(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

klutedavid said:

The law is Exodus and Deuteronomy, all of it, that is the law that Israel was under.

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"Under"? Do some study.

In the mean time here are some of the people that don't exist anymore, according to some;

What a refreshing song!

Devin P said:

And again, Jesus makes all that believe in Him children of Israel.

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Absolutely not. Gentile believers are part of the commonwealth of Israel, but not Israel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Gentile. You don't have to be part of Israel to be loved by God!

klutedavid said:

Hello Bob.

You said earlier that Gentiles were not circumcised in the Old or New Testament.

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Hello David -

I actually said this --

BobRyan said:

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

Gentiles were told to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 but never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God.

All mankind to come before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" and bow down in worship Isaiah 66:23 -- but never do we see "all mankind circumcised" in OT or NT.

Hence Paul's statement here

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

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Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

Gentiles were told to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 but never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God.

As we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5

All mankind to come before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" and bow down in worship Isaiah 66:23 -- but never do we see "all mankind circumcised" in OT or NT.

Hence Paul's statement here

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

klutedavid said:

I showed you that Gentiles were circumcised to celebrate the Passover.

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Indeed -- a "bait and switch" on your part having nothing at all to refute the much more general statement

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

As we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5

klutedavid said:

Why can't you admit to your error?

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Because your equivocation between the special case of 'Passover participation' with my more explicit statement about "never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God. " is much more transparently disconnected from "in order to celebrate Passover" then you may have at first imagined to yourself.

As I keep pointing out - over and over.

klutedavid said:

Hello Bob.

Your partial quotation of Isaiah 56, fails.

Isaiah 56, states that the Gentiles will be sacrificing.

6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Your interpretation is a train wreck.

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Until you notice the details in the actual text. And the fact that even Cain and Able were offering sacrifices -- as this was the OT form of liturgy for all mankind.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

You must explain how you sacrifice while not profaning the Sabbath?

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Nonesense... your argument that the liturgy of the OT "violates the Sabbath according to the OT" is your own "argument against the text" ... why do I have to explain the obvious???

You keep quoting this --

6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

As if it helps your case... why keep doing that??


we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 Sabbath after Sabbath.

W2L said:

Hebrews 4 refutes your flawed understanding of Isaiah and sabbath
.

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we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 -- your argument is "with the text".

as for Isaiah 56

6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

And in Hebrews 8 the NEW Covenant is with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah".

The point remains -- and Hebrews 4 does nothing to refute that -- rather it points out "the Gospel was preached to us JUST as it was to THEM also" with the Hebrews 11 hall of FAITH held up before the NT saints - being exclusively the OT saints!

listed said:

You really seem to be on both sides of the fence. The covenant made with Israel ended at the cross.

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The covenant did not end for the covenant was not a part of Mosaic law, it was in the 10 commandments.

Jesus came to fulfill THE LAW.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

IF you would study history and Scripture, you would see this is true.

But it is easier to believe the indoctrination of a deceived world, than to search out truth for ones self.

listed said:

I wonder about this statement. The title you use has always been associated with the human posterior.

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? ? ? ? ?
are you confusing glutious maximus with;


PONTIFEX(latin)
(bridgebuilder between the Gods and humans)

MAXIMUS
(greatest)


It is a 2300 year old UNBROKEN Pagan Sun Worshiping TITLE of SUPREME RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY now held by the POPE in Rome.

It is THE ONLY COMMON LINK connecting the actions of Daniel's "Little Horn" through out documented human history!

listed said:

This makes me think indeed you're using Pontifex Maximus in the derogatory manner referring to the human buttocks.

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Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Don't be one of them my brother!

IDENTIFYING Daniel's 4th Beast ("Little Horn") A.K.A. -Revelation 17's Harlot Babylon

Dig4truth said:

I’ve heard you make the claim that physical Israel is not God’s chosen people any longer. What I haven’t heard is the Scripture supporting this position.

Do you have any that specifically state this position?

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I have quoted Scripture that states that FLESH cannot inherit the kingdom.

If fleshly Israel cannot inherit the kingdom, that would leave what, . . . . . . .?

Spiritual Israel?

It is only common sense.

James 1:27Living Bible (TLB)
The Christian who is pure and without fault, from God the Father’s point of view, is the one who takes care of orphans and widows, and who remains true to the Lord—not soiled and dirtied by his contacts with the world.

On a side note, I love what Ecclesiastes says about the human condition.

Devin P said:

Definition of commonwealth -

Commonwealth:
commonwealth
1. a nation, state, or other political unit: such as:

a. one founded on law and united by compact or tacit agreement of the people for the common good.

b. one in which supreme authority is vested in the people

Yeah, we are part of the commonwealth, you're right. Because commonwealth means nation. Gentiles are not in covenant with God, believing, we are. You can't be an out of covenant believer, it's an oxymoron. Just as strangers (gentiles) became the same as natural born Israel back all throughout Torah and in the Tanakh (before Judah does what it still does today and started exaulting themselves over everyone) as a believer who desires Him and His law, just as before, we are grafted in to Israel in the same fashion.

Egyptians followed them out of Egypt, yet God nor Moses referred to them "Israel and the gentiles" or "Israel and you Egyptians who also came out" no. Because their faith made them as natural born Israel. It wasn't God that made it as you're saying, it was Judah. Man. Not God.

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I think you're completely mixed up.

BobRyan said:

Hello David -

I actually said this --



Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

Gentiles were told to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 but never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God.

As we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5

All mankind to come before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" and bow down in worship Isaiah 66:23 -- but never do we see "all mankind circumcised" in OT or NT.

Hence Paul's statement here

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19



Indeed -- a "bait and switch" on your part having nothing at all to refute the much more general statement

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

As we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5



Because your equivocation between the special case of 'Passover participation' with my more explicit statement about "never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God. " is much more transparently disconnected from "in order to celebrate Passover" then you may have at first imagined to yourself.

As I keep pointing out - over and over.

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Gentiles had to be circumcised to participate in the covenant made with Israel at Sinai. If they weren't they could not participate in the rites of the covenant. Thus they weren't obligated to any of it except when sojourning in Israel.

BobRyan said:

Until you notice the details in the actual text. And the fact that even Cain and Able were offering sacrifices -- as this was the OT form of liturgy for all mankind.

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Neither had any thing to do with the law. So you've got no point.

BobRyan said:

we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 -- your argument is "with the text".

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HOw does that turn into a command for Christians?

Lee Stuvmen said:

The covenant did not end for the covenant was not a part of Mosaic law, it was in the 10 commandments.

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Did Jeremiah lie? Is Paul protecting Jeremiah and his false prophecy with: Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second?

What covenant (testament) is Jesus talking about with: This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you? The word kainos is used which means new as in not previously.

Jesus came to fulfill THE LAW.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

IF you would study history and Scripture, you would see this is true.

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I believe the verse you posted. This is a direct reference to the words found in Matthew 5. This fact is being denied. This denial makes Jesus a liar. The last 2 definitive words of the quoted verse are being ignored.

But it is easier to believe the indoctrination of a deceived world, than to search out truth for ones self.

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Are you talking about me or yourself? The verse you posted clearly doesn't agree with you.

? ? ? ? ?
are you confusing glutious maximus with;


PONTIFEX(latin)
(bridgebuilder between the Gods and humans)

MAXIMUS
(greatest)

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No. I'm very familiar with slang usage. Slang isn't technical in usage. You've got no valid point.

It is a 2300 year old UNBROKEN Pagan Sun Worshiping TITLE of SUPREME RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY now held by the POPE in Rome.

It is THE ONLY COMMON LINK connecting the actions of Daniel's "Little Horn" through out documented human history!

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Don't understand . Sorry.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Don't be one of them my brother!

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I return this verse to you.

bugkiller said:

I read the Gospels and Acts.

bugkiller

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So did I. It poses a serious problem for the law contingency.

Dig4truth said:

Which law are you refering to?
I'm certainly not under the law of sin and death.

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If you're under the law issued to Sinai you're under the law of sin and death.

Lee Stuvmen said:

I have quoted Scripture that states that FLESH cannot inherit the kingdom.

If fleshly Israel cannot inherit the kingdom, that would leave what, . . . . . . .?

Spiritual Israel?

It is only common sense.

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Actually, that refers to the glorified bodies we will receive at the resurrection and not to a non-scriptural entity called "spiritual Israel".

I Cor 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Devin P said:

Commonwealth:
commonwealth
1. a nation, state, or other political unit: such as:

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Yes, commonwealth means those who are within a country. For example, legal residents from other countries are part of the commonwealth of any country.

There were Gentiles that sojourned inside the Land of Israel. They were considered part of the commonwealth. But they were NOT part of Israel, unless they converted (became Jews) and took upon themselves the 613 laws of the Mosaic covenant. IOW there was a way to be adopted into the Tribal People. If a sojourner was NOT so adopted into Israel, they were still part of the commonwealth, just for living in the Land because of their proximity to Israel.

On a spiritual level, most Gentile Christians do not become Jews (with few exceptions); therefore they are not part of Israel on a spiritual level (although they may figuratively be "true Jews"). But they are spiritually in close proximity with Israel, and therefore are part of the commonwealth of Israel, on a spiritual plane.

I think it is disrespectful to Gentiles to insist that they must be Israel in order for them to have worth before God. As regards the New Covenant, we are all equal before God, there is no Jew nor Gentile.

The mixed multitude that came out of Egypt was not part of the commonwealth of Israel, but was actually adopted into Israel. They were under the Mosaic covenant.

listed said:

I'm very familiar with slang usage. Slang isn't technical in usage. You've got no valid point.

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The people that thought the world was flat were not stupid people. It was the best they could come up with, based solely upon a LACK OF INFORMATION.

All I am offering you is information.

It is NOT a slang term. Ask any Catholic! Or better yet, read history.

The Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest pontiff" or "greatest bridge-builder") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome.


Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia
The Collegium Pontificum (College of Pontiffs) was the most important (Sun Worshiping)priesthood of ancient Rome. The foundation of this sacred college and the office of Pontifex Maximus is attributed to the second king of Rome, Numa Pompilius


In the Roman Republic, the Pontifex Maximus was the highest office in the (Sun Worshiping)state religion of ancient Rome and directed the College of Pontiffs.

The Pontifex was not simply a priest. He had both political and religious authority.

It was a coveted position mainly for the great prestige it conferred on the holder; Julius Caesar became pontifex in 73 BC and pontifex maximus in 63 BC.



Even the early Christian Emperors continued to use it; it was only relinquished by Gratian, possibly in AD 376 at the time of his visit to Rome,


The last traces of Emperors being at the same time chief pontiffs are found in inscriptions of Valentinian I, Valens, and Gratian (Orelli, Inscript. n1117, 1118). From the time of Theodosius I (r 379–395), the emperors no longer appear in the dignity of pontiff, but the title was later applied to the Christian bishop of Rome


In December 2012 Pope Benedict XVI adopted @pontifex as his Twitter handle, prompting users to pose questions with the #askpontifex hashtag. This has been maintained by his successor Pope Francis, who now uses it as his Twitter handle.


PONTIFEX MAXIMUS
(greatest bridgebuilder between Gods and humans)

-Created by 2nd of 7 kings that first ruled Rome and title was held by them

-Held by HIGHEST PAGAN PRIEST in Roman Republic

-Held by Emperors in Romes Imperial Age

-Held by Catholic Popes since Emperor Theodosius.