that such a person should be stoned if his words are not 100% perfect.
My point is that teaching is also imperfect, and that teachers, not prophets, are the ones who have led these church splits.
I was not passing any judgement about whether these teachers were right or wrong, just pointing out that if these teachers were truly led by God, they would all be making the same point instead of fighting each other.

PrettyboyAndy said:

If we take the position that Gift of Prophesy is for now, than if someone were to hear a Word from the Lord, one could say, we should cannonize it/add it to the cannon, because its God breathed. - Which by no means can be the case.

Another problem is how does one know if the "Word" comes from God or just imagination or thought?

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Andy,

When we speak of the canon of Scripture, it is spelled 'canon' and not 'cannon'. A cannon is a large, heavy piece of artillery that was used in the past in warfare.

In this post, your presuppositions confuse your definition of NT prophecy. You presuppose that the gift of prophecy that continues today [but you don't believe that] is God-breathed and should be added to the canon.

If you examine 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV), you'll see how Paul does not teach that the NT gift of prophecy is the same as OT prophecy: 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation [prophecy], a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up'.

That is what happens when the church gathers as a body, which is a long way removed from what happens in most churches that I've experienced today.

This is what should happen when the gift of prophecy happens today:

Note what Paul did NOT say: NT prophecy is the same as OT prophecy and comes with a 'thus says the Lord'. OT prophecy was often predictive. NT prophecy is not so, but it is to strengthen, encourage, comfort and edify believers in the church.

Your cessationist views seem to prevent you from seeing the nature of NT prophecy.

Are there problems with some NT prophecy in some contemporary churches? Yes, there are. But Paul tells us how to deal with that:


This is where a lot of problems are happening in my view in Pentecostal-charismatic churches. After a prophecy 'the others' do not 'weigh carefully' what is stated for its agreement with Scripture and logical consistency.

Oz

OzSpen said:

If you examine 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV), you'll see how Paul does not teach that the NT gift of prophecy is the same as OT prophecy: 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation [prophecy], a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up'.

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This is the Wayne Grudem perspective. But Peter's quote of Joel teaches us that New Testament prophecy was indeed like Old Testament prophecy, and this is reinforced by actual descriptions of prophecy, such as Acts of the Apostles 11:28 and Acts of the Apostles 21:10-11. And Wayne Grudem concedes that that kind of prophecy has ceased.

OzSpen said:

Your cessationist views seem to prevent you from seeing the nature of NT prophecy.

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Are you sure that your Continuationist ideas don't prevent you from seeing the nature of NT prophecy?