Why I dislike Calvinism

FreeGrace2 · Oct 20, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
No way.

What 'service' does God call the unsaved to?

An unbeliever or someone who is not saved cannot even please God.

John 6:70 states that Jesus elected the 12, and one was a devil, which is a reference to Judas.

Please explain and include scripture to show this, because I do not believe there is any.

Done.

If this is your theology, it is in complete error and I'd like to help you.

Check out John 6:70-71.

Also, check out my thread here: The purpose of Election

You'll find that the people of Israel were a chosen nation. It should be obvious that many through the OT history of Israel were not saved. Yet, the people of Israel were chosen.

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 21, 2017

The discussion in which FreeGrace2 and I are currently engaged is simply another discussion revolving around ‘free’ will, original sin, the sovereignty of God, the attributes of God, the love of God, the irresistible nature of saving grace, the origin of saving faith, the extent of the atonement, the mediation of Christ, as well as the central purpose of Christ’s mission and its success or failure.

In other words, it has to do with a right or wrong understanding of the way of salvation, the work of God, the character of God, the grace of God and to whom the glory of salvation should be given.

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us (1 Cor. 2:12).

There is a controversy over what, exactly, God has freely given us and to whom He has freely given it.

Consider these eternal truths:

All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 3:16).

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth (John 16:13).

All believers are taught of God (John 6:45).

God does not teach confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

Therefore, it is impossible that confusion reign forever among true, mature, serious believers who are students of the Word.

It is certainly possible, and even likely, that true believers, though immature babes of the Word, would be confused over the ‘meat’ of the Word.

But those, like FreeGrace2, who openly debate and argue against the absolute predestination of the Elect contingent on nothing foreseen in the Elect, are not new to the Word.

In fact, he is known as a ‘senior veteran.’

So the question which must be asked and answered is, “Who is telling the truth?”

If the issues concerning these discussions were not of vital value, there would be no need to delve into them.

And had they not been declared clearly by the Holy Spirit for our edification, comfort and sanctification there would be no need to delve into them.

That being said, let us continue examining the arguments of FreeGrace2:

Matt 22:14 isn't about salvation. How would one go about showing that it is, from the context?

It should be noted Christ emphasized the use of Parables as a means to hide the mystery of the Kingdom of God from those to whom understanding is not given (Matt. 13:11).

Those to whom understanding is not given are considered ‘without,’ i.e., non-elect, outside Christ’s one sheepfold (Mark 4:11-12; John 10:16).

Here we have a clear description of that which is freely given to us believers, the Elect of God: understanding of the mysteries of God.

This parable concerns a marriage. The Christian reader should immediately recognize its parallel: the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:6-9).

We believers are the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:22-32).

We are now engaged and will soon be forever united (in a way not revealed) to Christ, our Bridegroom.

The Jews were the first group called to the wedding of the king’s son, Jesus Christ.

They refused, killing the prophets who called them.

God the Father then sent His servants, the Apostles and disciples, to invite the Gentiles to the marriage.

They were not to be discerning or biased as to who they invited.

All were welcome, from high society to the dregs of society.

However, when the king came in to view the guests, he saw a man who was not wearing the proper wedding clothes.

The ‘wedding clothes’ are symbolic of the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to the one who believes (1 Cor. 5:21).

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires (Romans 13:14).

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27).

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:13-14).

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints (Rev. 19:7-8).

The examination of the guests’ clothing is analogous to the Judgment of the Goats and the Sheep.

The goats are symbolic of the non-elect: unbelievers who professed Christ as Lord and Savior yet were unregenerate religious, living a life of feigned holiness.

The man who was bound and cast into outer darkness is representative of all those many pseudo-Christians who will be revealed and condemned on that Great Day of Judgment.

The rejected wedding guest was called by the Gospel, as are all who name the name of Christ.

He desired to attend the marriage supper of the Lamb, as do all who name the name of Christ.

Yet he was rejected as one unfit, unprepared and unworthy of attendance because he was profane, defiled and self willed.

Jesus forewarns all who name the name of Christ, who were called by the Gospel:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matthew 7:22-23).

Christ concludes the Parable of the Marriage Supper with a similar sober, ominous truth:

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many are called by the Gospel. Many heed the call of the Gospel.

Many serve in the visible churches, desiring marriage and eternal salvation with the Bridegroom.

Yet many will be rejected. Why?

They were not chosen by the Father for marriage with His Son.

They were not of the Elect, known by Christ, given Him by the Father.

Those freely chosen by the Father will make their calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).

Peter understands one’s calling does not guarantee one’s election.

Calling unto service does not guarantee election unto salvation.

However, those freely chosen/elected by the Father, given to Christ for salvation, are guaranteed eternal life:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand (John 10:27-29).

TO BE CONTINUED

FreeGrace2 · Oct 21, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
The discussion in which FreeGrace2 and I are currently engaged is simply another discussion revolving around ‘free’ will, original sin, the sovereignty of God, the attributes of God, the love of God, the irresistible nature of saving grace, the origin of saving faith, the extent of the atonement, the mediation of Christ, as well as the central purpose of Christ’s mission and its success or failure.

No. It's simply about the doctrine of election, which is NOT election to salvation.

As yet, iconbusters has failed to provide any verse that says salvation is by election.

In other words, it has to do with a right or wrong understanding of the way of salvation, the work of God, the character of God, the grace of God and to whom the glory of salvation should be given.

False.

There is a controversy over what, exactly, God has freely given us and to whom He has freely given it.

No there isn't.

Consider these eternal truths:

All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 3:16).

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth (John 16:13).

All believers are taught of God (John 6:45).

God does not teach confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

Therefore, it is impossible that confusion reign forever among true, mature, serious believers who are students of the Word.

Absolutely true. Why anyone, including IB would think I disagree with any of this is beyond reason.

It is certainly possible, and even likely, that true believers, though immature babes of the Word, would be confused over the ‘meat’ of the Word.

What is clear is that reformed have failed to properly understand the doctrine of election.

But those, like FreeGrace2, who openly debate and argue against the absolute predestination of the Elect contingent on nothing foreseen in the Elect, are not new to the Word.

Once again, IB shows his failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth. He's provided zero verses that say that salvation is by election, yet that's what he believes.

In fact, he is known as a ‘senior veteran.’

So the question which must be asked and answered is, “Who is telling the truth?”

The truth is shown from Scripture, which IB continues to NOT quote in support of his (or reformed) opinions and theories.

However, I have provided ample evidence from Scripture that directly supports my understanding of the doctrine of election, which IB has failed to refute in any way.

My thread can be found here: The purpose of Election

If the issues concerning these discussions were not of vital value, there would be no need to delve into them.

Absolutely the issues of rightly dividing the Word of Truth is of vital concern and value.

It should be noted Christ emphasized the use of Parables as a means to hide the mystery of the Kingdom of God from those to whom understanding is not given (Matt. 13:11).

OK, here's a veiled attempt to claim that Calvinism has been given the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, which is hid from everyone else (non-Calvinists).

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matthew 7:22-23).

Actually, v.21 is included in this passage. But, to the point, it's clear from the FACT of the basis upon which this crowd appealed to Jesus as to entrance into the kingdom, that they were never believers. Their whole appeal was based on their works.

Which is why Jesus said "I never knew (in an intimate relational sense) you." They weren't believers. They were religious people trying to work their way into heaven.

Calling unto service does not guarantee election unto salvation.

More confusion. Both "calling" and 'election' are about service.

DeaconDean · Oct 21, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
The discussion in which FreeGrace2 and I are currently engaged is simply another discussion revolving around ‘free’ will, original sin, the sovereignty of God, the attributes of God, the love of God, the irresistible nature of saving grace, the origin of saving faith, the extent of the atonement, the mediation of Christ, as well as the central purpose of Christ’s mission and its success or failure.

In other words, it has to do with a right or wrong understanding of the way of salvation, the work of God, the character of God, the grace of God and to whom the glory of salvation should be given.

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us (1 Cor. 2:12).

There is a controversy over what, exactly, God has freely given us and to whom He has freely given it.

Consider these eternal truths:

All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 3:16).

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth (John 16:13).

All believers are taught of God (John 6:45).

God does not teach confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

Therefore, it is impossible that confusion reign forever among true, mature, serious believers who are students of the Word.

It is certainly possible, and even likely, that true believers, though immature babes of the Word, would be confused over the ‘meat’ of the Word.

But those, like FreeGrace2, who openly debate and argue against the absolute predestination of the Elect contingent on nothing foreseen in the Elect, are not new to the Word.

In fact, he is known as a ‘senior veteran.’

So the question which must be asked and answered is, “Who is telling the truth?”

If the issues concerning these discussions were not of vital value, there would be no need to delve into them.

And had they not been declared clearly by the Holy Spirit for our edification, comfort and sanctification there would be no need to delve into them.

That being said, let us continue examining the arguments of FreeGrace2:

It should be noted Christ emphasized the use of Parables as a means to hide the mystery of the Kingdom of God from those to whom understanding is not given (Matt. 13:11).

Those to whom understanding is not given are considered ‘without,’ i.e., non-elect, outside Christ’s one sheepfold (Mark 4:11-12; John 10:16).

Here we have a clear description of that which is freely given to us believers, the Elect of God: understanding of the mysteries of God.

This parable concerns a marriage. The Christian reader should immediately recognize its parallel: the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:6-9).

We believers are the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:22-32).

We are now engaged and will soon be forever united (in a way not revealed) to Christ, our Bridegroom.

The Jews were the first group called to the wedding of the king’s son, Jesus Christ.

They refused, killing the prophets who called them.

God the Father then sent His servants, the Apostles and disciples, to invite the Gentiles to the marriage.

They were not to be discerning or biased as to who they invited.

All were welcome, from high society to the dregs of society.

However, when the king came in to view the guests, he saw a man who was not wearing the proper wedding clothes.

The ‘wedding clothes’ are symbolic of the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to the one who believes (1 Cor. 5:21).

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires (Romans 13:14).

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27).

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:13-14).

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints (Rev. 19:7-8).

The examination of the guests’ clothing is analogous to the Judgment of the Goats and the Sheep.

The goats are symbolic of the non-elect: unbelievers who professed Christ as Lord and Savior yet were unregenerate religious, living a life of feigned holiness.

The man who was bound and cast into outer darkness is representative of all those many pseudo-Christians who will be revealed and condemned on that Great Day of Judgment.

The rejected wedding guest was called by the Gospel, as are all who name the name of Christ.

He desired to attend the marriage supper of the Lamb, as do all who name the name of Christ.

Yet he was rejected as one unfit, unprepared and unworthy of attendance because he was profane, defiled and self willed.

Jesus forewarns all who name the name of Christ, who were called by the Gospel:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matthew 7:22-23).

Christ concludes the Parable of the Marriage Supper with a similar sober, ominous truth:

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many are called by the Gospel. Many heed the call of the Gospel.

Many serve in the visible churches, desiring marriage and eternal salvation with the Bridegroom.

Yet many will be rejected. Why?

They were not chosen by the Father for marriage with His Son.

They were not of the Elect, known by Christ, given Him by the Father.

Those freely chosen by the Father will make their calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).

Peter understands one’s calling does not guarantee one’s election.

Calling unto service does not guarantee election unto salvation.

However, those freely chosen/elected by the Father, given to Christ for salvation, are guaranteed eternal life:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand (John 10:27-29).

TO BE CONTINUED

Brother, you and I have shown from both scriptures and the Greek where this member is wrong.

Sooner or later your going to have to give up.

People like that, just keep many of us (Calvinists) out of here.

Sooner or later your gonna have to say "Ichabod"!

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2017

DeaconDean said:
Brother, you and I have shown from both scriptures and the Greek where this member is wrong.

Neither of you has shown ANY Scripture that says salvation is by election.

Sooner or later your going to have to give up.

When either of you, or anyone else, can provide ANY Scripture that teaches that salvation is by election, I'll give up.

People like that, just keep many of us (Calvinists) out of here.

How am I keeping anyone "out of here"? The truth is that Calvinists leave when they finally realize they have NO verses that teach salvation is by election.

Sooner or later your gonna have to say "Ichabod"!

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

ToBeLoved · Oct 22, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
John 6:70 states that Jesus elected the 12, and one was a devil, which is a reference to Judas.

So you consider unsaved Judas in service to God through salvation? How does that make any sense.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
So you consider unsaved Judas in service to God through salvation? How does that make any sense.

It doesn't make any sense, and I never said anything about election to salvation, which I have demonstrated from Scripture in my thread here: The purpose of Election

My whole point about election is that it is to service, NOT to salvation. I believe I've made that quite clear.

Yes, Judas was chosen, for John 6:70 directly says so. But it should be clear to folk that he was elected for service; that of betraying the Son, as Scripture prophesied.

He most certainly was not saved ever. Which supports my point; election isn't about salvation, but about service.

It seems folk cannot separate the notion that election is to salvation, even when the point has been made that it isn't.

ToBeLoved · Oct 23, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
The discussion in which FreeGrace2 and I are currently engaged is simply another discussion revolving around ‘free’ will, original sin, the sovereignty of God, the attributes of God, the love of God, the irresistible nature of saving grace, the origin of saving faith, the extent of the atonement, the mediation of Christ, as well as the central purpose of Christ’s mission and its success or failure.

In other words, it has to do with a right or wrong understanding of the way of salvation, the work of God, the character of God, the grace of God and to whom the glory of salvation should be given.

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us (1 Cor. 2:12).

There is a controversy over what, exactly, God has freely given us and to whom He has freely given it.

Consider these eternal truths:

All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 3:16).

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth (John 16:13).

All believers are taught of God (John 6:45).

God does not teach confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

Therefore, it is impossible that confusion reign forever among true, mature, serious believers who are students of the Word.

It is certainly possible, and even likely, that true believers, though immature babes of the Word, would be confused over the ‘meat’ of the Word.

But those, like FreeGrace2, who openly debate and argue against the absolute predestination of the Elect contingent on nothing foreseen in the Elect, are not new to the Word.

In fact, he is known as a ‘senior veteran.’

So the question which must be asked and answered is, “Who is telling the truth?”

If the issues concerning these discussions were not of vital value, there would be no need to delve into them.

And had they not been declared clearly by the Holy Spirit for our edification, comfort and sanctification there would be no need to delve into them.

That being said, let us continue examining the arguments of FreeGrace2:

It should be noted Christ emphasized the use of Parables as a means to hide the mystery of the Kingdom of God from those to whom understanding is not given (Matt. 13:11).

Those to whom understanding is not given are considered ‘without,’ i.e., non-elect, outside Christ’s one sheepfold (Mark 4:11-12; John 10:16).

Here we have a clear description of that which is freely given to us believers, the Elect of God: understanding of the mysteries of God.

This parable concerns a marriage. The Christian reader should immediately recognize its parallel: the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:6-9).

We believers are the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:22-32).

We are now engaged and will soon be forever united (in a way not revealed) to Christ, our Bridegroom.

The Jews were the first group called to the wedding of the king’s son, Jesus Christ.

They refused, killing the prophets who called them.

God the Father then sent His servants, the Apostles and disciples, to invite the Gentiles to the marriage.

They were not to be discerning or biased as to who they invited.

All were welcome, from high society to the dregs of society.

However, when the king came in to view the guests, he saw a man who was not wearing the proper wedding clothes.

The ‘wedding clothes’ are symbolic of the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to the one who believes (1 Cor. 5:21).

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires (Romans 13:14).

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27).

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:13-14).

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints (Rev. 19:7-8).

The examination of the guests’ clothing is analogous to the Judgment of the Goats and the Sheep.

The goats are symbolic of the non-elect: unbelievers who professed Christ as Lord and Savior yet were unregenerate religious, living a life of feigned holiness.

The man who was bound and cast into outer darkness is representative of all those many pseudo-Christians who will be revealed and condemned on that Great Day of Judgment.

The rejected wedding guest was called by the Gospel, as are all who name the name of Christ.

He desired to attend the marriage supper of the Lamb, as do all who name the name of Christ.

Yet he was rejected as one unfit, unprepared and unworthy of attendance because he was profane, defiled and self willed.

Jesus forewarns all who name the name of Christ, who were called by the Gospel:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matthew 7:22-23).

Christ concludes the Parable of the Marriage Supper with a similar sober, ominous truth:

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many are called by the Gospel. Many heed the call of the Gospel.

Many serve in the visible churches, desiring marriage and eternal salvation with the Bridegroom.

Yet many will be rejected. Why?

They were not chosen by the Father for marriage with His Son.

They were not of the Elect, known by Christ, given Him by the Father.

Those freely chosen by the Father will make their calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).

Peter understands one’s calling does not guarantee one’s election.

Calling unto service does not guarantee election unto salvation.

However, those freely chosen/elected by the Father, given to Christ for salvation, are guaranteed eternal life:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand (John 10:27-29).

TO BE CONTINUED

How many is many?

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 23, 2017

Let us this day continue in our journey seeking God’s truth, His Word being the measure of eternal truth.

FreeGrace2 asked:

Is this a reference to Matt 7:21-23? If so, it seems the point was that there will be many very religious people who believed that they must work for entrance into the kingdom, like the RCC, for example, and Mormons. The whole basis for that crowd's appeal for entering the kingdom was their works.

Yes, it is a reference to Matt. 7:21-23.

It is true these reprobate thought they were sanctified Christians. They cited their works as proof. In other words, they claimed their ‘election to service’ was sufficient proof of their salvation.

But, alas, ‘election to service’ is not sufficient proof of salvation.

FreeGrace2 insists ‘election’ is unto service – not salvation.

However, Jesus teaches a much different election.

It is an election whereby the Father chooses specific unbelieving, hate filled sinners for salvation before they did anything positive or favorable, including believing on His Son.

Paul goes into an extraordinary discourse regarding this very subject in Romans 9:6-13.

It is the Father who determines the children of promise; i.e., those who will spend eternity with Him.

His determination is contingent upon nothing foreseen in man which could possibly influence His election.

Paul makes this astounding assertion when he states:

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth (verse 11).

The purposes of God are eternal (Ephesians 3:11; Acts 15:18).

All His purposes are according to the good pleasure of His will (Ephesians 1:5).

God’s eternal will of purpose has no cause outside of Himself (Ephesians 1:9).

This is because all creatures that now exist or will exist are entirely dependent on God for their existence (Psalm 100:3; Acts 17:28).

There is no higher cause than the will of God (Romans 9:16).

Therefore, the purpose of God according to election has nothing to do with works – ‘not of works,’ says Paul, but rather is concerning the salvation of the children of promise.

And because election unto salvation is an election of grace (Romans 11:5), it is impossible man’s merit is a factor in his election.

Otherwise grace is no more grace (Romans 11:6).

With these basic biblical principles in mind, let us return to Matt. 7:22-23:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rather than accuse the pseudo-Christians of a lack of faith, Jesus makes a rather bewildering statement: I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Certainly, as God, Jesus knew all He created. So we can discount ignorance on His part.

Rather Jesus is speaking of knowing those He loved, those loved by the Father who were given to Him for the eternal purpose of saving their souls.

The Good Shepherd knows His sheep (John 10:14).

The Good Shepherd gives them only eternal life (John 10:28).

The Good Shepherd died on their behalf only (John 10:11, 15).

They are the same sheep given Him by the Father (John 10:29).

Christ gives eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him (John 17:2).

Christ only prays for those given Him by the Father (John 17:9).

The Father did not give Christ all the world of men to save, the Pharisees included (John 10:26).

Those pseudo-Christians referred to in Matt. 7 are also not among those sheep given Jesus.

Thus the reason for Christ to exclaim, I NEVER AT ANY TIME KNEW YOU AS LOVED BY MY FATHER AND GIVEN ME FOR THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.

Therefore, devoid of sanctifying grace all their works of service were corrupt, self-serving and, ultimately, unrighteous.

TO BE CONTINUED

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 23, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
How many is many?

According to the dictionary, 'many' is a large number and 'few' is a small number.

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 23, 2017

DeaconDean said:
Brother, you and I have shown from both scriptures and the Greek where this member is wrong.

Sooner or later your going to have to give up.

People like that, just keep many of us (Calvinists) out of here.

Sooner or later your gonna have to say "Ichabod"!

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

LOL I understand your point. It's well taken. Fortunately there are a few who read these posts with an open mind. It is to them I direct my responses.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 24, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
Let us this day continue in our journey seeking God’s truth, His Word being the measure of eternal truth.

We certainly agree on this!

FreeGrace2 asked:
"Is this a reference to Matt 7:21-23? If so, it seems the point was that there will be many very religious people who believed that they must work for entrance into the kingdom, like the RCC, for example, and Mormons. The whole basis for that crowd's appeal for entering the kingdom was their works."

Yes, it is a reference to Matt. 7:21-23.

It is true these reprobate thought they were sanctified Christians.

No. They were religionists, just like the Pharisees, who thought their own "good works" would get them into heaven. Like the liberal protestant churches of today.

They cited their works as proof. In other words, they claimed their ‘election to service’ was sufficient proof of their salvation.

Interesting opinion, but no such thing. There was no election in their minds. Just a system of salvation by works. Period. That's ALL there is in what Jesus said about them.

But, alas, ‘election to service’ is not sufficient proof of salvation.

I never suggested election is proof of salvation. In fact, my point all along has been that election is NOT even about salvation. That God elects both believers and unbelievers for various kinds of service. Apparently that point is still over your head.

FreeGrace2 insists ‘election’ is unto service – not salvation.

OK I take that back. Seems my point is at least being understood. And proved by the link I've given on the purpose of election, which you seem quite unwilling to address point by point.

However, Jesus teaches a much different election.

Where did Jesus teach that salvation is by election?

In fact, He taught that salvation is by faith in Him.

It is an election whereby the Father chooses specific unbelieving, hate filled sinners for salvation before they did anything positive or favorable, including believing on His Son.

Besides being a talking point only, where does the Bible actually teach this?

Just frequently repeating a statement does not magically make it true. Ever.

Paul goes into an extraordinary discourse regarding this very subject in Romans 9:6-13.

So, let's examine the passage:
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

OK, the only verse that mentions "election" is v.11. And what we learn from v.11 is that there is PURPOSE in election. But an actual purpose wasn't stated. Why? Because there are MANY purposes in election. iow, God chooses people for different kinds of service. But all elections are about service, which was demonstrated by the examples I gave in the thread "purpose of election".

It is the Father who determines the children of promise; i.e., those who will spend eternity with Him.

What is that promise based on? Faith. Of course.

His determination is contingent upon nothing foreseen in man which could possibly influence His election.

You are in great error.

Paul makes this astounding assertion when he states:

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth (verse 11).

Again, demonstrating that election has purpose. But nowhere is salvation even mentioned in this passage. So your conclusion is faulty.

The purposes of God are eternal (Ephesians 3:11; Acts 15:18).

True, but doesn't support your opinion.

All His purposes are according to the good pleasure of His will (Ephesians 1:5).

True again, and doesn't support your opinion.

God’s eternal will of purpose has no cause outside of Himself (Ephesians 1:9).

Still doesn't support your opinion.

This is because all creatures that now exist or will exist are entirely dependent on God for their existence (Psalm 100:3; Acts 17:28).

True, and still doesn't support your opinion.

There is no higher cause than the will of God (Romans 9:16).

Ditto.

Therefore, the purpose of God according to election has nothing to do with works – ‘not of works,’ says Paul, but rather is concerning the salvation of the children of promise.

Where did Paul write "concerning the salvation of the children of promise"?

btw, of course God's election has nothing to do with works. God's election is NOT dependent upon anything man does. It's unconditional.

And because election unto salvation is an election of grace (Romans 11:5), it is impossible man’s merit is a factor in his election.

OK, let's examine that verse:
"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace."

What is Paul talking about here? That salvation is by grace, not by works. See Rom 4:4,5 for details.

And don't forget that "we are saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH". Eph 2:8, another verse written by Paul.

What is immediately obvious is that the reformed doctrine that salvation is by unconditional election is refuted by the FACT that we saved through faith, which is a condition for salvation.

Otherwise grace is no more grace (Romans 11:6).

Of course.

With these basic biblical principles in mind, let us return to Matt. 7:22-23:

Just note that I've addressed ALL your comments (unlike your style) and refuted your claims.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rather than accuse the pseudo-Christians of a lack of faith, Jesus makes a rather bewildering statement: I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Certainly, as God, Jesus knew all He created. So we can discount ignorance on His part.

Rather Jesus is speaking of knowing those He loved, those loved by the Father who were given to Him for the eternal purpose of saving their souls.

Obviously NOT. He was speaking of NOT knowing in an intimate sense those religionists who were working (or thought they were) their way to heaven.

The Good Shepherd knows His sheep (John 10:14).
The Good Shepherd gives them only eternal life (John 10:28).
The Good Shepherd died on their behalf only (John 10:11, 15).
They are the same sheep given Him by the Father (John 10:29).
Christ gives eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him (John 17:2).
Christ only prays for those given Him by the Father (John 17:9).

How do any of these excellent verses teach that salvation is by election?

The Father did not give Christ all the world of men to save, the Pharisees included (John 10:26).

OK, you want to go down that road? Fine. Let's do.

The Bible teaches that Christ died for ALL, not "all the elect" as the reformed believe.
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 2 Cor 5

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

There it is, in red and white: Christ died for ALL, for EVERYONE. But go ahead and just try to show from the context that the writers were only defining "the elect".

But there's more:
John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.” Do you suppose these ignorant Samaritans really knew all about the reformed talking points and that in "selected" verses, "world" really only means "world of the elect"? Yeah, sure.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Those pseudo-Christians referred to in Matt. 7 are also not among those sheep given Jesus.

Again, they were religionists trying to work their way into heaven. And since you bring up "sheep", let's examine John 10:9, the chapter that speaks a lot about sheep.

v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

So, what do you suppose "enters through me" means? That those who were chosen before they entered the gate? Really? Not hardly.

Again, salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH. There IS a condition for being saved, and that condition is to "enter through Christ", the gate by faith.

Thus the reason for Christ to exclaim, I NEVER AT ANY TIME KNEW YOU AS LOVED BY MY FATHER AND GIVEN ME FOR THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.

Which verse says this?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 24, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
LOL I understand your point. It's well taken. Fortunately there are a few who read these posts with an open mind. It is to them I direct my responses.

For those "fortunate few", I invite them to read the OP of my thread here: The purpose of Election that demonstrates that election is for service, with examples.

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 24, 2017

Today it is necessary to address another popular misconception presented by FreeGrace2:

Scripture clearly indicates who God chooses for salvation; believers. That's who He chooses. We see the principle in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

No question we are justified by faith. The issue in controversy centers around the question, ‘From whence cometh our saving faith?’

There are only three options:

1. From ourselves.

2. From God.

3. From a combination of the two.

If faith comes from ourselves, then Ephesians 2:8 should have stated, ‘By grace are ye saved through faith which is of yourself, it is not the gift of God…….’

If faith is a synergistic effort of both God and John Q. Public, then John Q. Public has much in which to boast and glory. For his efforts resulted in saving faith, while his neighbor’s efforts did not.

But alas, our Lord will not share His glory with another (Isaiah 42:8).

However, if saving faith is the unmerited gift of God to His Elect, one would expect Scripture to declare as much.

And it does:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (ESV).

No Christian denies grace is the unmerited gift of God.

However, many professing Christians deny faith is also the unmerited gift of God.

Thus, the need for Paul to clarify by stating unequivocally our saving faith is the gift of God.

As fallen rebellious creatures dead in sins and trespasses we have neither the capacity, power or desire to believe on His Son.

Saving faith is an efficacious grace which God gives all those He elects/chooses for salvation.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

‘Ordained to eternal life’ is simply another biblical expression which denotes God’s electing and choosing certain sinful individuals for salvation.

Although this fact escapes the exegetical judgment of FreeGrace2, it has not escaped the exegetical judgment of Christians over the millennia.

Belief comes as a result of an ordination (aka ‘eternal decree’) by God.

In eternity God decreed/ordained that John Q. Public will be saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Included in that decree (among numerous other gifts) is the bestowal of saving faith.

Had FreeGrace2 studied that which Paul was teaching 3 verses earlier he would have discovered it took the almighty power of God to give the Corinthians faith which saves:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God (1 Cor. 1:18).

And then there is 1 Cor. 2:5 which corroborates the aforementioned Scripture:

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

This subject – the origin of saving faith – is so important that Paul stresses this fact to the Ephesians:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places (Ephesians 1:18-20).

We believe because God exerted upon us the same mighty resurrecting power which raised Christ from the dead.

To God alone be the glory for our saving faith.

TO BE CONTINUED

MDC · Oct 24, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
Today it is necessary to address another popular misconception presented by FreeGrace2:

No question we are justified by faith. The issue in controversy centers around the question, ‘From whence cometh our saving faith?’

There are only three options:

1. From ourselves.

2. From God.

3. From a combination of the two.

If faith comes from ourselves, then Ephesians 2:8 should have stated, ‘By grace are ye saved through faith which is of yourself, it is not the gift of God…….’

If faith is a synergistic effort of both God and John Q. Public, then John Q. Public has much in which to boast and glory. For his efforts resulted in saving faith, while his neighbor’s efforts did not.

But alas, our Lord will not share His glory with another (Isaiah 42:8).

However, if saving faith is the unmerited gift of God to His Elect, one would expect Scripture to declare as much.

And it does:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (ESV).

No Christian denies grace is the unmerited gift of God.

However, many professing Christians deny faith is also the unmerited gift of God.

Thus, the need for Paul to clarify by stating unequivocally our saving faith is the gift of God.

As fallen rebellious creatures dead in sins and trespasses we have neither the capacity, power or desire to believe on His Son.

Saving faith is an efficacious grace which God gives all those He elects/chooses for salvation.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

‘Ordained to eternal life’ is simply another biblical expression which denotes God’s electing and choosing certain sinful individuals for salvation.

Although this fact escapes the exegetical judgment of FreeGrace2, it has not escaped the exegetical judgment of Christians over the millennia.

Belief comes as a result of an ordination (aka ‘eternal decree’) by God.

In eternity God decreed/ordained that John Q. Public will be saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Included in that decree (among numerous other gifts) is the bestowal of saving faith.

Had FreeGrace2 studied that which Paul was teaching 3 verses earlier he would have discovered it took the almighty power of God to give the Corinthians faith which saves:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God (1 Cor. 1:18).

And then there is 1 Cor. 2:5 which corroborates the aforementioned Scripture:

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

This subject – the origin of saving faith – is so important that Paul stresses this fact to the Ephesians:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places (Ephesians 1:18-20).

We believe because God exerted upon us the same mighty resurrecting power which raised Christ from the dead.

To God alone be the glory for our saving faith.

TO BE CONTINUED

Very well said brother! To God Alone be the glory in Christ Jesus

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
Today it is necessary to address another popular misconception presented by FreeGrace2:

But, before we do this, let's just recall that IB hasn't even tried to respond my posts and refutations. But we shouldn't wonder why.

OK, now, on to more fun.

I said this:

"Scripture clearly indicates who God chooses for salvation; believers. That's who He chooses. We see the principle in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

No question we are justified by faith. The issue in controversy centers around the question, ‘From whence cometh our saving faith?’

No, not really. The question that I have posed continues: where does the Bible say that salvation is by election? Mr. IB has no answer for that question.

There are only three options:

1. From ourselves.
2. From God.
3. From a combination of the two.

Let's realize that "saving faith" isn't an action, but an item. We know from Rom 10:9-10 that man "believes from the heart". So we know where the ACTION occurs from.

But saving faith is what IS believed, which of course comes from God alone. So, the correct answer to MR IB's question is #2.

If faith comes from ourselves, then Ephesians 2:8 should have stated, ‘By grace are ye saved through faith which is of yourself, it is not the gift of God…….’

I've never argued that the substance of what we must believe in order to be saved comes from within ourselves. That would be totally ridiculous. The substance is called the Gospel. That comes directly from God. Which we must believe in order to be saved.

This is supported by 1 Cor 1:21, which is quoted above.

However, if saving faith is the unmerited gift of God to His Elect, one would expect Scripture to declare as much.

And it does:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (ESV).

The error here is to think that the "it" in the last phrase refers to faith. In fact, it refers back to "you have been saved", or, salvation. It is salvation that is God's Christmas present to mankind.

Paul described it this way in Rom 6:23 - but the gift of God is eternal life.

Thus, the need for Paul to clarify by stating unequivocally our saving faith is the gift of God.

He never said such. The genders only match for "gift of God" and "have been saved". "Faith" is another gender and doesn't match "gift of God".

As fallen rebellious creatures dead in sins and trespasses we have neither the capacity, power or desire to believe on His Son.

This oft quoted talking point of the reformed cannot be shown from Scripture.

Saving faith is an efficacious grace which God gives all those He elects/chooses for salvation.

More talking points. No Scripture that salvation is by eection.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

‘Ordained to eternal life’ is simply another biblical expression which denotes God’s electing and choosing certain sinful individuals for salvation.

Ah, one of my favorites.

First, we note that the word "ordained" is the Greek word 'tasso' and none of the other 7 uses of the word are translated either "ordained" or "appointed". It comes from a military usage involving lining up or arranging in order.

So, what in the world was Luke meaning? Well, the context gives us a clear picture of what the Gentiles were doing when Paul and company reconvened the next Sabbath:
42As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.
43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

Pretty clear, really. The phrase "almost the whole city gathered to hear..." shows who was lining up to "hear the word of the Lord". There was great interest in what Paul was preaching.

Second, The verb is in a tense that is exactly the same form for both middle and passive voice. So what, you may ask? Glad you asked. The only way to determine which voice was meant is from context. If Luke meant passive voice, then, yes, their "appointment/ordaining" was from someone else, like God, for example. But, if he meant the middle voice, then the action was produced by themselves ON THEMSELVES.

Which is what we see here from v.44. They lined themselves up on the next Sabbath to hear the word of the Lord.

If Luke meant to communicate that God appoints or ordains people to eternal life, then he would have used "horizo", and in the passive voice. But he didn't.

Although this fact escapes the exegetical judgment of FreeGrace2, it has not escaped the exegetical judgment of Christians over the millennia.

So now Mr IB claims some kind of exegesis?? Really? Well, I just busted that icon.

Belief comes as a result of an ordination (aka ‘eternal decree’) by God.

Nope.

In eternity God decreed/ordained that John Q. Public will be saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Nope.

Had FreeGrace2 studied that which Paul was teaching 3 verses earlier he would have discovered it took the almighty power of God to give the Corinthians faith which saves:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God (1 Cor. 1:18).

I wish Mr IB would explain how this verse supports his claim that salvation is by election. The verse clearly teaches that our salvation is by the power of God.

There is nothing in that verse about election.

And then there is 1 Cor. 2:5 which corroborates the aforementioned Scripture:

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Ditto here.

This subject – the origin of saving faith – is so important that Paul stresses this fact to the Ephesians:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places (Ephesians 1:18-20).

Amen. Faith, which is what we believe to be true, came from God. It's His plan all the way. All we can do is believe what He says. And 1 Cor 1:21 says that God is pleased to save those who believe.

If salvation were by election, then 1 Cor 1:21 would have said this:
"God was pleased to save those he chose." But he didn't.

And Paul's answer to the jailer would have been:
"There's nothing you must do to be saved. God already chose for salvation from eternity past."

To God alone be the glory for our saving faith.

Of course. I hope Mr IB doesn't think I have any glory in my ability to believe. Everyone has that ability. The Bible teaches that many refuse to believe. Showing and proving that they had the ability to believe.
Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

What's clear is that one cannot refuse to do what one cannot do.

Acts 28:24 - Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.

Note that "would not believe" is different than "could not believe".

TO BE CONTINUED

Yes, the "schooling" continues.

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 25, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
No way.

What 'service' does God call the unsaved to?

An unbeliever or someone who is not saved cannot even please God.

Please explain and include scripture to show this, because I do not believe there is any.

If this is your theology, it is in complete error and I'd like to help you.

Scripture declares everything God does has a purpose and a time for that purpose (Eccles. 3).

Therefore, every human born has a purpose for being.

All will serve God's purpose.

That purpose is to ultimately bring glory to his Creator (Phil. 2:11).

Both believers (the Elect) and unbelievers (the Reprobate) will bring God glory.

The Elect glorify God’s grace for they are vessels of mercy to the praise of His glorious grace (Romans 9:23

The Reprobate will glorify God’s justice for they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction to the praise of His glorious justice (Romans 9:22).

Pharaoh was born for a specific purpose.

He served the will of God.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth (Romans 9:17).

It is true Pharaoh was destined to drown in the Red Sea.

Nothing could change his destiny because it was foreordained by God’s immutable eternal counsel which will certainly come to pass (Daniel 4:35; Isaiah 46:10; Eph. 1:11).

Although Pharaoh’s purpose resulted in his ultimate demise, he served God’s glorious purpose.

For it was through God’s just judgments of plagues and miracles that the name, absolute power and authority of Israel’s God would be known and feared by all.

All mankind will serve God’s purposes.

Even heretics serve God’s purpose:

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you (1Cor. 11:19).

Tragically, there will be many on the Great Day of Judgment who sincerely believe they were serving God in Spirit and truth when, in fact, they were doing the Devil’s bidding.

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service (John 16:2).

ICONBUSTERS · Oct 25, 2017

MDC said:
Very well said brother! To God Alone be the glory in Christ Jesus

Thank you, brother, for your kind words!

ToBeLoved · Oct 25, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
So you consider unsaved Judas in service to God through salvation? How does that make any sense.

Well that was the brunt of the conversation.

Are the unsaved called to service and you gave Judas as an example of who Jesus called to service.

I said no one can even please God before they are saved.

ToBeLoved · Oct 25, 2017

ICONBUSTERS said:
Scripture declares everything God does has a purpose and a time for that purpose (Eccles. 3).

Therefore, every human born has a purpose for being.

All will serve God's purpose.

That purpose is to ultimately bring glory to his Creator (Phil. 2:11).

Both believers (the Elect) and unbelievers (the Reprobate) will bring God glory.

The Elect glorify God’s grace for they are vessels of mercy to the praise of His glorious grace (Romans 9:23

The Reprobate will glorify God’s justice for they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction to the praise of His glorious justice (Romans 9:22).

Pharaoh was born for a specific purpose.

He served the will of God.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth (Romans 9:17).

It is true Pharaoh was destined to drown in the Red Sea.

Nothing could change his destiny because it was foreordained by God’s immutable eternal counsel which will certainly come to pass (Daniel 4:35; Isaiah 46:10; Eph. 1:11).

Although Pharaoh’s purpose resulted in his ultimate demise, he served God’s glorious purpose.

For it was through God’s just judgments of plagues and miracles that the name, absolute power and authority of Israel’s God would be known and feared by all.

All mankind will serve God’s purposes.

Even heretics serve God’s purpose:

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you (1Cor. 11:19).

Tragically, there will be many on the Great Day of Judgment who sincerely believe they were serving God in Spirit and truth when, in fact, they were doing the Devil’s bidding.

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service (John 16:2).

Those God calls to service have to be God’s. Maybe you are saying that God’s overall will is done either way, but one is only in service to their master.

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