What is the same between an abolished law and a fulfilled law?

Jason0047 said:

Yes. God is Omnipotent. He is control over what those who are evil and those who sin.

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There you go. That's all you had to say.

If God didn't create ALL things, despite scripture repeatedly telling us otherwise (Col 1:16-17, Romans 11:36, 1 Cor 8:6, etc.) please show us your scriptural support for the origin of the devil. Thanks.

Phil 1:21 said:

There you go. That's all you had to say.

If God didn't create ALL things, despite scripture repeatedly telling us otherwise (Col 1:16-17, Romans 11:36, 1 Cor 8:6, etc.) please show us your scriptural support for the origin of the devil. Thanks.

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The origin of the devil and his future fate can be read in Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Isaiah 14:12-19.

As for the verses you posted:
I will address them later.

Jason0047 said:

The origin of the devil and his future fate can be read in Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Isaiah 14:12-19.

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So the origin would be....?

Phil 1:21 said:

So the origin would be....?

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I am showing you the same courtesy you showed me. You just gave me verse numbers. So I am doing the same for you. Feel free to read those passages and get back to me with an opinion.

Jason0047 said:

I am showing you the same courtesy you showed me. You just gave me verse numbers. So I am doing the same for you. Feel free to read those passages and get back to me with an opinion.

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But I actually told you what they mean. Should I continue to wait for your scriptural support for who created the devil?

DamianWarS said:

The OC law was made pointing at the one who could complete it awaiting for his arrival. This is not the same as the Law of Christ as it suggest many can fulfill the law of Christ but only 1 could fulfill the OC law.

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You may be able to help. I puzzled over whether Israel's fault was for not obeying the OC. Christ had to do what Israel refused. Is it possible that that was her fault?

Matthew 21:33-41
33“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 34“When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35“The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36“Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37“But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’38“But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39“They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40“Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” 41They said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”

DamianWarS said:

The OC law was made pointing at the one who could complete it awaiting for his arrival. This is not the same as the Law of Christ as it suggest many can fulfill the law of Christ but only 1 could fulfill the OC law.

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There is nothing in the Bible that speaks about the Old Covenant being completed, but rather the Bible speaks about it being broken and the need for God to make a new one. Though I would agree that the Old Covenant points towards Christ because it teaches how to have a relationship with Him. You are not consistently interpreting the word "fulfill", but rather you are bending it to fit your theology while disregarding the context of how Jews have historically used the term. Furthermore, Galatians 5:14, it says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so everyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, not just Jesus.

Phil 1:21 said:

But I actually told you what they mean. Should I continue to wait for your scriptural support for who created the devil?

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You asked for the origin of the devil. Those verses explain it.

You made a statement followed by a few verses. You said, ...God...create ALL things, scripture repeatedly telling us...(Colossians 1:16-17, Romans 11:36, 1 Corinthians 8:6, etc.).

Yet, you did not give a detailed explanation. Just a simple few word statement and then some verses. No major commentary. Just verses. That is what I gave you in return.

Jason0047 said:

You asked for the origin of the devil. Those verses explain it.

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I asked a straight forward question, and you’ve done everything but answer it. God tells us He created all thing, and yes, that includes the devil.

Phil 1:21 said:

There you go. That's all you had to say.

If God didn't create ALL things, despite scripture repeatedly telling us otherwise (Col 1:16-17, Romans 11:36, 1 Cor 8:6, etc.) please show us your scriptural support for the origin of the devil. Thanks.

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Yes, God directly created all physical things within this universe. However, God did not directly create the devil, or evil, or sin. 1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness in God. Scripture says God is holy (1 Peter 1:16). You cannot have a holy God who creates sin and evil directly. That would not make any sense. Even unbelievers know better than that. God created free willed beings who would be responsible for their own choices or decisions. So if those free willed beings chose to do evil or sin, it was their choice to do so. Also, evil is not some kind of entity or something. Evil is merely the absence of good or what is holy or righteous or godly. Sort of like how darkness is the absence of light. For waves of darkness do not come into a person's room.

Colossians 1:16-17 says,

16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

First, it needs to be understood that ALL does not always mean all in the Bible. Unless you think all of Judae and all the region around Jordan were all baptized of John the baptist in the Jordan river with them confessing their sins.

5 "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." (Matthew 3:5-6).

Second, God created all physical and spiritual things in the universe, but God did not did create the devil as an evil being to begin with and God did not create Adam already fallen, etc. God gave his creation a choice to either choose good or to choose the absence of good. God gave his creation free will because you cannot have true love without free will choice.

In fact, nowhere does Colossians 1:16-17 say that God directly created the devil out of nothing or evil out of nothing and or sin out of nothing. You have to falsely assume that such is the case when in reality it was free willed beings who made their choice to do sin or evil (When they also equally had the choice to choose that which was good).

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

As for Romans 11:36:

Well, the NLT says,
"For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen." (Romans 11:36) (New Living Translation).

The KJV uses the word "all" instead of "everything."; And we know that the word "all" does not always mean "all" in the Bible. God might have created the angelic being that would later turn out to be the devil, but God did not set out to make him specifically that way. This being also had the capacity to do good and not evil, as well. If such was not the case, then 1 John 1:5 would be a contradiction and or a lie. But we know it is impossible for God to lie. But what about how things that God allows to exist? Does God want evil in His universe? Well, there is a big difference in creating evil vs. temporarily allowing evil so as to have true love to exist.

True love is when two parties both agree to love each other of their own free will.
For example: Two married couples generally both agree to love each other if they have any hope and or reality to make that marriage work as God intended it. For if you have ever felt in love, you realize that in order for it to be true, the other person has to feel that way, as well. You cannot force your love upon another person and call that love. It doesn't work that way.

Anways, nowhere does Romans 11:36 say that God directly created the devil, evil, and or sin.

As for 1 Corinthians 8:6:

This says,
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Again, "all" does not always mean "all" in the Bible and nowhere does this verse specifically say that God directly created the devil, evil, or sin out of nothing.

Phil 1:21 said:

I asked a straight forward question, and you’ve done everything but answer it. God tells us He created all thing, and yes, that includes the devil.

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Ezekiel 28:12-19
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

Isaiah 14:12-19
12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet."

Soyeong said:

2 Peter 3:11-13 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

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You say this has not happened yet and quote many verses; too many to address in one post. I will address the first, 2 Peter 3, for now and aim to show you how it has happened.

The context is found in 2 Peter 3:1:


The purpose then is to remind them of some things already prophesied in the Old Testament and remind them of the words of Jesus (e.g. Matthew 24). Then he explains the content of the prophecies:


So Peter is talking about the "coming of Jesus". Now the "coming of Jesus" alludes to verses like Matthew 24:30 where He will "come in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory". Throughout the Old Testament when God was to bring judgment upon a nation it was said that He would "come in the clouds of the sky" (e.g. Isaiah 19:1; Psalm 18; Psalm 104; Joel 2:2; Zephaniah 1:14-15 etc.). Both Matthew 24 and 2 Peter 3 are discussing the same event, that is, the end of the age marked by the destruction of the temple.

To gain a greater insight into the evidence behind why I believe in this way I refer you to Raptureless by Dr Jonathan Welton. "Heaven and earth" is a reference to the temple and "Heaven and earth" has already passed away.

DamianWarS said:

Jesus fulfilled the law, it points to him because it was written for him and only he can fulfill it. you can apply a contextual interpretation for abolishing vs fulfilling using the words in the passage but ultimately there are undeniable aspects of the law that can only be fulfilled by Christ such as the sacrificial law where Christ took on all sin and the sabbatical law where Christ lay in the grave. Christ fulfills the law in such ways that we cannot merely repeat, for starters we would have to go through physical death.

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To fulfill the Law is defined as "cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be". After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, he then immediately proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of Matthew 5 by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. There are many examples in other Jewish writings of people fulfilling the law in this manner. Again, according to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, so it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did or to doing away with any laws, no more than fulfilling the Law of Christ or fulfilling the Gospel does away with them. So it is completely false that only Jesus can fulfill the Law. There is no concept found anywhere in the Bible that perfectly obeying God's Law does away with it or parts of it, but rather it would set an perfect example for us to follow, and as Christ's followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

The topic of the sacrificial laws or the Sabbath being done away with isn't even remotely connected to what Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 5, so there is no way to make Matthew 5 support that position without ripping it out of context and showing complete disregard for how the word is used elsewhere. There is nothing in the Bible that says that God's holiness or the Sabbath has been done away with. In Acts 18:18, Paul took a vow that involves making offerings (Numbers 6), and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for the offerings of others in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against obeying God and to show that he continued to love in obedience to Him. In Hebrews 8:4, it refers to priests making ongoing offerings in accordance with the Law, so offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Messiah, but only stopped because of the destruction of the temple, but are prophecies to resume when the third temple is built (Daniel 9:27, Ezekiel 40-44).

YouAreAwesome said:

You say this has not happened yet and quote many verses; too many to address in one post. I will address the first, 2 Peter 3, for now and aim to show you how it has happened.

The context is found in 2 Peter 3:1:

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles (2 Peter 3:1–2).​

The purpose then is to remind them of some things already prophesied in the Old Testament and remind them of the words of Jesus (e.g. Matthew 24). Then he explains the content of the prophecies:

Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation”​

So Peter is talking about the "coming of Jesus". Now the "coming of Jesus" alludes to verses like Matthew 24:30 where He will "come in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory". Throughout the Old Testament when God was to bring judgment upon a nation it was said that He would "come in the clouds of the sky" (e.g. Isaiah 19:1; Psalm 18; Psalm 104; Joel 2:2; Zephaniah 1:14-15 etc.). Both Matthew 24 and 2 Peter 3 are discussing the same event, that is, the end of the age marked by the destruction of the temple.

To gain a greater insight into the evidence behind why I believe in this way I refer you to Raptureless by Dr Jonathan Welton. "Heaven and earth" is a reference to the temple and "Heaven and earth" has already passed away.

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In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked Jesus two questions because they associated the destruction of the temple with the end of the age, but Jesus gave two different answers, one in regard to the destruction of the temple, and one in regard to the end of the age, so they are not the same event, Jesus did not return in 70 AD, the events described in the verses I listed have not happened yet, and heaven and earth are still here. When God makes a new heaven and earth, it will be restored to how it was like in the Garden.

Soyeong said:

In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked Jesus two questions because they associated the destruction of the temple with the end of the age, but Jesus gave two different answers, one in regard to the destruction of the temple, and one in regard to the end of the age, so they are not the same event, Jesus did not return in 70 AD, the events described in the verses I listed have not happened yet, and heaven and earth are still here. When God makes a new heaven and earth, it will be restored to how it was like in the Garden.

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What leads you to think He gave an answer about the end of the kosmos when He was asked about the end of the age (aionos)?

DamianWarS said:

The Israelites are guilty of not keeping the law and turing it into something it's not Hebrews tells us however they were never able to truly fulfill the law Heb 10:4 "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

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If they were never able to fulfill the law, why are they faulted? Why was the kingdom taken away from them and given to another?